Re: The Coronavirus Thread - Part 2

[RealGunner]

Deaths continue to spiral in Italy. Official figures show 793 have died of Covid-19 in the last 24 hours - another daily record.

In total 4,825 people have now died across the country.

More than 53,500 have been diagnosed with the virus nationally, up more than 6,500 since yesterday.

[Babun]

My condolences to all Italians here, I've got no words.

[rincon]

Deaths continue to spiral in Italy. Official figures show 793 have died of Covid-19 in the last 24 hours - another daily record.

In total 4,825 people have now died across the country.

More than 53,500 have been diagnosed with the virus nationally, up more than 6,500 since yesterday.

550 of these in Lombardia. Horrifying

[Robespierre]

My condolences to all Italians here, I've got no words.

I fear it will be our Vietnam also because of emotive choc in the following period, especially for who'll live it directly.
The difference is that we don't have desired to fight this war.

[Hapless_Hans]

I know all of that, which is exactly why i said to Unique that these havent been decisions by the doctors and scientists. These are decisions from the politicians.

Ok, I guess my point was, and which I think reconciles both of your arguments somewhat, that I don't even think there such an enormous discrepancy between what doctors have demanded and politics have done, at least not from what I gather in Germany.
The gradual tightening of measures by the goverment was very much in keeping of what doctors said at any given time, if with a certain delay.

Even in Italy, I'm not even sure what could have been done radically differently (apart from the leaking info of the shutdown of Lombardia?).
It seems to me Italy was wrongfooted by this, by the time the virus had grown into the European public consciousness, Northern Italy quite apparently was already massively infected, and then people already started to die (which is only now starting in Germany).

We can talk about the state of our health care systems, I'm of the strong opinion that the combined ideologies of privatization and austerity measures have weakened the German one badly, and surely the ones of other countries too..
If we would have afforded more hospital beds to begin with, we wouldn't maybe have to throw literally trillions at this now in order to finance a complete shutdown to prevent overstraining.. but I'm not sure to what degree exactly a pandemic like this could be mitigated by that

And anyway that wouldn't be a critique of the acute crisis response

I have the feeling that the authorities have responded with relative responsibility and deliberation (I say that as a harsh, bitter and unapologetic critic of all those politicians, Spahn, Merkel, Söder, involved), and the people have responded with quite some civility, soidarity and also compliance.

I realize things will get worse, and might become terribly worse, and it won't look reasonable and civil anymore. But also then I don't think it's a blame game, it's something to get through together.

[iftikhar]

So Rincon, RG, Nish and Firenze all seems to be fine. Good. Hope Vibe gets well too, soon.

This Corona episode is really a dark chapter for us. Not because of the fatalities though. The way we are acting is really troubling.

[Hapless_Hans]

So Rincon, RG, Nish and Firenze all seems to be fine. Good. Hope Vibe gets well too, soon.

This Corona episode is really a dark chapter for us. Not because of the fatalities though. The way we are acting is really troubling.

Why? Sorry I don't get this. Who are 'we', and what behaviour are you refering to?

[rincon]

The fact that Germany, or the UK, or the Netherlands, still isnt locked down tells you that doctors and scientists are heard as much. It is political. The epidémica hace accelerated to such a point in Italy and Spain and it is debated if there should be isolation.

Liverpool-Atletico was played in a full stadium on March 11th.

Valencia-Atalanta was played with Bergamo in crisis.

The fact that we are talking something like football on the face of an epidemic shows where the response could have been far better.

[Hapless_Hans]

I fear it will be our Vietnam also because of emotive choc in the following period, especially for who'll live it directly.
The difference is that we don't have desired to fight this war.

I'm so sorry this has happened to you guys so badly, and my thoughts and condolences are with Italy these days. We love you and we want you to be back to your old selves as soon as possible. This will pass.

[Hapless_Hans]

The fact that Germany, or the UK, or the Netherlands, still isnt locked down tells you that doctors and scientists are heard as much. It is political. The epidémica hace accelerated to such a point in Italy and Spain and it is debated if there should be isolation.

Liverpool-Atletico was played in a full stadium on March 11th.

Valencia-Atalanta was played with Bergamo in crisis.

The fact that we are talking something like football on the face of an epidemic shows where the response could have been far better.

Guess my point is, we are social beings, and we live in free countries, we can't just be expected to display the perfect behaviour (perfect from an virologists point of view) when warned about a disease.
Especially this disease, the danger isn't as obvious, it's dangerous in degrees.
We aren't bleeding from our eyes from this. We were asked, for the most part, to project a possible bad outcome of our everyday behaviour towards a risk group in the future, and change our every day life because of that, and make quite substantial economical sacrifices, both personally and as a society. That's quite an ask tbh. And people are doing what they're asked.

We should cut us some fucking slack. This is not routine and we shouldn't want it to be.

The Liverpool game, and the Atalanta game, was bad though.

[Babun]

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/478220a4c454480e823b17327b2bf1d4

Detailed dashboard for Germany for whoever might be interested. As you can see most of the patients are young, well bellow 70y.

[Hapless_Hans]

We were asked, for the most part, to project a possible bad outcome of our everyday behaviour towards a risk group in the future, and change our every day life because of that, and make quite substantial economical sacrifices, both personally and as a society. That's quite an ask tbh. And people are doing what they're asked.
.

Compare that to our collective response to the climate crisis (which not really is less severe, relevant, acute, and scientifically predicted and warned about, if you think about it), for example, where nothing of substance whatsoever is done by basically any of us, and politicians don't follow the advise of scientists in the least...

[Nishankly]

France keeping the numbers stable for now. 4 days it's hovered between 1.4 and 1.8k unlike everywhere else when it is a continuous increase. Small positives

[Unique]

Nearly 20,000 fully qualified staff will join the NHS response to coronavirus after a deal with the private sector which will include 8,000 more hospital beds being made available.

The National Health Service will also have access to nearly 1,200 more ventilators and other critical care facilities that have come under intense pressure as the coronavirus crisis intensifies. The deal will give the NHS access to 10,000 nurses, over 700 doctors and more than 8,000 other clinical staff.

In London, which has been hit the worst by the coronavirus outbreak, the NHS will now have access to 2,000 hospital beds, and over 250 operating theatres and critical beds.

NHS chief executive Sir Simon Stevens said they were dealing with an "unprecedented global health threat".

[sportsczy]

https://www.marca.com/futbol/real-madrid/2020/03/21/5e712412ca47418a628b45a0.html

RIP Lorenzo Sanz, former president of Real Madrid. Died of complications from coronavirus.

[Firenze]

I think I had it but I'm feeling fine now, took about 4 days, I NEVER get sick and I had a high fever and a big cough.

What annoys me is that we've known for months now about the impact it was having in China and didn't seem very well prepared once it finally hit EU/UK... crazy.

Italy numbers are insane man

[sportsczy]

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/478220a4c454480e823b17327b2bf1d4

Detailed dashboard for Germany for whoever might be interested. As you can see most of the patients are young, well bellow 70y.

Interestingly... one of the theories I've heard is that places like Italy and Spain, families tend to live together in the same house spanning generations. Grandparents live with their kids and grandkids. So the younger people go out and bring back the illness into the household.

In places like France and Germany, the generations live apart. So the vulnerable older generation is less at risk form getting contaminated by the younger ones.

The US is such a mix of different cultures that it comes down to which one you belong to. Hispanics, Italians, etc tend to live together while anglo-saxons do not.

[Unique]

it does seem like the numbers given for infected and deaths in each country has a lot to do with the age and way of life people live. like more people in china got the virus than in italy but more people in italy have died from it. that tells you that a higher population in china is why more were infected but more old people in italy means more people died from it. the way things are in china means the citys are not full of old people so most of the infected were younger so less deaths. italy has far more old people so more deaths. we can look at these stats and get an idea about how many will get infected but not at the death rate.

[RealGunner]

'Boris Johnson was following medical advice' proved to be a load of bullshit.

This is quite a disturbing read.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach

[Unique]

'Boris Johnson was following medical advice' proved to be a load of bullshit.

This is quite a disturbing read.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/10-days-that-changed-britains-coronavirus-approach

i said this before. the government know nothing about this kind of stuff and can only go on the things doctors and scientists tell them. then asking them to choose what scientists to follow is just crazy

[Unique]

the things the governments are doing now to stop the spread are the same things italy has been doing for months and its not working for them. we will all fight this for months or years but unless they find a vaccine soon the herd immunity will end up being the only thing that stops it imo. i also think the herd immunity is what got china out of trouble.

[Unique]

we have had warnings from the past that could have made the world ready for something like this but as we all know by the way we fight global warming money is more important than life sadly.

[Babun]

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/478220a4c454480e823b17327b2bf1d4

Detailed dashboard for Germany for whoever might be interested. As you can see most of the patients are young, well bellow 70y.

Interestingly... one of the theories I've heard is that places like Italy and Spain, families tend to live together in the same house spanning generations.  Grandparents live with their kids and grandkids.  So the younger people go out and bring back the illness into the household.

In places like France and Germany, the generations live apart.  So the vulnerable older generation is less at risk form getting contaminated by the younger ones.

The US is such a mix of different cultures that it comes down to which one you belong to.  Hispanics, Italians, etc tend to live together while anglo-saxons do not.

Maybe 80y ago, something else is true though: the Italian grandparents meet up with their family often and they are socially active. An elder Italian doesn't sit home or just go to a grocery shop, they meet up with everyone outside, play games, organize events or tours. The children or grandchildren visit them for a cup of coffee or more if they are in the vicinity. In Germany, meeting up 2 times per year (xmas and eastern) is already considered great.
So yeah, the result is pretty much the same but the causes are different.
By the way, there is a positive trend with the new infections in Germany. If the trend continues tomorrow no severe measures will be needed to contain the virus. France keeps the numbers stable too, although I don't know whether the numbers are low due to control or due to testing capacity.

[iftikhar]

So Rincon, RG, Nish and Firenze all seems to be fine. Good. Hope Vibe gets well too, soon.

This Corona episode is really a dark chapter for us. Not because of the fatalities though. The way we are acting is really troubling.

Why? Sorry I don't get this. Who are 'we', and what behaviour are you refering to?

Yes, I guess it requires some explanations.

The we refers to the people in general worldwide and the 'educated', 'conscious', 'responsible' segment in particular.

I have the feeling that the authorities have responded with relative responsibility and deliberation (I say that as a harsh, bitter and unapologetic critic of all those politicians, Spahn, Merkel, Söder, involved), and the people have responded with quite some civility, soidarity and also compliance.

Like you said, these two combined could have and still could limit the infection and the disturbance that come along with it.

I have heard from many people in Canada, US, Europe etc. that owners/management were/are reluctant to allow employees to work from home or take (paid) sick leaves in the early stages of the spread.

People emptying the shelves without any compassion or consideration for others. I wonder how have the more vulnerable segments have fared from this binge.

People sharing all sorts of ridiculous 'prevention' ranging from garlic to sun-bathing. I mean if you are competent enough to use the internet then why not check some authentic/authoritative sites first.

Don't forget these binge-buying, oracle-spreading are perhaps the same who didn't maintain the minimum cautions in the beginning of the infections; crowding the malls, cinemas and whatnot.

[El Gunner]

^^we live in a simulation, and science and institutions dont give the only answers and more people need to wake up (or actually are waking up to it in recent years, and this event will only make it more apparent) -- it's so obvious

[Myesyats]

I'm mostly worried about my savings. I hope this virus doesnt shake up the economy too much, wanted to buy gold coins/bars because they always hold value in times of crisis but missed out.

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