Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified?

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Post by jibers Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:59 pm

billionmillion wrote:Again this 17 years old CR fanboy makes a thread about Messi. You want to make cr to look good making these threads but you are not so professional at this. Huntsman or Floren would do it better. Your arguments here are ridiculous even for some true Madrid fans

As i posted in another thread

"Which great didnt have great team-mates? R9, Pele, Zidane, Cryuff which one was alone? problem is that messi has these names only in club team, but other greats had great names in national team too. well you are going to say messi also has great names in national team, but which one of them is in garrincha, rivaldo, ronaldinho, henry, viera, r.carlos, l.enriques, figo etc. level? these are team-mates that won or could win ballon dors, but in argentina squad theres only 1 man who can win ballon dor. And its Messi (pretty alone)"

exactly. Tbh Madrid fans are just bitter that Messi has ripped them apart consistently. They are being humiliated on and off the pitch.

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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:59 pm

MARADONA>messi wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:Seems like you're just hating and trying to put make it seem like Barcelona carried Messi to his success and he's just riding off of it, Messi is one of the main reasons that Barcelona are so good and one of the best teams of all time. You even went to say that C.Ronaldo would do just as well as Messi if he had success like Messi, which is pretty outlandish. Anyway, how is Messi not a complete player? He is a world class passer, one of the best dribblers of all time and his goalscoring record speaks for itself, just because he doesn't score headers all the time or score a 35 yard goal every other season doesn't make him less complete.

You're pretty much in the OP trying to discredit Messi as much as possible and trying to steer the praise he recieves and make it seem like it's down to "Barcelona's Success", well man, he IS Barcelona, he is MotM nearly every game and scored more goals than the other two starting forwards combined last season as well as grabbing 25+ assists. Messi is praised because of his goalscoring record, assistance record, and all the things on the pitch he does that you can't see in statistics. People will remember this Barcelona for their style of play and for having one of the best club players of all time, they will remember Barcelona's dominance over 3+ seasons and will remember how Messi scored 4 goals against Arsenal or how he dribbled RMs entire defense to give Barcelona a 2 goal lead going to the camp nou in the UCL semi final/

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Post by Ganso Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:00 pm

jibers wrote:
MARADONA>messi wrote:
Ganso wrote:history wise,yes.atm no.

I know most people dont think this way,but imo a WC is needed to be a all time great in the ranks of pele,maradona,R9 etc

Cruyff

Let Messi finish his career and then will see where he is in history... I consider him an all time great but not THE all time great atm

Cruyff, Di Stefano, Baggio. people just talk crap. Winning a WC is a good way to validate greatness, not having one doesn't discredit you. Messi this season has wounded Madrid, Porto, came on for 30 minutes and slaughtered Napoli. You can't make these things up. He dominates big teams. United, Real Madrid, Arsenal, all torn to shreds. Most consistent cub player I have ever seen bar none.

Pele,Maradona,R9,Zidane>Cruyff,Di Stefano,Baggio
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Post by Babun Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:00 pm

Why talk about Messi in an endles thread? Dude is the best player in the world, right now Very Happy

Dzeko is the god of today, let the Messi vs. CR7 crap be... :lol!:


Last edited by babun1024 on Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by billionmillion Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:01 pm

The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
You little hater, to win CL CR needed to dribble 4 players and score a winner goal against Barcelona in semi-final. If he can not do that, if he is flop in big games, then he doesnt deserve those awards. Now you get it?
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:02 pm

The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:03 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:A) Now your whole argument is based on the fact Messi is not as "complete" as others. You argue that since he's not as good at heading as other forwards* then that must mean that he's overrated. The argument is ludicrous in many ways, but mainly in the way that you are judging the best player. The best players are not judged for their individual skills, but about how a player uses his skills to become decisive - and there is little doubt that Messi is one of the most decisive players of all time. He's what you call a "different" player - the kind that seals a match in the blink of an eye. That's the quality of the "best player".

Consider the following statement Kaka made: "I'm not the great artist Maradona was, I'm more complete". If we were to follow your logic then that must mean Kaka is a better player.

B) Another point in which I disagree with your analysis is that you're judging Messi and comparing him to other CFs, when Messi has evolved to be so much more than that. He blurs the line between a CF and an AM, leaving only very few players that could be compared with him in that position (Cruyff, Totti). You also ignored all the traits that a player of this position needs, such as an exceptional final pass which very few of the people you have compared him have.

C) Now your second point is that Messi is in a team that is tailor made for him which means that somehow this makes Messi look better than he is. I'm sorry, what? Granted, not everyone is as lucky to be in a team in which the tactical genius of Pep Guardiola brings out the best of nearly every player, but it's still Messi playing in the pitch. He's not made to look better than he is, he is playing at his potential.



*Which is a false statement, Messi is pretty good at heading, but rarely gets into a position to do it because of his height, there is a key difference between the two - he usually makes up for his lack of height with speed and technique, see the CL goal against United for further proof.

Messi is a great header did you see that goal against Mallorca for some reason it's one of my favs from him
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Post by jibers Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:03 pm

Ganso wrote:
jibers wrote:
MARADONA>messi wrote:
Ganso wrote:history wise,yes.atm no.

I know most people dont think this way,but imo a WC is needed to be a all time great in the ranks of pele,maradona,R9 etc

Cruyff

Let Messi finish his career and then will see where he is in history... I consider him an all time great but not THE all time great atm

Cruyff, Di Stefano, Baggio. people just talk crap. Winning a WC is a good way to validate greatness, not having one doesn't discredit you. Messi this season has wounded Madrid, Porto, came on for 30 minutes and slaughtered Napoli. You can't make these things up. He dominates big teams. United, Real Madrid, Arsenal, all torn to shreds. Most consistent cub player I have ever seen bar none.

Pele,Maradona,R9,Zidane>Cruyff,Di Stefano,Baggio

That;s your opinion. In brazil, Pele isn't even considered the best ffs. My mate that lived in Brazil for 16 years said that Garrincha is the best.
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:04 pm

AHAHAHAH look at all you all so angry and defensive ya thats right.. i knew this would happen, you cant take someone looking at your little god and dissecting why he is seen as godly as he is seen.

if he won jacksht he would win no ballon d or. lets say X players wins it all messi has same stats but doesnt win anything, you still expect messi to win because he can dribble?

the success magnifies the player , it magnifies messi.

you immediatley call bs on anything and keep it going. all of you prove my point. look at how you defend him..
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Post by jibers Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:04 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


And at club level he never one the ClL even though he was at WC clubs.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:04 pm

Can't take you seriously if anyone that speaks against what you're saying according to you is brainless and delusional

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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:06 pm

jibers wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


And at club level he never one the ClL even though he was at WC clubs.
Good point, yes, Ronaldo couldn't hold a candle to Messi in club football success, but not many can to be fair

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Post by Ganso Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:06 pm

jibers wrote:
Ganso wrote:
jibers wrote:
MARADONA>messi wrote:
Ganso wrote:history wise,yes.atm no.

I know most people dont think this way,but imo a WC is needed to be a all time great in the ranks of pele,maradona,R9 etc

Cruyff

Let Messi finish his career and then will see where he is in history... I consider him an all time great but not THE all time great atm

Cruyff, Di Stefano, Baggio. people just talk crap. Winning a WC is a good way to validate greatness, not having one doesn't discredit you. Messi this season has wounded Madrid, Porto, came on for 30 minutes and slaughtered Napoli. You can't make these things up. He dominates big teams. United, Real Madrid, Arsenal, all torn to shreds. Most consistent cub player I have ever seen bar none.

Pele,Maradona,R9,Zidane>Cruyff,Di Stefano,Baggio

That;s your opinion. In brazil, Pele isn't even considered the best ffs. My mate that lived in Brazil for 16 years said that Garrincha is the best.
Everyone considers him the best of all time.Garrincha is second....

Pele is unbelievably underrated on these forums.
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:07 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?

look at his individual performance, he scored 2 wc final goals. you think im discretiding what messi does.. no i am giving an explanation as to why he is as effective as he is and why all the success that comes with that gloats him a bit.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:07 pm

Ganso are you getting excited for Kaka's possible return to Milan? Very Happy

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Post by jibers Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:07 pm

The Madrid One wrote:AHAHAHAH look at all you all so angry and defensive ya thats right.. i knew this would happen, you cant take someone looking at your little god and dissecting why he is seen as godly as he is seen.

if he won jacksht he would win no ballon d or. lets say X players wins it all messi has same stats but doesnt win anything, you still expect messi to win because he can dribble?

the success magnifies the player , it magnifies messi.

you immediatley call bs on anything and keep it going. all of you prove my point. look at how you defend him..

lol. Defensive? I dislike Barcelona but I am not biased. I have been watching football since 1987, I ave no bias in me. Seen many great teams. Messi is one of the best players I have ssen in my lifetime and the most consistent I have seen at club level. R9 never won a champions league but won 1 WC, with a WC team, as you would put it. So one WC win is greater than 3 champions leagues and consistency?
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:08 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
jibers wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


And at club level he never one the ClL even though he was at WC clubs.
Good point, yes, Ronaldo couldn't hold a candle to Messi in club football success, but not many can to be fair
youre rating by success, you really think messi is a better and more complete footballer than ronaldo at prime was. answer the question.
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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:08 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
MARADONA>messi wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:Seems like you're just hating and trying to put make it seem like Barcelona carried Messi to his success and he's just riding off of it, Messi is one of the main reasons that Barcelona are so good and one of the best teams of all time. You even went to say that C.Ronaldo would do just as well as Messi if he had success like Messi, which is pretty outlandish. Anyway, how is Messi not a complete player? He is a world class passer, one of the best dribblers of all time and his goalscoring record speaks for itself, just because he doesn't score headers all the time or score a 35 yard goal every other season doesn't make him less complete.

You're pretty much in the OP trying to discredit Messi as much as possible and trying to steer the praise he recieves and make it seem like it's down to "Barcelona's Success", well man, he IS Barcelona, he is MotM nearly every game and scored more goals than the other two starting forwards combined last season as well as grabbing 25+ assists. Messi is praised because of his goalscoring record, assistance record, and all the things on the pitch he does that you can't see in statistics. People will remember this Barcelona for their style of play and for having one of the best club players of all time, they will remember Barcelona's dominance over 3+ seasons and will remember how Messi scored 4 goals against Arsenal or how he dribbled RMs entire defense to give Barcelona a 2 goal lead going to the camp nou in the UCL semi final/

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Pepe was not present at the time messi scored Barca's second goal since he had gone fishing
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:10 pm

The Madrid One wrote:look at his individual performance, he scored 2 wc final goals. you think im discretiding what messi does.. no i am giving an explanation as to why he is as effective as he is and why all the success that comes with that gloats him a bit.
It's not like there is a man with a remote controlling Messi from the stands, Messi is effective as he is because of himself and nobody else, he brought this success upon himself, it wasn't handed to him for free.

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Post by Lord Awesome Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:11 pm

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Messi needs Xavi and Iniesta to be the best.

Xavi & Iniesta don't need Messi to be sucsessfull.

Especially Xavi.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:11 pm

The Madrid One wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
jibers wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


And at club level he never one the ClL even though he was at WC clubs.
Good point, yes, Ronaldo couldn't hold a candle to Messi in club football success, but not many can to be fair
youre rating by success, you really think messi is a better and more complete footballer than ronaldo at prime was. answer the question.
I do, but that's not what I was saying in the post that you quoted, I was simply stating that Messi was better in club football, which is undeniably true.

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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:13 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:look at his individual performance, he scored 2 wc final goals. you think im discretiding what messi does.. no i am giving an explanation as to why he is as effective as he is and why all the success that comes with that gloats him a bit.
It's not like there is a man with a remote controlling Messi from the stands, Messi is effective as he is because of himself and nobody else, he brought this success upon himself, it wasn't handed to him for free.
hes effective because of his team, why doesnt he do the same for argentina?


we all know messi is technically brilliant but when youre at a team that magnifies what you can do youre are zoomed in into looking even better than you are.. it applies to any player.. why are people being so defensive and going to attack me personnally when what im saying makes perfect sense..

you are kind of saying that messi is better than ronaldo because he has 3 cls, what if ronaldo had 3 cls you wouldnt jump that soon to conclusions, youre judging based on success and that elevates the way you look at him thus making him a bit gloated.

understand?
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Post by Ganso Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:14 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:Ganso are you getting excited for Kaka's possible return to Milan? Very Happy
who isnt bounce
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Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified? - Page 4 Empty Re: Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified?

Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:14 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
jibers wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:jibers you said that people already rate him the best ever and you see through that and declare other things to be outlandish..

is lionel messi really the most technically gifted footballer ever.. individually is he really the best?

@messi i already told you and gave you the clear facts compare both his performances in argentina and barca he does more in barca because of his team mates.

all this success has elevated him to other grounds.. can you really tell me messi could do what he does in any league to its fullest potential..

cant believe it. messi is such a god for so many.. hes the greatest player in the world because of his team.. if cr7 won cl and everything then hed be the best player.


propaganda and misunderstanding makes messi look better than he is.

yes call me crazy if it makes you happier.
So does R9s World Cup mean nothing because he had Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo and Kaka alongside him?


And at club level he never one the ClL even though he was at WC clubs.
Good point, yes, Ronaldo couldn't hold a candle to Messi in club football success, but not many can to be fair
youre rating by success, you really think messi is a better and more complete footballer than ronaldo at prime was. answer the question.
I do, but that's not what I was saying in the post that you quoted, I was simply stating that Messi was better in club football, which is undeniably true.
i cant care less, see you proved my point, your judging him by his team success.

ahaha gloating my friends if he won 5 world cups hed be the best.. not his team right.. any big guy could do that and get the same praise. over gloating.
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Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified? - Page 4 Empty Re: Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified?

Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:16 pm

Lord Hispano wrote:Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified? - Page 4 The-time-has-come-time-day-demotivational-poster-1256262877

Messi needs Xavi and Iniesta to be the best.

Xavi & Iniesta don't need Messi to be sucsessfull.

Especially Xavi.
Thumbs up

people have built a complex over messi, the trophies serve as an altar to push the little guy a bit taller in the pecking order because his team won 3 cls.
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:17 pm

The Madrid One wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:look at his individual performance, he scored 2 wc final goals. you think im discretiding what messi does.. no i am giving an explanation as to why he is as effective as he is and why all the success that comes with that gloats him a bit.
It's not like there is a man with a remote controlling Messi from the stands, Messi is effective as he is because of himself and nobody else, he brought this success upon himself, it wasn't handed to him for free.
hes effective because of his team, why doesnt he do the same for argentina?


we all know messi is technically brilliant but when youre at a team that magnifies what you can do youre are zoomed in into looking even better than you are.. it applies to any player.. why are people being so defensive and going to attack me personnally when what im saying makes perfect sense..

you are kind of saying that messi is better than ronaldo because he has 3 cls, what if ronaldo had 3 cls you wouldnt jump that soon to conclusions, youre judging based on success and that elevates the way you look at him thus making him a bit gloated.

understand?
Uh, so is Di Stefano not an all time great because he won 5 European Championships but nothing with the NT?

If R9 never won a WC he wouldn't be an all time great, isn't that judging someone by their success according to you? So anyone that has been successful at all is "gloated" using your logic

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