The Racism Thread

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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:10 pm

^^from that perspective it should say something more intriguing about "financial wealth", do you know how many bum ass lazy rich white kids i've met in my life? Laughing works the other way too Wink

kids (and people for that matter) inherently don't care about external wealth (unless their mentality has been fully indoctrinated by capitalism) - the system is inherently fraught. What these rich young kids lack is spiritual guidance and a sense of connection/community to the rest of humanity. They have what you can call survivor's guilt/imposter's syndrome - many others of their skin colour are not in the same "socially accessible" position as them, that fraudness eats at them from within. Plus, they may be rich, but their skin colour still carries connotations.

No matter which angle you want to look at it, the problem remains the system.

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Post by McLewis Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:43 am

Myesyats wrote:
McLewis wrote:
Myesyats wrote:https://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/rich-black-flunking/Content?oid=1070459

To racial theorist Shelby Steele, the response to Ogbu's work was sad but predictable. Steele, a black research fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution and the author of The Content of Our Character: A New Vision of Race in America, has weathered similar criticism for his own provocative theories about the gap between blacks and whites. He believes continued societal deference to the victims of racial discrimination has permitted blacks "the license not to meet the same standards that others must meet," which has been detrimental to every aspect of African-American life. "To talk about black responsibility is "racist' and "blaming the victim,'" he says. "They just keep refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the living room -- black responsibility. When anybody in this culture today talks about black responsibility for their problems, they are condemned and ignored."


Why would Steele be surprised by such a response though? For every black student with a family that doesn't care about their academics, there are families that do. These families are the ones who objected to Ogbu's findings because they knew white conservatives would seize on such studies to declare ALL black families complicit in why black students struggle academically more than whites and asian students. I don't blame them reacting this way, especially when they're doing everything right by their kids and are being lumped in with the ones who are not.

Well, the text considers RICH black kids who are as privileged as whites and yet don't perform as well. Nobody throws all Black kids into one sack.


Point taken on that detail from the article.

However, plenty of people throw all black kids into one sack. Even rich black kids are likely getting followed around in stores and pulled over by cops at higher numbers than their white peers. Tamir Rice, a 12 year old boy, was shot to death by police because someone reported a black man wielding a gun at the park. he was playing with a toy gun. Black kids get profiled no matter their age, social or wealth status.
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Post by Myesyats Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:23 am

. wrote:The anthropologist also looked at peer pressure among black students to determine just what effect that had on school performance. He concluded that there was a culture among black students to reject behaviors perceived to be "white," which included making good grades, speaking Standard English, being overly involved in class, and enrolling in honors or advanced-placement courses. The students told Ogbu that engaging in these behaviors suggested one was renouncing his or her black identity. Ogbu concluded that the African-American peer culture, by and large, put pressure on students not to do well in school, as if it were an affront to blackness.

The professor says he discovered this sentiment even in middle- and upper-class homes where the parents were college-educated. "Black parents mistrusted the school system as a white institution," he wrote. They did not supervise their children's homework, didn't show up at school events, and failed to motivate their children to engage in their work. This too was a cultural norm, Ogbu concluded. "They thought or believed, that it was the responsibility of teachers and the schools to make their children learn and perform successfully; that is, they held the teachers, rather than themselves, accountable for their children's academic success or failure," he wrote.

How would you comment on this? If this is true, has the culture changed, or no?
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Post by Warrior Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:53 am

Babun wrote:
BLM Toronto leader believes white people are sub-human, calls them 'genetic defects'
https://thepostmillennial.com/blm-toronto-leader-believes-white-people-are-sub-human-calls-them-genetic-defects

Which excuses for this?

The Racism Thread - Page 36 Rent_f10


She is black supremacist, yes it exists just like white supremacism. All a bunch of idiots. Tonight i hang out with my buds at job, 4 "whites" 1 haitian 1 beninese 1 syrian. Nobody ever gives a flying fuck the skin color. That's reality i live in, and that's what everybody should aim imo

Extremists of all horizons will use violent terms and do intellectual masturbation, it's a shell used by people who are narcissist and weak, extremists will parasite ANY cause because what they seek deep down is to satisfy their exuberance
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:14 pm

Warrior wrote:
Babun wrote:
BLM Toronto leader believes white people are sub-human, calls them 'genetic defects'
https://thepostmillennial.com/blm-toronto-leader-believes-white-people-are-sub-human-calls-them-genetic-defects

Which excuses for this?

The Racism Thread - Page 36 Rent_f10


She is black supremacist, yes it exists just like white supremacism. All a bunch of idiots. Tonight i hang out with my buds at job, 4 "whites" 1 haitian 1 beninese 1 syrian. Nobody ever gives a flying fuck the skin color. That's reality i live in, and that's what everybody should aim imo

Extremists of all horizons will use violent terms and do intellectual masturbation, it's a shell used by people who are narcissist and weak, extremists will parasite ANY cause because what they seek deep down is to satisfy their exuberance

I couldn't care less about a random extremist. She is one of their leaders though and I see no backlash from within the BLM movement itself against the direction she is going.
On the rest, I wholeheartidly agree with you but as McLewis explained some posts before the racial issues in the US are real so the movements have got a point. I would refrain from critisizing their motivation. I disagree with the means they try to achieve their goals though, specially through violence. People like her indirectly instigate hatred, social division and violence. There're enough stupid people to get triggered in any group (for example rightwing, islamists etc.).
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Post by McLewis Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:32 am

Speaking of Black Supremacy, I'll let one of the best guys I follow on Twitter explain why we'll never see it in the same way we've seen white supremacy:



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Post by McLewis Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:00 pm

So we lost 2 absolute titans of the Civil Rights Era inside of 24 hours: Rep. John Lewis and Rev. C.T Vivian.

This is devastating for the black community here in the US. They were part of the original marches in the 60s with Lewis famously being beaten on TV by racist cops as he crossed the Edmund Pettis Bridge in Selma, Alabama. He later became a Congressman representing Georgia and was considered to be the "conscience of Congress". He did not attempt Trump's inauguration. Trump later accused him of being "all talk". His heroics during the Civil Rights movement say otherwise. He has been influential along with other prominent Black politicians like James Clyburn and Elijah Cummings, who we lost last year, in pushing through legislation to improve conditions in black communities. He was also key to gaining support on behalf of Obama during both of his successful elections.

C.T Vivian was considered, even by MLK himself, to be the preeminent black minister in the country during the 60s. He was instrumental in establishing the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC) which served as the original organizers of many of the protests that occured throughout the Civil Rights movement all over the Deep South. Without him, the SCLC would not have been able coordinate these protests as effectively as they did, meaning MLK's message would not have reached so many.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:36 pm

Covid related?
RIP to both of them
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Post by McLewis Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:18 pm

Nah, Lewis had cancer. Vivian passed of natural causes.
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Post by M99 Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:36 pm

@EG you seen Mkhaya Ntini talk about the racism he experienced from his own teammates in the South Africa cricket team?

I was surprised and not surprised at the same time. It seemed shocking that players like Pollock, Smith and Kallis would behave like that but obviously they all grew up during apartheid era. Felt really sad for him.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:47 pm

no man 👀 where's the video/article?
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Post by M99 Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:17 am

https://www.news24.com/amp/sport/cricket/proteas/makhaya-ntini-recalls-avoiding-riding-on-proteas-team-bus-i-was-running-away-from-loneliness-20200717

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Post by El Gunner Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:40 am

so sad, and he always seemed like such a lovely person.

but yea man what can i say, you can find some of the worst racism in South Africa. There was also a case with on a rugby punditry show, the one coloured presenter who is also a former player himself just had enough one day, walked out of the show on live tv and later said it's because his white colleagues made a habit of belittling his comments and opinions and never gave him enough time to offer his views before cutting in and interrupting.
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Post by Blue Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:44 am

You know what i believe i think people on the internet places too much value on political ideology when judging others. They tend to think people are who they are due to their political beliefs. I tend to think people act or behave in certain ways due to their personality and psychology. If you are an angry, hateful, narcissistic, etc person this is who you really are rather than your right or left political views you might hold.

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Post by Myesyats Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:38 am

Political language — and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists — is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. ~George Orwell

Both the right and the left are wrong, Classical liberalism is dead.
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Post by Pedram Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:01 pm

Myesyats wrote:Classical liberalism is dead.


Probably for good, unless you're talking about the civil aspects of classical liberalism, nobody wants to return to the 19th century conditions of the gilded age.
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Post by El Gunner Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:23 pm

Blue wrote:You know what i believe i think people on the internet places too much value on political ideology when judging others. They tend to think people are who they are due to their political beliefs. I tend to think people act or behave in certain ways due to their personality and psychology. If you are an angry, hateful, narcissistic, etc person this is who you really are rather than your right or left political views you might hold.


that raises a whole entire question then of are emotions natural kinds/states? I did this last year in detail in a course of mine. Very tricky investigation.

but in general, i disagree with you on this
I tend to think people act or behave in certain ways due to their personality and psychology. If you are an angry, hateful, narcissistic, etc person this is who you really are rather than your right or left political views you might hold.
because people can manipulate their own emotions through basic use of their awareness.


but then i get where you are coming from with this
You know what i believe i think people on the internet places too much value on political ideology when judging others. They tend to think people are who they are due to their political beliefs.
because how many times here have we reduced someone's views and opinions on a topic down to "oh you're a communist so this means you're like this and that and that" or vice versa.

political ideology functions on a sociological level, and every person is just an individual, a node in the system - subjected to it

therefore it all comes down to the principles we advocate and practice imo. And thus, my treatment of the other person will be dependent on how my value system engages with theirs.

Example: Person A will see a homeless person and scoff at them or ignore them = degenerate value system

Person B will make time for them and offer what help they can if the homeless person asks of it = basic anarchism
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Post by Myesyats Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:34 pm

Pedram wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Classical liberalism is dead.


Probably for good, unless you're talking about the civil aspects of classical liberalism, nobody wants to return to the 19th century conditions of the gilded age.

There's a few core principles of classical liberalism, 3 of which I find particularly valuable that have been or could be lost, but there are more, obviously

1. The Equality Principle — So long as everyone enjoys a minimum quality of life, there is nothing morally wrong with inequality.

2. The Competition Principle — Competitive markets are almost always better than Governments at delivering goods and services.

3. The Power Principle — Power should be concentrated as close to the individual as possible. Individual’s freedom shouldn't be sacrified for some collective benefit – at least, not without some very good justification.


Modern American liberalism is very different to classical liberalism. It has degenerated.
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Post by Babun Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:12 pm

Myesyats wrote:
Pedram wrote:
Myesyats wrote:Classical liberalism is dead.


Probably for good, unless you're talking about the civil aspects of classical liberalism, nobody wants to return to the 19th century conditions of the gilded age.

There's a few core principles of classical liberalism, 3 of which I find particularly valuable that have been or could be lost, but there are more, obviously

1. The Equality Principle — So long as everyone enjoys a minimum quality of life, there is nothing morally wrong with inequality. People aren't born equal in the first place, not even siblings in the same family. However, they should enjoy equality in front of the law and equal opportunities to achieve their goals. The rest should be up to them. No gouvernment should babysit people.

2. The Competition Principle — Competitive markets are almost always better than Governments at delivering goods and services.Uncompetitive markets under the control of the gouverment literally invites corruption. This was demonstrated best in the soviet union and now in China. Very few who aren't qualified hold too much power in the decision making process. They aren't punished by the market for their missmanagement. All they have to do is to align with policy of their party..

3. The Power Principle — Power should be concentrated as close to the individual as possible. Individual’s  freedom  shouldn't be sacrified for some  collective  benefit –  at  least,  not without  some  very  good  justification.Refering to 1. again, a gouvernment isn't there to babysit people but shouldn't be allowed to order around either the way a police state does without restrictions. Strict distinction between the judicative, legislative and the executive ist required. A communist state already fails at the later from the get to go.


Modern American liberalism is very different to classical liberalism. It has degenerated.
Added some notes :coffee:
In my view, the political system of a democracy failed after the powerful realized they could manipulate public opinion by using media. Modern media is the fourth pillar of a democracy after the judicative, executive and the legislative. Its purpose is supposed to be to oversee the strict distinction between the later three for a citizen to objectively decide how to vote. Instead, modern media has become the preferred tool of the powerful ones to manipulate public opinion in their favour and interests. The emergence of Trump and Biden as the top candidates shows it. People aren't stupid though, no one believes CNN or Fox news 100% anymore. There is no investigative journalism or a proper essay about political positions of a candidate left.
I'd say the fall of the media as the fourth supervisor pillar of the democracy lead us to the situation at hand as of now. If one reads the news outlets from the USA, it looks like as if there is no middle class and just extremist view all over the place. In reality, those people don't even make 10% of the population.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:57 pm

^^so if you believe democracy is broken Babun, what's the next step for society?
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:40 am

El Gunner wrote:^^so if you believe democracy is broken Babun, what's the next step for society?

Replacing a faulty system with one which never functioned(communism) isn't the solution. Usually, one fixes what is broken, in this case, little control over the content in the media.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:48 am

i didn't even mention communism (yet), come on man Laughing :facepalm:

but how is that possible if media houses are just another capitalist institution?
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Post by Babun Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:10 am

El Gunner wrote:i didn't even mention communism (yet), come on man Laughing :facepalm:

but how is that possible if media houses are just another capitalist institution?

The way England, Germany or Italy do it: we pay monthly fee for a neutral news network which isn't dependant on capitalism as you say. BBC, RAI, ARD and ZDF for example or find another solution. There's no one perfect solution.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:27 am

our state-run media are not 'neutral'
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Post by Myesyats Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:33 pm

Our government just recently voted to give $250M to state tv instead of cancer treatment lol, no joke that was the choice

Now they're spewing propaganda 24/7 smh, it's sad what corruption does to the peoples
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:15 pm

Babun wrote:
El Gunner wrote:i didn't even mention communism (yet), come on man Laughing :facepalm:

but how is that possible if media houses are just another capitalist institution?

The way England, Germany or Italy do it: we pay monthly fee for a neutral news network which isn't dependant on capitalism as you say. BBC, RAI, ARD and ZDF for example or find another solution. There's no one perfect solution.


Imagine putting Italian media as an example for the world to follow Laughing

Even the once revered BBC has come under heavy scrutiny for obviously biased reporting during the last election

The solution is not state-run anything but enforcement of anti-trust laws that ensure no group gets too much influence and there is a wide variety of interests represented. We shouldn't have a situation where 4 billionaires own all the TV, radio and newspaper stations.
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