The Coronavirus Thread - Part 3

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Post by El Gunner Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:09 pm

we will gain herd immunity to whatever mutation eventually - evolution 101

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Post by VivaStPauli Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:38 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:So apparently Fauci's emails got leaked from the early days of the pandemic. Looks like Trump supporters will have a field day trying to find potential incriminating messages. Laughing


Surprise surprise, the man is a clear and obvious fraud.


As evidenced by what, exactly?

@El Gunner wrote:we will gain herd immunity to whatever mutation eventually - evolution 101


Errrm, ever heard of measles?
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Post by El Gunner Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:19 pm

and yet most people recover from measles... so what's your point? success of recovery is part of immunity
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Post by CBarca Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:36 pm

@RealGunner wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@CBarca wrote:Also, not taking the vaccine endangers others. But you're welcome not to. It's kinda like getting sick and rubbing your snot on everything or coughing on other people without covering your mouth. You're welcome to do so and live in peace with others, but don't be surprised when people think you're an ass for it.

"Those who die, die" what a terrible statement.

Man, I wish some of those who died of polio or smallpox or the kids today still dying of measles could come back to earth and smack anti-vaxxers upside the head. Those lives will never come back. Tens of millions, if not more.

When will this myth end.

How is me not taking the vaccine impacting those who have already taken it?

If the vaccine works, what are you concerned by?

You cannot have it both ways.

If it works, then me contracting COVID (already happened) will not be a concern of yours because your vaccine protects you from severe symptoms doesnt it?

The small number of people, of which they vaccine isnt effective on, they are at risk regardless of what I do or dont do. There are going to be who are medically unable to take the vaccine (my partner is one of) so this minuscule "risk" will always exist and that is life, its full of risk. COVID is not even particularly high on the level of risk for the vast majority.



No no, that's not the issue here at all. The issue is for Covid-19 to continue existing and spreading because of those who have not been vaccinated (by choice or by other factors) until the point it mutates (as all viruses do) into something which makes any existing vaccine ineffective against it. That is the real concern as if that happens, we are back to 0 and the cycle never ends.


I'll just quote this because this answers the question.

I'll add: All of your questions focus on me, and why it is important to me that someone else gets a vaccine. I am not thinking that way. I would say the majority of people who have got vaccinated are not thinking that way. The majority of people are not particularly high risk.

I care about disrupting disease transmission. The reason why this is important is outlined by RG and by BC earlier. Although I will add that our amazing scientists and science community should be able to come up with new vaccines that can combat troublesome mutations that evade our current vaccine pretty quickly, based off of what we have learned of COVID so far.

The success of vaccines is built upon disrupting disease transmission, and it's vital that people buy into getting a vaccine for the greater good. EG is all about being connected to each other and working for the common good, communism etc. -- there is nothing any one person could do more for their local & global community than to get a COVID vaccine.

Our arguments here have become circular. I'm not sure how many times people who are pro-vaxx here have to continue to make it clear that the primary argument for getting the vaccine is disrupting disease transmission.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:51 pm

lol i love how reverse-psychology "communism" arguments have become a staple argumentative tool against me

i don't know if big pharma and their cronies pocketing big bucks for this trial-run experiment on humans is for the common good, but hey, clearly pro-vax and anti-vax don't see things the same way
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Post by CBarca Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:14 am

Could you please be specific about what you see that makes this a "trial run experiment on humans"?

Or, if you have "said this before" as you like to say, could you point out where that information is held, or quote it? For my part, I'll look through at least the last 10 pages myself, to see if you have said in specific.

It appears to me that people don't know what mRNA is. I think a lot of the misunderstanding from people here is that they don't know.

If people are scared of the astrazeneca vaccine, then I start to be a bit more sympathetic, although newer research has now understood what is going on with the extremely rare blood clot link
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Post by Robespierre Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:18 am

This Delta variant represents bad news really, if there is a thing that never wanted to read it is that there 's a variant that redecuces vaccine effect
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:09 pm

There's been a lot of ink wasted on the subject of variants and so far none of them have been exceedingly different from another in terms of vaccine effectiveness. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it becomes an actual problem.
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Post by Freeza Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:49 pm

Finally got vaccinated. Now the 14 day wait. Can’t wait really.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:18 pm

Got vaccinated on Friday and was ill over the weekend. All good now though but horrible experience. Which did you get freezer?
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:28 pm

@El Gunner wrote:and yet most people recover from measles... so what's your point? success of recovery is part of immunity


Most people also recover from gunshot wounds, in that a majority isn't fatal, that doesn't mean you should want one, and enough people die of measles to make it a problem.

But more to the point: you said we'd develop herd immunity. Measles is the only disease I know of that's even more contagious than Covid - almost everyone had it, or had a vaccine, and a lot of people died from it over the ages - and we're still not immune.

So how do you propose this herd immunity? Just have millions die until only the strong survive? If that's your opinion then you should just state that you're opposed to helping anyone with anything and I'll accept it, but otherwise it's a tad hypocritical of you, isn't it?
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Post by Robespierre Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:48 pm

I will get vaccinated on Sunday
On purpose a question : but does vaccine work even if you don't take selfie ? : (
Looking at people, I'm getting doubts


Last edited by Robespierre on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Make effect = work, forgive my English (:)
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Post by rincon Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:51 pm

It does but then you get side effects. The selfie prevents them.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:54 pm

@Robespierre wrote:I will get vaccinated on Sunday
On purpose a question : but does vaccine make effects even if you don't take selfie ? : (
Looking at people, I'm getting doubts


I nearly got kicked out for just having my phone out in the vaccination centre. No wonder i got ill
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:11 pm

I got my first shot in mid May, didn't take a selfie, had no side effects, so can confirm.
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Post by Myesyats Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:49 pm

5 weeks between 1st and 2nd shot is a lot. I got 2nd jab scheduled for 12th of july

my friend waited 2.5 months for 2nd job of astra zeneca lol , that sucks.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:56 pm

8 weeks min here. my 2nd dose is in august lol
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Post by rincon Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:01 pm

Here its 5 weeks. Got my first 2 weeks ago
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Post by Freeza Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:53 am

@RealGunner wrote:Got vaccinated on Friday and was ill over the weekend. All good now though but horrible experience. Which did you get freezer?


J&J. Needed one for work and to visit my mom and family out of country.
And I think the chance of any serious side effect is just so miniscule.

So my vaccination passport is complete in just more than 13 days now.
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Post by Freeza Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:55 am

@Myesyats wrote:5 weeks between 1st and 2nd shot is a lot. I got 2nd jab scheduled for 12th of july

my friend waited 2.5 months for 2nd job of astra zeneca lol , that sucks.


5-6 weeks for my father too. The waiting time is ridiculous in Denmark after we only accepted Phizer and Moderne in the general program.

Every dude in the 24-34 demographic in Aarhus is getting Johnson & Johnson at private facilities.
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Post by Thimmy Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:32 am

@VivaStPauli wrote:I got my first shot in mid May, didn't take a selfie, had no side effects, so can confirm.


I got my first one in april, second one in may. I've been hearing about side effects of Moderna and Pfizer occurring in individuals around 3 months after the second shot. I haven't noticed anything else than the odd, dizziness and feeling of my vision zooming in and out, just after I got the second vaccine. Then again, that was only a little over a month ago.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:34 pm

@RealGunner wrote:


No no, that's not the issue here at all. The issue is for Covid-19 to continue existing and spreading because of those who have not been vaccinated (by choice or by other factors) until the point it mutates (as all viruses do) into something which makes any existing vaccine ineffective against it. That is the real concern as if that happens, we are back to 0 and the cycle never ends.

Conjecture and no way whatsoever of proving this. This has never happened when anything before and will not with this.

Did this happen with SARS1?

There is no "back to 0". The mutations from the original are very small, your system with recognize and act accordingly. Which is exactly what has happened thus far.

There have already been studies on the antibodies of the survivors of SARS1 and to nobody's surprise they are immune to COVID.

Furthermore, what is your solution? Because it is impossible to vaccinate the entire planet or even country.





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Post by The Franchise Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:35 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:
@The Franchise wrote:
@Casciavit wrote:So apparently Fauci's emails got leaked from the early days of the pandemic. Looks like Trump supporters will have a field day trying to find potential incriminating messages. Laughing


Surprise surprise, the man is a clear and obvious fraud.


As evidenced by what, exactly?


Common sense and rationale thinking.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:38 pm

RG and anyone living in the UK.

Thoughts of Boris delaying "freedom day" another 4 weeks?

Can anyone justify this absolute nonsense? You actually think this has anything to do with saving lives?
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Post by The Franchise Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm

I'll just quote this because this answers the question.

I'll add: All of your questions focus on me, and why it is important to me that someone else gets a vaccine. I am not thinking that way. I would say the majority of people who have got vaccinated are not thinking that way. The majority of people are not particularly high risk.

I care about disrupting disease transmission. The reason why this is important is outlined by RG and by BC earlier. Although I will add that our amazing scientists and science community should be able to come up with new vaccines that can combat troublesome mutations that evade our current vaccine pretty quickly, based off of what we have learned of COVID so far.

The success of vaccines is built upon disrupting disease transmission, and it's vital that people buy into getting a vaccine for the greater good. EG is all about being connected to each other and working for the common good, communism etc. -- there is nothing any one person could do more for their local & global community than to get a COVID vaccine.

Our arguments here have become circular. I'm not sure how many times people who are pro-vaxx here have to continue to make it clear that the primary argument for getting the vaccine is disrupting disease transmission.


All I will say is, I agree, vaccines could be indeed made to combat variants. Just as with the flu.

As for the rest, I am not sure what to make of it. This doesnt explain at all why I should be forced to take part in a medical procedure. The same argument you use, can be used on the flu, which up until now I have not been forced to take and rightly so.

You say pro vaxx (hate this term but will use it as you have) have repeated the same point regarding transmission as the reason behind the stance, but you also make frankly ridiculous comparisons to coughing on people. I mean, seriously?

Me choosing not to take part in what I (and many more knowledgeable people than myself) certainly consider an experimental procedure to supposedly protect me from something I have already had and recovered from when there is clearly some serious adverse reaction risk involved is similar to me intentionally coughing and sneezing on people? Ridiculous claim. Usually intentionally used to create a "good" and a "bad" side to the argument with you placing yourself on the side of good.

I also will say, alot of people are not being genuine at all.

Perhaps not yourself, perhaps not even anyone here for all I know, but all this vaccine uptake isnt because they truly fear COVID and want to protect themselves and others from it.

The reason for alot of it is they have had their freedoms removed for months, often way over a year and fear that they will be removed again unless they do what they are told.

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Post by CBarca Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:48 pm

Nobody forcing you though. The fact it hasn't been forced is ultimately a good thing, if unfortunate. I'm here in the US though. Can other British posters confirm that you're being forced to take the vaccine?

My comparison stands, even if it's exaggerated. But we have to be careful about our discussion here. The comparison was never about anyone being forced to do anything. It was in response to why people would be annoyed with anti-vaxxers By not taking the vaccine you put others who *can't* or who *won't* take the vaccine in potential danger by acting as a vector. Maybe a better comparison is someone who is sick with the flu refusing to wash their hands or stay away from other people.

I would never say someone should be forced to take the flu vaccine. I would never say someone should be forced to wash their hands. I would never say someone should be forced to social distance from others because of the flu (although it should be noted that as per public health/public safety laws we do require people to do certain things, like employees to wash their hands, and no one bats an eye). But for the common good of the community, boy, if you have the flu you ought to stay home, cover your mouth, wash your hands etc. because you don't want to give other people the flu. The flu is an awful time. Same thing for COVID.

But it's your choice. Have said that from the beginning.

The other thing is that we're talking at different levels here. On an individual level, sure -- you as an individual won't make a difference in terms of endangering others or acting as a vector for mutant variants to spread. But at a community level, enough actors that think that way is a danger to public health. Me? I prefer to not be a danger to public health than to be a danger to public health. But that's an individual choice, just like washing your hands.
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