Re: The Racism Thread

[Myesyats]

Nazis aside Israel wouldnt exist at all. Nothing like genocide to kick peoples ass into gear to make(or take in their case) your own country. I wouldnt be shocked if Poland supported the death camps. Europeans have historically had a hate boner for the Jewish population. It wasnt just Germany/Austria and Italy.

The Korea thing is just cultural. I think I remember saying on here. My youngest sister was born during a difficult labor process, in which we seemed to be in a hospital waiting room for hours. When the doctor finally came out to speak to us my grandfather, with tears in his eyes, asked: "Tell me doctor, Will She hate koreans as much as he?" while pointing at me. Thank god she was ok and is my little homie now, but I never forgot that. I didnt hate Koreans, and honestly he didnt either(hopefully). It was just the expectation he placed on me based on culture. People fall into racism not by being full racists themselves, but just going along with the flow of cultural norms. Its just as bad as being actual racists in the end.

That's a bit of a stretch. Jews in poland were poles too and they were living peacefully together with other religions and nationalities. There was no widespread anti-jew movement. Besides jew-poles and regular poles were both thrown into death camps alongisde each other.

[Young Kaz]

Nazis aside Israel wouldnt exist at all. Nothing like genocide to kick peoples ass into gear to make(or take in their case) your own country. I wouldnt be shocked if Poland supported the death camps. Europeans have historically had a hate boner for the Jewish population. It wasnt just Germany/Austria and Italy.

The Korea thing is just cultural. I think I remember saying on here. My youngest sister was born during a difficult labor process, in which we seemed to be in a hospital waiting room for hours. When the doctor finally came out to speak to us my grandfather, with tears in his eyes, asked: "Tell me doctor, Will She hate koreans as much as he?" while pointing at me. Thank god she was ok and is my little homie now, but I never forgot that. I didnt hate Koreans, and honestly he didnt either(hopefully). It was just the expectation he placed on me based on culture. People fall into racism not by being full racists themselves, but just going along with the flow of cultural norms. Its just as bad as being actual racists in the end.

That's a bit of a stretch. Jews in poland were poles too and they were living peacefully together with other religions and nationalities. There was no widespread anti-jew movement. Besides jew-poles and regular poles were both thrown into death camps alongisde each other.

90+% of Poland's population identifies as Catholic. Come on now. You telling me there is no widespread hatred of a group that, by following the own religious dogma that your population follows, killed their messiah? If what you say is true they would have all been in Poland to escape persecution elsewhere.

[Babun]

Nazis aside Israel wouldnt exist at all. Nothing like genocide to kick peoples ass into gear to make(or take in their case) your own country. I wouldnt be shocked if Poland supported the death camps. Europeans have historically had a hate boner for the Jewish population. It wasnt just Germany/Austria and Italy.

The Korea thing is just cultural. I think I remember saying on here. My youngest sister was born during a difficult labor process, in which we seemed to be in a hospital waiting room for hours. When the doctor finally came out to speak to us my grandfather, with tears in his eyes, asked: "Tell me doctor, Will She hate koreans as much as he?" while pointing at me. Thank god she was ok and is my little homie now, but I never forgot that. I didnt hate Koreans, and honestly he didnt either(hopefully). It was just the expectation he placed on me based on culture. People fall into racism not by being full racists themselves, but just going along with the flow of cultural norms. Its just as bad as being actual racists in the end.

That's a bit of a stretch. Jews in poland were poles too and they were living peacefully together with other religions and nationalities. There was no widespread anti-jew movement. Besides jew-poles and regular poles were both thrown into death camps alongisde each other.

90+% of Poland's population identifies as Catholic. Come on now. You telling me there is no widespread hatred of a group that, by following the own religious dogma that your population follows, killed their messiah? If what you say is true they would have all been in Poland to escape persecution elsewhere.

You're right. The hate towards Jews wasn't cultural though. The christianised romans started it and it spread like wildfire all around Europe. Catholic church is the source of the antisemitism. They couldn't tolerate comminities much older than them (jews going by the book of tora predecessing old testament and islam) not accepting christianism. Just so you know, tora and koran regard people posing as gods or god's kin as blasphemy. For them, Jesus (Isaa) is one of the prophets like any other (funnily enough Jesus also holy in islam ).
Oh yeah, the basis of all the hate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot

They projected Judas on jews of course to assossiate them with each other. Somehow no one mentioned Jesus was also a jew

[Myesyats]

Nazis aside Israel wouldnt exist at all. Nothing like genocide to kick peoples ass into gear to make(or take in their case) your own country. I wouldnt be shocked if Poland supported the death camps. Europeans have historically had a hate boner for the Jewish population. It wasnt just Germany/Austria and Italy.

The Korea thing is just cultural. I think I remember saying on here. My youngest sister was born during a difficult labor process, in which we seemed to be in a hospital waiting room for hours. When the doctor finally came out to speak to us my grandfather, with tears in his eyes, asked: "Tell me doctor, Will She hate koreans as much as he?" while pointing at me.  Thank god she was ok and is my little homie now, but I never forgot that.  I didnt hate Koreans, and honestly he didnt either(hopefully). It was just the expectation he placed on me based on culture. People fall into racism not by being full racists themselves, but just going along with the flow of cultural norms. Its just as bad as being actual racists in the end.

That's a bit of a stretch. Jews in poland were poles too and they were living peacefully together with other religions and nationalities. There was no widespread anti-jew movement. Besides jew-poles and regular poles were both thrown into death camps alongisde each other.

90+% of Poland's population identifies as Catholic. Come on now. You telling me there is no widespread hatred of a group that, by following the own religious dogma that your population follows, killed their messiah? If what you say is true they would have all been in Poland to escape persecution elsewhere.

Well I never said everyone loves jews, but disapproval/prejudice is still a long way from death camps. A lot of jews in interwar Poland refused to speak polish and lived separate lives using the Hebrew language. That was fueling prejudice of course but as far as poles supporting concentration camps, I've not seen any evidence. Before hitler invaded they were not prosecuted or targeted in any way on poland's territory on a large scale so it's wrong to say that poland ever supported the camps, in fact poles tried everything to get word out to the british about the existence of such camps so that the world would know.

[Thimmy]

You really are clutching at straws here, Mystats

I don’t know how you can compare this to the beheading of infidels. Even if I try to rationalize that comparison, it’s really farfetched.

It was just to illustrate that customs don't always carry over and in no way I was trying to imply that the severity of both acts is comparable, obviously.

Of course, I know you exaggerated to illustrate your point. I still don’t think it was a good point for comparison. A more fitting comparison would be if I was an EPL football player and the FA had fined me for using the commonly used, Norwegian slang term «halla» (basically ‘yo’) while talking to a friend on social media, because it resembled an offensive term among a British minority.

I don’t remember the details surrounding the roots of that word, I don’t think many do, but I do recall that it was inspired by a foreign word that meant something else. I wouldn’t put up with being held accountable for offending someone by using that word, when it’s a socially acceptable term among the people in the country where I was born and raised, not to mention among both participants of the chat. Cavani reacted as fast as one could expect him to, by removing the tweet and apologizing for it. They still fined him for more than twice of what people in many countries earn in a year. Outrageous This is bullying of a foreigner, in the name of anti-racism.

Besides I agree Cavani shouldn't have been fined and I was merely trying to play devil's advocate as you know I'm not very PC-oriented
Well, you know yourself better than anyone, but I get the impression that you’ve adopted a tendency to try and rationalize PC culture in recent time. It’s good to try to understand things from different perspectives, but I do think you’re clutching at straws in this particular discussion.

Good thing you moved this to the racism thread, McLewis. Blatant xenophobia by the FA towards Cavani

[Hapless_Hans]

I was wrong about Suarez. I was wrong about Bernardo Silva and what he said to Mendy. I was wrong about Europeans who wear black face to celebrate holidays. I was even wrong about Serie A hanging art of monkeys at their HQ as a misguided attempt at a statement against racism. None of what was done in those instances was inherently racist, to me, because all of it is absent intent and malice.

Actual racists (like the ones who do the monkey chants) know what they're doing. It's always intentional. It's never accidental. I confused those facts.

I feel awful for Cavani.

Going to answer here, as you suggested.

While the bolded part is right, and this is an important observation, and while I very much respect and commend being self-critical and reflective, I think that probably in the above cases you were not always completely wrong, and if so then surely to very varying degrees.

I think the cases are very different.

The Cavani one is the most obvious one. There's quite simply nothing racist there whatsoever. You can't even really call it tone-deaf or such, if he's talking to a South American friend.
The whole thing is maddeningly stupid and confused on part of the FA.

Griezmann, I thought it was wrong to drag him into the black face debate like that, and ideally, "in an ideal world" as the saying goes, I would hope a guy like Griezmann could pose for carnival as a black Harlem Globe Trotter player (costumes always have an element of stereotype anyway), as an homage, when he's a fan of them.
Yet it is not an ideal world, but a world where a history of racist stereotyping exists, and it was arguably quite naive and tone-deaf to actually go and do it and put up a photo of it when he did it, and it's not surprising there was excitement and backlash. On the whole, it wasn't a big deal I guess.

In the European usage of 'black face', as in the 3 kings catholic celebration, this is something that needs to be debated, deconstructed, targeted for its historical racist content, in connection with the existing racism in Europe today.
It is defintively not a nothing debate, there's things to work through there, it needs to happen, and it's good if it happens, in all the specific countries or regions.
BUT it is in relevant parts very different from the US cultural and sociopolitical history and therefore it can feel very annoying when these differences are just swept aside, which blocks the way to understanding what's been going on in Europe. To simply sweep in and brute-force-equate this to the 'black-face' of the US is not doing this justice.
Because it's not like there's not a specific element of structural racism at work here in these traditions, too.
It's for example tied to the history of the figure, notion, and word of the 'moor', something that predates the US quite considerably. It's a long complicated, and tricky history, and without a doubt a racist one too as it becomes entangled with colonialism.
It feels like somewhere there, in the early history of colonialism, is the nucleus of modern structural racism. It doesn't invent 'racism' as resentment against strangers, foreigners, 'exotic' people. I'm really not an expert on this and there's surely much work already done which I have not read at all,  but it feels like in the course of colonialism  the moor, which might have been to a degree a "noble savage" kind of figure, or even a refinedly cultured exotic figure, before, becomes an subhuman, an animal, which is justified to be enslaved, terrorized and exploited, with the whole torrent of accompanying racist discourse (legal, biological, literary, scientific, political, everyday language) that follows in the centuries after.
Yet the moor in the three kings ritual is more of a throw-back to the noble, cultured, exotic figure that predates, and now maybe serves as the other side of the medal, to modern racism. It's not malevolent, but more or less benevolent (doesn't mean there's not racist mechanisms involved).


On the other hand, the thing with the Italian FA's 'anti-racist' campaign with the monkey pictures, it's amazing.
Because yes, there's no 'racist intent', in fact there really is 'anti-racist' intent, but it's so illuminating an example of an attempt steeped in a structurally racist discoursive environment.
Because literally ANY black guy they could have asked could have told them that this is naive and ignorant beyond believe.
They just should have listened to the people who are actually affectted, involved, and with experience about racism.
But guess what? There are no black people in the Italian FA, they are white old men, and they don't have the presence of mind and humility to acknowledge this as problematic.
They actually think they can decide what's racist and what's anti-racist all alone, that it's not a big deal, and it's a clear sign of how naivety, arrogance, ignorance, privilege and entitlement carries on structural racism even with the best intentions. And then something so absolutely mind-bogglingly tone-deaf and problemtaic ensues.

I do think the intent part should factor in when deciding whether anyone should be given a break or not, when we say or do something problematic. Which everyone does all the time.
But still, personal 'intent' is only relevant on a certain level. A superficial level, if you will. The notion of structural racism includes that individual intent doesn't really matter when the structure of our society has elements of racism.
Something can be 'inherently' racist exaclty  when it's not 'intentional'.
And language is one fundamental structure of human society, that's why it's not absurd at all to focus on words and their occurrence.
But then language (and society) is also not just a structure, there's decades of theory after that.
It's a performative act, it's an event, it's always contextual, changing, creative, complicated. There is difference and differences. Maybe at some point the twitter fight against racism will have to move into the post-structuralist era, too.

Anyway, I agree with your point in that there's loads of active, aggressive, malevolent racists to focus on if we want to go after individual people's utterances or instagram posts.

[McLewis]

Well said, Hans.

I think my thinking on black folks and Serie A has evolved the most over a year. Serie A's back office and leadership needs to reflect the teams that play in it. People of color need to get into positions of power within this league to truly change it from within. I used to think (just months ago actually) that black players should stay away from Serie A as I feared them getting racially abused like so many already have been. I think the opposite needs to happen. More need to come here. The best way to eliminate racism, to me, is through normalization of integration. The more POC seen, heard, listened to and talked with, the more it's learned that they're nothing like what the racists believe them to be. They become normal people and that makes the actual racists incidents not only stand out more, but now the punishments and reactions will be far more severe.

Serie A needs that. It likely won't happen, but that's what it needs.

[Thimmy]

It needs to be said that we’d all benefit from both of you putting more effort into segregating your points into paragraphs

[McLewis]

So today has been Martin Luther King, Jr Day here in the US.

While it should be a day to celebrate one of the greatest people of the last century, it has devolved into an annual attempt to white-wash American history and paint him as someone he was not.

Republicans and conservatives, who do not support MLK's core beliefs, spend this day purporting to do just that while their policies do the exact opposite while also trying to paint him as someone who was actually on their side of the spectrum all along. It's deeply offensive. Here are some samples:

Today we honor one of our nation’s
great heroes. Dr. King called on America to truly fulfill our founding principles and provide justice and opportunity for all. His work and his example have brought us a long way and they inspire us to keep working. pic.twitter.com/nOKGJS1Jlb

— Leader McConnell (@senatemajldr) January 18, 2021

Peace will only come when those of us who have enjoyed the American Dream become aware of those who are missing out. Let's wish Dr. Martin Luther King a happy birthday by uniting the two Americas into one: an America that includes justice for one, and justice for all. #MLKDay

— Senator Rand Paul (@RandPaul) January 18, 2021

Today, we honor the life of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

“I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits." -MLK, Jr. #MLKDay pic.twitter.com/BiKpvRhCop

— Ivanka Trump (@IvankaTrump) January 18, 2021

“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.#MLKDay

— Lauren Boebert (@laurenboebert) January 18, 2021

Every single one of these morons has done something that has gone against Dr. King's teachings and beliefs. Yet they have the audacity and caucasity to quote him as if they really believe what he believed in.

And then we have the Trump administration releasing bullshit like this:

The 1776 Commission

It was created as partly a response to Nikole-Hannah Jones' Pulitzer Prize-winning 1619 Project, which painted the beginning of the US from the time the first African slaves stepped foot on this land. The 1776 Commission seeks to re-white-wash American History and even features actual apologia for the slavery supported by many of the Founding Fathers. It's incredibly racist stuff. I just finished reading it and I truly want to wash my eyes out with molten lava.

There could not be a bigger insult to MLK's legacy than to release something so historically inaccurate and damaging.

[FennecFox7]

I don’t understand. Are conservatives not allowed to celebrate MLK day? Come on man. I mean they don’t agree with leftist policies, that’s what makes them conservative. It’s not the views they’re celebrating, it’s mlk being a great human being, WHY DOES EVERYTHING have to be about the left vs the right?


I feel as if you’re getting swallowed in this hole of hate and that’s a trap. I’m so sick and tired of the division in our country, it’s genuinely making me angry. Focusing on this stupid shit is what the MSM wants you to do, they don’t want you to see the truth; whoever is in power, we are going towards authoritarian rule. We basically have a police state, an oligarchy, Pretty soon we’ll be just like China. Free trade is still rampant. We are destroying our planet. The rich are running away from this pandemic lining their pockets with small businesses destroyed while a stimulus package was tossed around like a hot potato in Congress.

Here’s my suggestion. For today; why don’t we all shut  the hell up about politics, yes that includes me, and think about what unites us, not what divides us. People have more in common then they are led to believe. Or do you want this country to turn into Algeria; because trust me, you do not want that.

[El Gunner]

McLewis's point stands. The hypocrisy is damning by those white conservatives. But by now he should know that politics is just a game of spectacle, so i entirely agree with your second paragraph.

[Myesyats]

The right has always been a bunch of hypocrites @McLewis

Currently America has fallen into that trap and thus you have the army on standby in the streets. The only correct response to this is improve and invest in education. That is the only way to root out ignorance.

[McLewis]

I don’t understand. Are conservatives not allowed to celebrate MLK day? Come on man. I mean they don’t agree with leftist policies, that’s what makes them conservative. It’s not the views they’re celebrating, it’s mlk being a great human being, WHY DOES EVERYTHING have to be about the left vs the right?

I feel as if you’re getting swallowed in this hole of hate and that’s a trap. I’m so sick and tired of the division in our country, it’s genuinely making me angry. Focusing on this stupid shit is what the MSM wants you to do, they don’t want you to see the truth; whoever is in power, we are going towards authoritarian rule. We basically have a police state, an oligarchy, Pretty soon we’ll be just like China. Free trade is still rampant. We are destroying our planet. The rich are running away from this pandemic lining their pockets with small businesses destroyed while a stimulus package was tossed around like a hot potato in Congress.

Here’s my suggestion. For today; why don’t we all shut  the hell up about politics, yes that includes me, and think about what unites us, not what divides us. People have more in common then they are led to believe. Or do you want this country to turn into Algeria; because trust me, you do not want that.

Conservatives who aren't fucking hypocrites will get absolutely no complaint from me. Conservatives who aren't racist demogogues will not hear a peep from me at all. Unfortunately, those people either are deaf and mute or they don't exist. All that remains on the right are Trumpists. They get all the smoke. Everything's about left and right because absolutely every policy in American politics hinges on which end of the spectrum one sits. Every single facet of our lives was shaped by a policy coming from the left or the right. It can't be ignored.

And I got outraged about this all on my own. I needed no help from the MSM here. I do my own thinking. This is not  "stupid shit". Maybe to you, but it absolutely isn't to me.  Before he was an icon, MLK was first and foremost a Black man in America who died at the hands of a white man. There is something visceral about his legacy being fucking disrespected by white people who very likely would've hated him had they known him when he was alive. So so this "stupid shit" matters. It's the microcosm for absolutely everything you outlined that is happening to the black communities all over this country.

I can't and won't shut up about this. I don't have the luxury of just sticking my fingers in my ears, closing my eyes, and pretending I can't hear or see the absolutely dire state the right have left this country in. You're free to absolutely ignore me, but I'm going to keep speaking. And I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and ignore the major systemic problems in this country. When I see a reason to think about what "unites" us, I'll do so. As of right now, I don't. This country only ever comes together in one particular scenario: When a foreign entity attacks us. Look at 9/11 for evidence. You want me to think more about unity? Maybe I will do that when the motherfuckers who got away with every crime under the goddamn sun over the last 4 years, including the last 2 weeks, are brought to justice.

Until then, I don't give a blue fuck about "unity". I care about calling out racism and hypocrisy when I see it.

[Warrior]

Those tweets are the result of political correctness

Now you are victim of it and you take it personal

Btw i also laugh of this hypocrisy, 1776 commission seems terrible, sadly racism will take a long time to disappear. Seeing such counter-productive pamphlets is annoying because it slows the process.

[Young Kaz]

Mclewis speaking the truth.

This thread is a good example in spirit of ADOS, and the spirit of those who run. A lot of immigrants come over here Mclewis, and allah knows i dont want to say it, but they are just happy to be here. They dont want it to be anything more. They think they come over here, have some feel good stories, and its all gravy. They dont want to call out these republicans because at the end of the day they want THEIR ACCEPTANCE.

Anybody with even a cursory knowledge of American history knows these republicans made Dr King's life a living hell the short 39 years he walked this earth. They should not speak his name at all, much less on the day we celebrate him.

[BarrileteCosmico]

But in Dr King's time the republicans were the good party, right?

Republicans can celebrate MLK day, why not? McConnell, Ivanka, Rand & all the rest who have a proven record of not caring a lick for social justice are simply playing lip service and should rightfully be criticized for it.

[McLewis]

Those tweets are the result of political correctness

Now you are victim of it and you take it personal

Btw i also laugh of this hypocrisy, 1776 commission seems terrible, sadly racism will take a long time to disappear. Seeing such counter-productive pamphlets is annoying because it slows the process.

As BC said, they are paying lip service and trying to "claim" Dr. King supported their ideology when he clearly did not. They cherry-pick quotes from his speeches to support their ideology and pin his legacy to it. They constantly vacillate between adoration of his membership as a Republican ( which is not the current iteration of the part) and their scorn for the fact that he was a radical and was willing to befriend just about anyone who could help him with his mission from Malcolm X and the Nation to the Communist Party, which landed him on the FBI's radar. It's beyond offensive.

I am not a victim of this "political correctness" as you put it. Dr. King's legacy is. That is what pisses me off.

The 1776 Commission is more than annoying. It's dangerous, inaccurate, and reckless. It will likely get taught in schools in Republican-controlled school districts, ensuring yet more generations of white folks growing up believing a very white-washed history of this nature.

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