Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified?

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Is Messi Overated?

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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:01 am

Please Read Article Before Voting, wont take more than 5 mins.

Warning: If You Can Not Sustain a civilized conversation discussing the way Lionel Messi is thought of and looked at without going crazy then look away.


Simple Question Do you think the majority of people look at messi in a too much of a gloated way. read the article to understand what i mean.

Now Success is the principle tool i see people use, and people have always used to determine how good a player is. Effectiveness on the pitch is key to how you will go down in history, effectiveness and what you do on the pitch, what you win on the pitch and how you do it is what you get judged by. That is success, that is the benchmark, but can that way of looking at things inflate the level of greatness a player is looked by as having by others?

I think yes.

Now Lionel messi has won 3 champions league titles with Barcelona, hes won so many titles that he can probably go down among the ten most successful club players of all time, that success that he has earned and participated in has earned him the privilege to be looked at as not only the best football player on the planet, but by many as a sort of *god*, his effectiveness on the pitch aided by the fact that he works in the most "USER FRIENDLY" surrounding a player of his caliber has ever been in, augments how greatly people look at him.

He has earned his placement among the all time greats, his effectiveness and his abilities as a player have taken him there, but has that overrated him in a way? He is the best player in the world BECAUSE he is part of the best team in the world.. whats to say he would be able to do this in any other team??

Now you might ask yourself, what's the point in all of this.. hes seen as a great.. because hes done great things.. but How do you people rank a player? by what he has achieved, his skills, or a combination of both?

What is to say that other "complete" players, complete forwards such as maradona,pele,di stefano, Ronaldo el fenomeno, thierry henry, etc, wouldn't be as successful as him?

THE POINT OF THIS THREAD is to highlight the fact that Barcelona, and the success that Barcelona have brought to messi, makes messi look better than he is. Messi is young and he deserves MUCH of the praise that he gets, because he has had part in Barcelona's success because the team is basically made around him, this is why he gets all the praise, but does this really make him THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER? just because of the success he has had mainly due to his team? hes lucky hes been part of a project that he is the main star of, he is basically the utter PERFECT example of everything coming together, but that does overate him because many already consider him the best ever.. we have all heard it before but is he really?

Heading
Striking
Speed
Consistency
Mentality
Strength
Skills

All things to judge a player by, but if you look at him and compare him to other players.. well lets look at it..

Messi would lose out in places like heading,striking,speed, strength to countless of all time great forwards..

consistency? skills?

In what way is messi better than a guy like henry? or ronaldo el fenomeno? other than he can go past players and dribble possibly better than any of them? is he as complete as a player as other greats have been?

NO

he isnt in my opinion even close to being the most complete player there has ever been, i can look at thierry henry and ronaldo and ask my self.. why are these people already being overlooked at because of the SUCCESS that messi has endured? what is to say that a guy like ronaldo, or henry would not score as many goals or have the same success that messi has had in EQUALLY AS USER FRIENDLY teams...

Messi has absolutely nothing in argentina.. of course he hasnt had the privilege of being in as SUCCESSFUL national teams as henry or ronaldo were, so people ignore that, no matter how much he wins in a club some people wont even consider him top 10 if he doesnt win anything with argentina because he didnt "prove"him self there..

SUCCESS is not the only indicator of how good a player is.

Ask your self is lionel messi really the greatest, most complete player ever?

he simply isnt.

Put Thierry Henry, Diego Maradona, Ronaldo, even CR7 in as equal as successful teams as messi and they will get the same praise.. because they would score just as much.. and do just as much...

Messi is in no way the best player ever, he is a great player but BARCELONA makes him look better than he is as bold as it may sound, because of the success hes had, there have been more complete players that have had a broader range of success and are thus considered greats.. what makes messi as good as everyone thinks he is..( best player of all time Rolling Eyes )

If success is the factor that makes one brilliant only then in my eyes PELE,MARADONA,RONALDO, EVEN HENRY would all be over messi.

if it comes to being a complete player.. All of them would be over messi as well.. sure messi can dribble but all those players have more pros than cons on their side than messi...

VERDICT: Messi is overrated in his own little way. He is not the best player ever. and nor will he end up as the most successful. IF you are gonna judge him by titles to see how good he is, HE NEEDS THAT WORLD CUP.

It is impossible to name the all time great.. you can judge the player by the huge success one has and the time he has it but it all depends WHAT you rate a player by. Thats a key theme. you may have your own judgement of a player and his effects on the game, but all this would make messi a small fish in a GIANT pond.. the effect PELE had on football PERIOD.. the effect that CRYUFF had as a philosopher..on the field and off it... The Brutal Freak of nature henry and ronaldo were.. messi is just a lucky child to be part of the most successful MODERN PROJECT in history.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by zizzle Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:14 am

shit storm coming this way
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Post by Nishankly Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:15 am

He aint overrated, If he is overrated than im sorry i don't know what Ronaldo would be..
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:20 am

Nishank wrote:He aint overrated, If he is overrated than im sorry i don't know what Ronaldo would be..
hes overated yes or no depending on how you see him, and how others see him.

if people regard him as the best player in the world at the moment then hes not overrated because hes proved that he is the most complete player in the world at the moment.

but if people think hes the greatest of all time i think it would only be because of what he has won and his part in it, the ENORMOUS success, he hasnt done anything for argentina, but everyone overlooks it because of what hes done for barca. If its just because of his success then he is overated, if youre rating him by skills i cant find a way that hes better than ALL or even a majority of all time greats like Thierry Henry, Diego Maradona, Ronaldo, Pele, Di Stefano.


messi will retire as an all time great but just because he wins 10 cls or something that doesnt mean hes the best. it means he was in the right time and in the right place. what says anyone else wouldnt be able to do the same in the same circumstances, some might take this as something irrelevant but i cant find a way that it is like that...

all the all time greats have been so because of a combination of trophies, influence, and skills, and just by looking at that.. messi will never be rated as the best.

Success: no world cup wins, minimal impact in nt, dont know what would happen in a team that wasnt made for him. hes effect on the game other than scoring goals and winning WITH HIS team is minimal.

Skill: Laughing Laughing hes not more skilled than all of the hundreds of football players theres ever been.
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Post by Ali Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:27 am

I agree to be honest but you will have so many people here ranting in a bit
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Post by zizzle Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:29 am

well i somehow agree with parts of the article but i cant agree on its conclusion. Messi without a doubt is the best footballer on the planet, but the fact that he's no where as good in his national team makes me wonder.

yes Messi is lucky to be in the current Barca team, and we wont know how good he really is unless he steps up his act for Argentina or moves to a different team, but that doesnt mean he's over rated because if you look at his NT performance, its not exactly flopping, but its more kind of being lost, its like he's so used to the Barca tactics that he cant easily adapt to his new, and temporary, environment.

Skill wise Messi is one of the greatest no doubt, but his lack of leadership might be the only thing that separates him from the likes of Maradona, pele and co. But then again, how do we know that Argentina and Brazil were not built around Maradona and Pele and played the football that complements their skill the same way Barca is built around Messi? and again, 20-30 years ago International football was the pinacle of this sport, while in our days its a mere tradition that isnt as important as it once was

so i think its kinda cruel to say Messi is over rated just because he doesnt do as good for his NT, but then again he still has alot to prove if he's to retire as the greatest footballer of all time
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:39 am

zizzle im not saying that hes overrated because of the fact that he has done nothing for argentina, im saying that people look at a guy by the success hes had and thats why messi is already an all time great, because hes had enormous success and because hes had a big part in it.

but the reason i wrote the article as well is to show you why i think some people might overate him because of the way they look at him.

The question is do you think messi is overated, dont overthink it by asking your self what that means, just answer do you think people perceive him in too much of a gloated way?

i personally do and i already explained why. some people think hes better than he is. Teams always have a big part in how a player performs and how hes looked at and vice versa, but i cant call him the greatest at this stage because he ISNT THE MOST COMPLETE FOOTBALLER EVER.. and he isnt the most successful and wont be either i think, not in terms of impact or trophies either.. but people ignore things and view him in ways that might be considered by some as gloated.. thus the explanations.

hes is lucky to be in the most USER FRIENDLY SURROUNDING EVER everyone can agree to this, it magnifies his ability times a thousand. when hes not in such a good place he still shows a little bit of his worth but not as much.. and thats a personal feat he has to fix..

maradona never won much in a club, but he won a lot in the nt even though he didnt have THE BEST squad ever.. HE TOOK THEM THERE.. to the world cup.. messi hasnt done that.. his team has taken him more than the other way around, but its also unfair to judge him only on that.

its simple.. people overate him sometimes, and there are many reasons why i dont think he will ever go down as the greatest. people have done better things in not as comfortable situations. it of course depends what you define a player by but considering the factors he wont even come close to my list ever. regarding the poll if you look at the majority of opinions of him on an all time scale its a resounding YES.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Magricos Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:51 am

Sleep

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Post by zizzle Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:52 am

well, at this point anyone who calls messi the greatest of all time is simply a Barca/Messi fanboy, sure he has been phenominal for 3-4 for seasons, but so was Ronaldinho. The guys isnt 25 yet and he still has so much to prove, but yea he's on the right track and if he manages to win a WC in the 8-10 years he's got left in his career then this arguement might become valid.

the question is, would Barca be doing that good if Messi and C Ronaldo were swaped ? i guess they would be, and in that case we would be discussing wether Ronaldo was over rated or not


Last edited by zizzle on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Magricos Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:53 am

Not surprised that Ronaldo is mentioned by someone in a thread about Messi.

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Post by zizzle Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:55 am

u cant mention Pele without mentioning Maradona, you cant mention Brad without mentioning Angelina, and you cant mention penutt butter without mentioning Jelly. Some things just go together
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:58 am

zizzle wrote:u cant mention Pele without mentioning Maradona, you cant mention Brad without mentioning Angelina, and you cant mention penutt butter without mentioning Jelly. Some things just go together
great great way to put it.

see it all sums up people define players more by success i feel when it should be an accumulation of both success,impact and talent, if he wins the world cup in a convincing manner and has a lot more effect on the game, then id say hes one of the most complete packages in the history of the game, but based on sole talent i wouldn't rate him at top no matter what he wins.

you could put any all time great and they would do the same, so putting legacies aside, impact aside, is he even the best skill wise?

no. or at least IMO, nor is he the complete package.

I marvel much more at guys like henry, maradona, and ronaldo as players than messi.

Please dont take heavy insult to that fanboys...

messi will only be accepted to be even in the same sentence depending on what he wins and his effect, and even when if he ever is in the same breath based on talent, hes not the best of them all. My Opinion

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Post by Ali Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:09 am

The Madrid One wrote:
zizzle wrote:u cant mention Pele without mentioning Maradona, you cant mention Brad without mentioning Angelina, and you cant mention penutt butter without mentioning Jelly. Some things just go together
My Opinion


didn't you get the memo? you can't have an opinion on this forum :coffee:
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:10 am

ali8775 wrote:
The Madrid One wrote:
zizzle wrote:u cant mention Pele without mentioning Maradona, you cant mention Brad without mentioning Angelina, and you cant mention penutt butter without mentioning Jelly. Some things just go together
My Opinion


didn't you get the memo? you can't have an opinion on this forum :coffee:
you cant have a brain either, run away before the zombies get you son!! :study:
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Post by S Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:22 am

You are indeed relating his success at Barca to his somewhat unfortunate National Team career by saying Argentina dont possess the kind of players Barca do which according to you "Has made Messi great" since he plays alongside the best players in the world..

So are you indirectly assuming that Barca without Messi would still deliver the goods and be hailed as the best team in the world ?
I kinda agree with you that team does play a big part in how the player performs..

But just date back to 2008(Rijkaard's last season) ,Messi suffers a hamstring injury in the second half of the season,and the entire team sort of collapsed
i mean Barca really looked impotent in attack in Messi's absence..But that was three years ago..And mind you that there were a lot of past it players in the squad..Messi hasnt really suffered a serious injury since then..

Now that Pep is under the helm since the last three seasons,grooming La Masia talents into top players,and he has a laid a foundation for all but a perfect eleven ,Messi is termed overrated because ,Barca has world class players just about in every position and he cant produce the goods without certain players..

And we cant say that Messi may or may not deliver in another team because this is purely hypothetical..

And the positive to consider in terms of his national team career that he has time on his side..At the moment he is heavily scrutinized for failing to replicate the Barca form at Argentina but who is to say that he cannot..At the moment he is not the best and cannot be mentioned in the same breath as a Pele or a Maradona..Everyone agree with this..


In conclusion:You term Messi overrated because he has a team with wonderful players around which makes his job sort of easy..
And according to you he's all but a big flop and overrated at NT level
since Argentina dont really possess a great balanced team and hence failing to live up to his reputation..

Well thats your opinion and i certainly dont agree with it..




Last edited by Surag.Blueguy on Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LeSwagg James Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:24 am

Messi is over rated only if an individual thinks he is the greatest player of all time.. He is the best player in the world right now, and a hell of a player that's how I rate him.. Nothing more.. So it depends on the person really

He has the potential to be in the "GOAT" conversation but only time can tell
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Post by H.A. Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:30 am

What bothers me is how the media inflate how good he is. Does he deserve the praise? Yes but the way its done is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. Its the reason why other good players get overlooked and overshadowed. I mean every move he makes is described as magical right? When other players do the same moves it might get noticed briefly but it mostly gets overlooked.

I think that's is why Messi won last year's ballon d'or rather than xavi or sneijder.

You see even his own team mates get overlooked because of how the media love to center the attention on messi. The media will always overlook the flaws to make this perfect image. In the world we live in they just love this perfect character, the one the creates the difference, the hero of the team.

Finally I will end it with what Platini said, players like messi are protected more these days. Messi isn't just protected by the referees but by the media and UEFA too. If they make him perfect it helps there image to put it simply, they also will also always count on him to create news even if their is no news to report.

This is no way of bashing messi but the exact opposite. You know why they won't use Ronaldo as the image of the perfect player [regardless of how good he is]? Its because Ronaldo gives this arrogant image which isn't perfect for the media.

I hope I got my point across Very Happy
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:35 am

Surag.Blueguy wrote:You are indeed relating his success at Barca to his somewhat unfortunate National Team career by saying Argentina dont possess the kind of players Barca do which according to you "Has made Messi great" since he plays alongside the best players in the world..Messi hasnt really suffered a really serious injury since then..

So are you indirectly assuming that Barca without Messi would still deliver the goods and be hailed as the best team in the world ?
I kinda agree with you that team does play a big part in how the player performs..

But just date back to 2008(Rijkaard's last season) ,Messi suffers a hamstring injury in the second half of the season,and the entire team sort of collapsed
i mean Barca really looked impotent in attack in Messi's absence..But that was three years ago..And mind you that there were a lot of past it players in the squad..

Now that Pep is under the helm since the last three seasons,grooming La Masia talents into top players,and he has a laid a foundation for all but a perfect eleven ,Messi is termed overrated because ,Barca has world class players just about in every position and he cant produce the goods without certain players..

And we cant say that Messi may or may not deliver in another team because this is purely hypothetical..

And the positive to consider in terms of his national team career that he has time on his side..At the moment he is heavily scrutinized for failing to replicate the Barca form at Argentina but who is to say that he cannot..At the moment he is not the best and cannot be mentioned in the same breath as a Pele or a Maradona..Everyone agree with this..


In conclusion:You term Messi overrated because he has a team with wonderful players around which makes his job sort of easy..
And according to you he's all but a big flop and overrated at NT level
since Argentina dont really possess a great balanced team and hence failing to live up to his reputation..

Well thats your opinion and i certainly dont agree with it..


you are putting words in my mouth or are mis interpreting what i am saying.

the thread asks if you think messi is overrated by the general public for the most part? is he gloated too far?

i wasn't saying that he is crap for not being as good in Argentina as he is in barcelona, and thats not a jab either, its pure fact that barcelona only magnify how well messi players because it is the perfect situation for him and thus he returns the favor.

under rijkard they played differently but you could still see the talent that messi had, the whole team was a failure more or less towards the end of his reign compared to pep's reign where all of the team magnifies it self because of each other, this logic doesnt only apply to messi it applies to any player, if his team is good enough the player will return the favor, as barcelona go stronger so did messi's effectiveness and thus status and condition improve, but with that comes overating..

he is the best player in the world because hes in the best team in the world that magnifies him, his team gives more to him than him to it, thats why you see the sudden difference in performance in argentina and barcelona.

why wouldnt anyone with good knowledge agree?

you dont agree because youre thinking im calling him crap or youre just not getting it. im saying that barca makes him better than he is,it makes him look better but also he performs better and that i think is clear and fair enough to say, but based on that some people gloat him.. whats to say any other great wouldnt do the same in a comfortable sitatuion.


usually when a player wins through adversary is recognized as a golden moment, maradona proved himself by taking argentina to the world cup, messi hasnt proved he can do that. hes important to barcelona but they would still win without him.

would argentina win 1986 without maradona? NO

would barcelona win cl without messi YES.

believe me majority would agree.

i am contrasting different aspects of rating someone but not saying we should base him solely and attack him on his performance on argentina. im just saying TAKE IT INTO ACCOUNT SON!
theres nothing wrong with what im saying.


Last edited by The Madrid One on Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by LeSwagg James Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:37 am

Surag.Blueguy wrote: In conclusion:You term Messi overrated because he has a team with wonderful players around which makes his job sort of easy..
And according to you he's all but a big flop and overrated at NT level
since Argentina dont really possess a great balanced team and hence failing to live up to his reputation..

Well thats your opinion and i certainly dont agree with it..

Yeah that's a reason why people might think he is over rated because he has an "easy job".. But the fact of the matter is, he plays in La Liga and Europe like hundreds of other players, yet there isn't anybody else that dribbles past defenders like he can and score a goal on a regular basis while making it look easily, and there isn't anybody else that can can play pin point passes as frequently as him to set up a goal.. Other player can do those things but not as much as him.. Those are INDIVIDUAL traits, what does his team have to do with it?

He is not as good for Argentina but his club form is so ridiculously great that on that alone he is the best player in the world.. But that alone might not get him to "GOAT" status

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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:41 am

H.A. wrote:What bothers me is how the media inflate how good he is. Does he deserve the praise? Yes but the way its done is ridiculous no matter how you look at it. Its the reason why other good players get overlooked and overshadowed. I mean every move he makes is described as magical right? When other players do the same moves it might get noticed briefly but it mostly gets overlooked.

I think that's is why Messi won last year's ballon d'or rather than xavi or sneijder.

You see even his own team mates get overlooked because of how the media love to center the attention on messi. The media will always overlook the flaws to make this perfect image. In the world we live in they just love this perfect character, the one the creates the difference, the hero of the team.

Finally I will end it with what Platini said, players like messi are protected more these days. Messi isn't just protected by the referees but by the media and UEFA too. If they make him perfect it helps there image to put it simply, they also will also always count on him to create news even if their is no news to report.

This is no way of bashing messi but the exact opposite. You know why they won't use Ronaldo as the image of the perfect player [regardless of how good he is]? Its because Ronaldo gives this arrogant image which isn't perfect for the media.

I hope I got my point across Very Happy
perfect points. i agree, he is gloated to far.

hes the best player in the world, but some people take it farther than that in many different ways.

believe me some people in this forum who feel angry for reading the truth will attack ME for thinking that i am attacking and putting down messi.

im trying to make things more realistic...

ronaldo is just as effective with real madrid but didnt win much.. it goes far beyond skill and success at points it goes into other areas like moral and bla bla bla which blind some people.
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:43 am

Swagg_Johnson wrote:
Surag.Blueguy wrote: In conclusion:You term Messi overrated because he has a team with wonderful players around which makes his job sort of easy..
And according to you he's all but a big flop and overrated at NT level
since Argentina dont really possess a great balanced team and hence failing to live up to his reputation..

Well thats your opinion and i certainly dont agree with it..

Yeah that's a reason why people might think he is over rated because he has an "easy job".. But the fact of the matter is, he plays in La Liga and Europe like hundreds of other players, yet there isn't anybody else that dribbles past defenders like he can and score a goal on a regular basis while making it look easily, and there isn't anybody else that can can play pin point passes as frequently as him to set up a goal.. Other player can do those things but not as much as him.. Those are INDIVIDUAL traits, what does his team have to do with it?

He is not as good for Argentina but his club form is so ridiculously great that on that alone he is the best player in the world.. But that alone might not get him to "GOAT" status


i hope surag reads my post for him..

i agree here as well, individually he is the best player in the planet, but barca really highlight that to a big extent and so do other factors. messi is overated by people who think more of him than he actually is. i say we wait, hes the best player in the planet for many reasons, but some people go into other things and make other assumptions.


ronaldo is different but is better than messi in almost alot of departments except that of dribbling,decision making and passing among other minimal things but the success messi has with barcelona and that barcelona give him makes him the best player in the world.

why do you think a ronaldo last won the ballon d or in 2008? because of his success

since 2009 whos dominated? barca thus so has messi.
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Post by zizzle Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:47 am

we'll know how good he is once he moves to Inter. you know what they say, you're unproved untill you prove yourself in Italy :coffee:
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Post by LeSwagg James Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:49 am

The Madrid One wrote:
Swagg_Johnson wrote:
Surag.Blueguy wrote: In conclusion:You term Messi overrated because he has a team with wonderful players around which makes his job sort of easy..
And according to you he's all but a big flop and overrated at NT level
since Argentina dont really possess a great balanced team and hence failing to live up to his reputation..

Well thats your opinion and i certainly dont agree with it..

Yeah that's a reason why people might think he is over rated because he has an "easy job".. But the fact of the matter is, he plays in La Liga and Europe like hundreds of other players, yet there isn't anybody else that dribbles past defenders like he can and score a goal on a regular basis while making it look easily, and there isn't anybody else that can can play pin point passes as frequently as him to set up a goal.. Other player can do those things but not as much as him.. Those are INDIVIDUAL traits, what does his team have to do with it?

He is not as good for Argentina but his club form is so ridiculously great that on that alone he is the best player in the world.. But that alone might not get him to "GOAT" status


i hope surag reads my post for him..

i agree here as well, individually he is the best player in the planet, but barca really highlight that to a big extent and so do other factors. messi is overated by people who think more of him than he actually is. i say we wait, hes the best player in the planet for many reasons, but some people go into other things and make other assumptions.


Yeah some people take it too far.. But he is the best individually and is winning everything.. All he needs is to play at that level or close to for a few more years and win something with Argentina and it will be justified.. Going to a new league would answer a lot of these questions, its up to Messi if he wants to take the challenge
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Post by Giggslegend Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:49 am

he is not overated imo. Going to win ballon d´or for a third consecutive season for a reason..

He scored 50ish goals and delivered 30ish assists during last season, wich other player in history creates nearly 100 goals during a season while being the UCL top scorer aswell.

He is the king of el classico´s with his 13 goals in 15 games against madrid (don´t think this include the supercopa) and when you watch him play its mesmerising some times.

Yes he is not a great header of the ball but his overall game is still out of this world
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:49 am

zizzle wrote:we'll know how good he is once he moves to Inter. you know what they say, you're unproved untill you prove yourself in Italy :coffee:
Is Lionel Messi Over Glorified? Jose-Mourinho-lifts-the-C-006 Razz
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