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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:25 pm

I think he pulled a gun too, but would have to rewatch to confirm

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:29 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:I think he pulled a gun too, but would have to rewatch to confirm



Ah, welp then all sympathy gone. That will get you fired.

He was working as a veterans coordinator for a University. He was probably a GI Joke himself in the past.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:32 pm

just rewatched, he had a gun but did not point it at them

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Post by danyjr on Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:59 pm

I remember the first time I flew into NYC, I took the train from JFK airport to Jamaica (station) to get on the MTA subway. And outside the subway gates there were 3-4 black folks selling fake tickets to tourists. The rest of my trip was filled with instances like this, black people doing illegal stuff.

Then I remember walking around Central Park one day and realising how the neighbourhood changes from the south to north. From the wealthy white Chelsea neighbourhood to black ghettos of Harlem with only a long park dividing them. On one hand you had some of most luxurious places I'd seen in my life, everything was glittering and everyone was pretty and dolled up. And on the other hand you had tens of homeless black people, some whom were in need of medical help, and the whole place stank of shit.

I find the States to be all about divisions and segregation. And not necessarily because white Americans are racist because the majority of them aren't.

The way I see it is this: when blacks broke out of enslavement of the white man, they didn't suddenly become equal to the white folks. White folks owned everything in the country, so blacks had to move to the shittiest parts of towns to set up their lives. There were no schools, no hospitals, no nothing. And just because slavery was abolished doesn't mean racism was gone. Most white establishments refused to have black folks entering them for years, let alone having them study or work there. The black folks lived in poverty in their own impoverished communities.

And it is not the racism that carries on to this day, but its legacy. If you're black in US, you start 100 points behind the others when you're born. You're born in the shitties part of town, your family might be separated, the schools in your locale are poor, and everyone around you is poorly educated and into dodgy stuff. You want to make a life for yourself but the infrastructure isn't there, because there is no social measures in place to close that gap. So you end up selling fake tickets and the like, so the vicious circle is complete. You're a criminal, and so your children will be.

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Post by CBarca on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:08 pm

As someone from the US and especially WI, let me say: you're not wrong, but I think you're downplaying modern day racism. There is actually a significant amount of people are pretty racist.

Maybe not explicitly. I don't think there are many who would call a black person the n word just because that's how they feel towards black people. But there is a lot of racism.

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:09 pm

@danyjr wrote:I remember the first time I flew into NYC, I took the train from JFK airport to Jamaica (station) to get on the MTA subway. And outside the subway gates there were 3-4 black folks selling fake tickets to tourists. The rest of my trip was filled with instances like this, black people doing illegal stuff.

Then I remember walking around Central Park one day and realising how the neighbourhood changes from the south to north. From the wealthy white Chelsea neighbourhood to black ghettos of Harlem with only a long park dividing them. On one hand you had some of most luxurious places I'd seen in my life, everything was glittering and everyone was pretty and dolled up. And on the other hand you had tens of homeless black people, some whom were in need of medical help, and the whole place stank of shit.

I find the States to be all about divisions and segregation. And not necessarily because white Americans are racist because the majority of them aren't.

The way I see it is this: when blacks broke out of enslavement of the white man, they didn't suddenly become equal to the white folks. White folks owned everything in the country, so blacks had to move to the shittiest parts of towns to set up their lives. There were no schools, no hospitals, no nothing. And just because slavery was abolished doesn't mean racism was gone. Most white establishments refused to have black folks entering them for years, let alone having them study or work there. The black folks lived in poverty in their own impoverished communities.

And it is not the racism that carries on to this day, but its legacy. If you're black in US, you start 100 points behind the others when you're born. You're born in the shitties part of town, your family might be separated, the schools in your locale are poor, and everyone around you is poorly educated and into dodgy stuff. You want to make a life for yourself but the infrastructure isn't there, because there is no social measures in place to close that gap. So you end up selling fake tickets and the like, so the vicious circle is complete. You're a criminal, and so your children will be.


I bolded and highlighted this part because this is where the question arises.

How are you able to say this definitively as someone from another country?
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Post by El Gunner on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:42 pm

@danyjr wrote:I remember the first time I flew into NYC, I took the train from JFK airport to Jamaica (station) to get on the MTA subway. And outside the subway gates there were 3-4 black folks selling fake tickets to tourists. The rest of my trip was filled with instances like this, black people doing illegal stuff.

Then I remember walking around Central Park one day and realising how the neighbourhood changes from the south to north. From the wealthy white Chelsea neighbourhood to black ghettos of Harlem with only a long park dividing them. On one hand you had some of most luxurious places I'd seen in my life, everything was glittering and everyone was pretty and dolled up. And on the other hand you had tens of homeless black people, some whom were in need of medical help, and the whole place stank of shit.

I find the States to be all about divisions and segregation. And not necessarily because white Americans are racist because the majority of them aren't.

The way I see it is this: when blacks broke out of enslavement of the white man, they didn't suddenly become equal to the white folks. White folks owned everything in the country, so blacks had to move to the shittiest parts of towns to set up their lives. There were no schools, no hospitals, no nothing. And just because slavery was abolished doesn't mean racism was gone. Most white establishments refused to have black folks entering them for years, let alone having them study or work there. The black folks lived in poverty in their own impoverished communities.

And it is not the racism that carries on to this day, but its legacy. If you're black in US, you start 100 points behind the others when you're born. You're born in the shitties part of town, your family might be separated, the schools in your locale are poor, and everyone around you is poorly educated and into dodgy stuff. You want to make a life for yourself but the infrastructure isn't there, because there is no social measures in place to close that gap. So you end up selling fake tickets and the like, so the vicious circle is complete. You're a criminal, and so your children will be.

your post is perfectly spot on, except for the bold part because there you are assuming - those divisions and segregation is called systemic racism.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:51 pm

@CBarca wrote:As someone from the US and especially WI, let me say: you're not wrong, but I think you're downplaying modern day racism. There is actually a significant amount of people are pretty racist.

Maybe not explicitly. I don't think there are many who would call a black person the n word just because that's how they feel towards black people. But there is a lot of racism.
in the northeast it's mostly below the surface, so danny's experience mirrors my own. Racism is mostly handled systematically by segregation rather than overtly (like I hear sometimes happens in the south). But I've definitely heard of people talk about "bad neighborhoods" knowing exactly what they meant.

For instance, this is a map of Boston, you can see clearly how there is a black area, a hispanic area, and while asians are more integrated the location of chinatown is also very clearly marked

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:07 pm

And of course its not all white people, but to say its not the majority is a real shot in the dark.

I remember being in high school and the white kids on the baseball team not allowing black,mexican, or Asian kids into their house. This was a thing enough to the point of its always sunny making a joke about it on the second episode. We had to remain outside to the kid was ready.You know it was just the way things were. We knew it was racism, but 2003-07 was a lot different than today...and Im sure its not much different now.

I remember on standardized tests they would always move me to a corner so nobody else was anywhere near me. I always thought it was because I was such a kick ass student, but they did it to my sister too who wasnt. Come to find out other Asians students got it too because they thought people would cheat off us. God help the poor kid who cheated off my sister Laughing

I remember being in spelling bees at the school, and how parents would yell "Win one for America" at the white kids but never for the rest of us up there despite the fact that most of us were born in the exact same hospital as the white kids.

Systemic racism is only systemic if most of the population buy into it and share the beliefs. And most white Americans are RACIST AS HELL. Its not malicious. I dont think the kids on my baseball team knew how bad it was they wouldnt let us non white kids into their house when we were preparing to go to matches, but ignorance and lack of maliciousness does not make it any less racist.

I got to college and met People from all over the country and they had similar stories.
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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 pm

And honestly keeping it 100% I've NEVER been in a white persons house despite them making up the majority of the state I live in. Its always been "You gotta wait outside". Its an ingrained thing.
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Post by Arquitecto on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:20 pm

Holy hell if we continue to resort to anecdotal evidence then I profess my own experiences along with other bystanders of how they too were discriminated for being white since groups of minority do carry a chip on their shoulder towards white individuals.

To say *most* white Americans are racist is a baseless and fallacious claim.


And no, your personal eye-test on that does not matter nor does posting another CCP propaganda video.

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:25 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Holy hell if we continue to resort to anecdotal evidence then I profess my own experiences along with other bystanders of how they too were discriminated for being white since groups of minority do carry a chip on their shoulder towards white individuals.

To say *most* white Americans are racist is a baseless and fallacious claim.


And no, your personal eye-test on that does not matter nor does posting another CCP propaganda video.


You dont live here so you dont understand honestly. It isnt my personal eye test. Its talking to a lot of people when I got to university, and adulthood, who had the same experiences as me.

Is it Italy type of racism where I was having ape chants and Bananas thrown at me on the baseball field and at school? No, but it was there in ways I described and in many other ways which I did not.

Instead of outright dismissing go on any forum made up of minorities in the US and see how many people had experiences the same as mine. Hell, maybe even worse. It wasnt a cakewalk growing up Japanese, but even then I know I had a lot of privilege being associated with a nation that was perceived as trendy in the early part of the 21st century, and myself by being quite exceptional in the classroom.
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Post by danyjr on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:38 pm

Whether the majority of white Americans are racist or not is the secondary issue here. There will always be racist people in America, be it white or black or whatever. The governmental and judicial systems should be set up in such a way to take away the power from such people so they:
1- are not in a position of power to discriminate
2- be liable if they do

We can't fix black people's lives by kneeling before football matches and carrying Black Lives Matter boards. Believe me, no racist person will give a fuck about all of this to change. It is a waste of everyone's time.

Discrimination and racism can be fixed by mixing people at an early age. The poor and the rich. The black and the white. There needs to be a Federal level intervention to close this gap. But that is against capitalism, so things won't change until social measures are in place.

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Post by Myesyats on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:41 pm

@Arquitecto wrote:Holy hell if we continue to resort to anecdotal evidence then I profess my own experiences along with other bystanders of how they too were discriminated for being white since groups of minority do carry a chip on their shoulder towards white individuals.

To say *most* white Americans are racist is a baseless and fallacious claim.


And no, your personal eye-test on that does not matter nor does posting another CCP propaganda video.

It's actually quite remarkable what is going on at this board. I can't believe my eyes

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Post by Young Kaz on Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:49 pm

@danyjr wrote:Whether the majority of white Americans are racist or not is the secondary issue here. There will always be racist people in America, be it white or black or whatever. The governmental and judicial systems should be set up in such a way to take away the power from such people so they:
1- are not in a position of power to discriminate
2- be liable if they do

We can't fix black people's lives by kneeling before football matches and carrying Black Lives Matter boards. Believe me, no racist person will give a fuck about all of this to change. It is a waste of everyone's time.

Discrimination and racism can be fixed by mixing people at an early age. The poor and the rich. The black and the white. There needs to be a Federal level intervention to close this gap. But that is against capitalism, so things won't change until social measures are in place.


This sounds like kum ba yah nonsense though.

I didnt go to a segregated school(well after my International Japanese elementary school) and the racism didnt stop it. People just segregated within integrated schools. Like I mentioned in my post, and in things like this:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregated_prom#Notable_cases

4 of the 5 notable cases are from my state. We had integrated proms but nobody really interacted. It would have been a BIG problem if one of the black kids came to our prom with one of the white girls...and maybe even vice versa and this was 2007. The white athletes would acknowledge their teammates but outside of that you could pretty much draw a line between the white kids and everybody else.

Putting people together at school doesnt change anything if the kids still have to go home to segregated homes and you cant solve that unless you force people to open their homes.
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Post by danyjr on Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:45 pm

@Young Kaz wrote:This sounds like kum ba yah nonsense though.
This is a tried and tested method that has worked in many places around the world.

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Post by M99 on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:24 pm

@Young Kaz wrote:
@M99 wrote:This is elaborated on even better than The Wire in the book The New Jim Crow and the documentary 13. The system holding back black people is not becoming less and less true, instead it just became less blatant. Thank Nixon, Reagan and Bill Clinton for that.


Funny enough you skip Bush Sr who pretty much won an election on the back of scaring white folks against black prisoners(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Horton)


I'm aware of that. Man was Reagan's VP and doubled down on his predecessor's doings.

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Post by Young Kaz on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:53 am

@danyjr wrote:
@Young Kaz wrote:This sounds like kum ba yah nonsense though.
This is a tried and tested method that has worked in many places around the world.


Where has it worked? I would love to hear an example of a nation.
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Post by McLewis on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:50 am

@Myesyats wrote:How about some factual data?

“73% of black babies are born to unwed mothers. That percentage was 25 in 1963 and 11 in 1938. The absence of fathers is crucial. Even president Barack Obama recognized this when he said that “children who grow up without a father are 5 times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime, 9 times more likely to drop out of schools, and 20 times more likely to end up in prison."

Do we still accept any other reasoning beside white folk holding back black folk? I think there is a discussion to be had outside of everything being  deliberately manufactured to disproportionately affect black people. As much as that was true decades ago, it's becoming less and less true by the day.


Always like to see data, thanks for providing some. Now let's do some unpacking and put the cause behind those numbers into proper context.

After WWII, returning vets had access to a financial re-entry package called the GI Bill. It did quite a few very useful things: Offered low-interest mortgages to buy houses, low-interest loans to start businesses, 1 year of unemployment benefits to help them find work, reduced (and often no) tuition for college degrees and a host of other helpful tools designed to help returning vets get themselves (and thus their families) back on their feet after living hard during the war. Sounds great right? Well if you were a white veteran, it certainly was. Black vets were not so fortunate. How so? Two words: Jim Crow.

The entities responsible for approving and providing mortgages were white and often did not approve applications submitted by black vets, even if they clearly qualified for them under the GI Bill. In fact, fewer than 1% of available mortgages that qualified under the GI Bill were successfully taken out by black vets. Things weren't much better on the jobs front as the high-paying, lucrative jobs were given freely to white vets, but not black vets, who had to settle for low paying, menial jobs, causing their families to slip into poverty while white families prospered. On the education front, state schools, private schools and all other institutions with white admissions organizations actively discriminated against black vets, forcing them to overload HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) who were so overwhelmed, they had to turn away a significant number of qualified student applicants. This is important because a significant amount of black vets lived in the South during that time so these institutions were the ones turning them away. Without money, they were unable to move to other parts to the country to attend more tolerant institutions in the North and out West.

So what was the impact of the above on black families and communities? Well without a good education, black vets lacked the financial literacy of their white counterparts in addition to being unable to qualify for the same job positions. Even for jobs that didn't require a degree, rampant discrimination by white employers ensured black vets and their families slipped into poverty. The real hammer blow was in the real estate area however.  A real-estate practice that traces back to the New Deal that specifically was designed to deny black families the services and resources required to enable them purchase homes in white neighborhoods effectively confined black families to specific parts of cities where together in poverty, the property values of those areas fell, causing a drop in quality all around. Hence the advent of what we now call "the ghetto". With black vets unable to provide for their families in any meaningful way and now confined to an area of poverty, it is not surprising that many fell into depression, drug use, and of course.....crime. This didn't all happen at once of course, it occured throughout the rest of the 40s and 50s as well as the 60s until black men were once again called to fight in a war, this time in Korea and Vietnam. With Korea, the exact same thing happened as with WWII. After Vietnam and thus the post-Civil Rights and Anti-War movements, there was slightly less success for returning white vets, but still the same racial discrimination awaiting returning black vets. No job prospects, barriers to admission into educations institutions (primarily in the Deep South), and redlining practices keeping them segregated from safer, white neighborhoods. Poverty and crime increased as a result.

In the 70s, The Nixon Administration's crackdown on the growing scourge of drugs (leading to the creation of the DEA) resulted in millions of black men getting caught up in the system for minor drug and petty crime offenses, something that continued with Reagan and later most famously with Clinton (using a bill written by current candidate Joe Biden, deemed the "super predator" bill) that essentially created the mass incarceration prison industrial complex that we have today where police zealously arrest and throw black people into a justice system that profits from keeping them locked up with no way of getting out. Police departments, predominantly white since their inception, were central to enforcing the discrimination practices that kept all legal forms of segregation in place. Black men caught in the wrong (read: white) areas of town were lucky to be arrested and beaten. At worst, they faced simply being beaten and lynched by overzealous racist white police officers and/or civilian mobs, think the Tulsa Race Riot. Who was going to stop them? DAs? White. Judges? White. Attorneys General? White. Governors? White. Senators and Congressmen? White. Supreme Court? White. President? White. Influential leaders of commerce and industry? White. There were absolutely no allies in positions of power to protect blacks caught up in a blatently racist justice system. Want to measure progress then to now? Strides have absolutely been made. Not enough however.

Who did this impact the most? Black families naturally. How? The loss of father figures to depression at an inability to provide for their families as well as mass incarceration brought on by desperation from poverty and segregation caused by a system designed to discriminate against black fathers and husbands who fought numerous wars for their country, often against their will, leaving their wives to raise children on their own while also being the breadwinners. As such and because mothers cannot be everywhere at once, many children grew up without the guidance of their fathers and became enticed into the urban trappings of crime, gangs and drugs. They grew up in abject poverty permeated by an educational system that lacked the resources to prepare them for a prosperous life. Meanwhile their white counterparts, benefiting from now generational wealth thanks to their fathers and even grandfathers being able to fully utilize their GI Bill benefits, were raised in stable households, educated at good schools and colleges, often easily landing into high-paying lucrative jobs, allowing them to start families of their own and pass on this stability to future generations with relative ease. Progress has been made, no question about that, but if you think the Civil Rights movement, The Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the election of Barack Obama effectively spells the end of discrimination, you've been fed a fantasy. Redlining still exists and remains a significant barrier to blacks, as a demographic, being able to close the generational wealth gap with whites. Black entrepreneurs still face hurdles to securing funds to start businesses that white counterparts often do not. Corporate America (specifically Wall Street and Silicon Valley) remain distressingly white and male by and large though strides have been made, but not nearly enough. Conservatives love to point at affirmative action as proof that this problem has been solved, but closer examination easily proves it has not. I mean, the above outlines effectively 8 decades of affirmative action that benefited whites. It has always amused me that when the shoe is put on the black foot, all of a sudden there are charges of unfairness.

So whites didn't just "hold blacks back". They gave themselves a significant, nearly insurmountable advantage in all the areas that matter from a generational perspective and then prevented blacks from even trying to take steps to close that gap. It is hard to put into words just how destructive that has been for the black community as well as the black demographic in this country in general. Despite it all, many have made it to the prosperity that has come so easily for whites. Even that achievement is rooted in the discrimination of the Jim Crow era. Those individuals had to work twice and even thrice as hard as their white counterparts to just achieve parity with them, let alone surpass them. As such, they are effectively a bug in the system and not the feature that conservatives would have us believe them to be. Perhaps the most obvious example for me is Madam CJ Walker, who made millions in a time where it was unheard for black men, let alone women black or white, to make so much money from a business built from the ground up. She is an exception, not the rule as are so many others that came after her.

I understand why it's so enticing to think "but why didn't they just work harder?" "Why didn't find ways around these barriers?" It's just not that simple, as the above illustrates.

I'm having trouble stopping myself from talking about this more, but I think that's where I'll leave this for now. This a very expansive, extensive topic. There's quite a few things I've left out so believe it or not, the above are merely cliff notes. You have enough to digest for now, I'm sure.
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Post by Babun on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:15 am

@McLewis wrote:
Spoiler:

@Myesyats wrote:How about some factual data?

“73% of black babies are born to unwed mothers. That percentage was 25 in 1963 and 11 in 1938. The absence of fathers is crucial. Even president Barack Obama recognized this when he said that “children who grow up without a father are 5 times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime, 9 times more likely to drop out of schools, and 20 times more likely to end up in prison."

Do we still accept any other reasoning beside white folk holding back black folk? I think there is a discussion to be had outside of everything being  deliberately manufactured to disproportionately affect black people. As much as that was true decades ago, it's becoming less and less true by the day.


Always like to see data, thanks for providing some. Now let's do some unpacking and put the cause behind those numbers into proper context.

After WWII, returning vets had access to a financial re-entry package called the GI Bill. It did quite a few very useful things: Offered low-interest mortgages to buy houses, low-interest loans to start businesses, 1 year of unemployment benefits to help them find work, reduced (and often no) tuition for college degrees and a host of other helpful tools designed to help returning vets get themselves (and thus their families) back on their feet after living hard during the war. Sounds great right? Well if you were a white veteran, it certainly was. Black vets were not so fortunate. How so? Two words: Jim Crow.

The entities responsible for approving and providing mortgages were white and often did not approve applications submitted by black vets, even if they clearly qualified for them under the GI Bill. In fact, fewer than 1% of available mortgages that qualified under the GI Bill were successfully taken out by black vets. Things weren't much better on the jobs front as the high-paying, lucrative jobs were given freely to white vets, but not black vets, who had to settle for low paying, menial jobs, causing their families to slip into poverty while white families prospered. On the education front, state schools, private schools and all other institutions with white admissions organizations actively discriminated against black vets, forcing them to overload HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) who were so overwhelmed, they had to turn away a significant number of qualified student applicants. This is important because a significant amount of black vets lived in the South during that time so these institutions were the ones turning them away. Without money, they were unable to move to other parts to the country to attend more tolerant institutions in the North and out West.

So what was the impact of the above on black families and communities? Well without a good education, black vets lacked the financial literacy of their white counterparts in addition to being unable to qualify for the same job positions. Even for jobs that didn't require a degree, rampant discrimination by white employers ensured black vets and their families slipped into poverty. The real hammer blow was in the real estate area however.  A real-estate practice that traces back to the New Deal that specifically was designed to deny black families the services and resources required to enable them purchase homes in white neighborhoods effectively confined black families to specific parts of cities where together in poverty, the property values of those areas fell, causing a drop in quality all around. Hence the advent of what we now call "the ghetto". With black vets unable to provide for their families in any meaningful way and now confined to an area of poverty, it is not surprising that many fell into depression, drug use, and of course.....crime. This didn't all happen at once of course, it occured throughout the rest of the 40s and 50s as well as the 60s until black men were once again called to fight in a war, this time in Korea and Vietnam. With Korea, the exact same thing happened as with WWII. After Vietnam and thus the post-Civil Rights and Anti-War movements, there was slightly less success for returning white vets, but still the same racial discrimination awaiting returning black vets. No job prospects, barriers to admission into educations institutions (primarily in the Deep South), and redlining practices keeping them segregated from safer, white neighborhoods. Poverty and crime increased as a result.

In the 70s, The Nixon Administration's crackdown on the growing scourge of drugs (leading to the creation of the DEA) resulted in millions of black men getting caught up in the system for minor drug and petty crime offenses, something that continued with Reagan and later most famously with Clinton (using a bill written by current candidate Joe Biden, deemed the "super predator" bill) that essentially created the mass incarceration prison industrial complex that we have today where police zealously arrest and throw black people into a justice system that profits from keeping them locked up with no way of getting out. Police departments, predominantly white since their inception, were central to enforcing the discrimination practices that kept all legal forms of segregation in place. Black men caught in the wrong (read: white) areas of town were lucky to be arrested and beaten. At worst, they faced simply being beaten and lynched by overzealous racist white police officers and/or civilian mobs, think the Tulsa Race Riot. Who was going to stop them? DAs? White. Judges? White. Attorneys General? White. Governors? White. Senators and Congressmen? White. Supreme Court? White. President? White. Influential leaders of commerce and industry? White. There were absolutely no allies in positions of power to protect blacks caught up in a blatently racist justice system. Want to measure progress then to now? Strides have absolutely been made. Not enough however.

Who did this impact the most? Black families naturally. How? The loss of father figures to depression at an inability to provide for their families as well as mass incarceration brought on by desperation from poverty and segregation caused by a system designed to discriminate against black fathers and husbands who fought numerous wars for their country, often against their will, leaving their wives to raise children on their own while also being the breadwinners. As such and because mothers cannot be everywhere at once, many children grew up without the guidance of their fathers and became enticed into the urban trappings of crime, gangs and drugs. They grew up in abject poverty permeated by an educational system that lacked the resources to prepare them for a prosperous life. Meanwhile their white counterparts, benefiting from now generational wealth thanks to their fathers and even grandfathers being able to fully utilize their GI Bill benefits, were raised in stable households, educated at good schools and colleges, often easily landing into high-paying lucrative jobs, allowing them to start families of their own and pass on this stability to future generations with relative ease. Progress has been made, no question about that, but if you think the Civil Rights movement, The Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the election of Barack Obama effectively spells the end of discrimination, you've been fed a fantasy. Redlining still exists and remains a significant barrier to blacks, as a demographic, being able to close the generational wealth gap with whites. Black entrepreneurs still face hurdles to securing funds to start businesses that white counterparts often do not. Corporate America (specifically Wall Street and Silicon Valley) remain distressingly white and male by and large though strides have been made, but not nearly enough. Conservatives love to point at affirmative action as proof that this problem has been solved, but closer examination easily proves it has not. I mean, the above outlines effectively 8 decades of affirmative action that benefited whites. It has always amused me that when the shoe is put on the black foot, all of a sudden there are charges of unfairness.

So whites didn't just "hold blacks back". They gave themselves a significant, nearly insurmountable advantage in all the areas that matter from a generational perspective and then prevented blacks from even trying to take steps to close that gap. It is hard to put into words just how destructive that has been for the black community as well as the black demographic in this country in general. Despite it all, many have made it to the prosperity that has come so easily for whites. Even that achievement is rooted in the discrimination of the Jim Crow era. Those individuals had to work twice and even thrice as hard as their white counterparts to just achieve parity with them, let alone surpass them. As such, they are effectively a bug in the system and not the feature that conservatives would have us believe them to be. Perhaps the most obvious example for me is Madam CJ Walker, who made millions in a time where it was unheard for black men, let alone women black or white, to make so much money from a business built from the ground up. She is an exception, not the rule as are so many others that came after her.

I understand why it's so enticing to think "but why didn't they just work harder?" "Why didn't find ways around these barriers?" It's just not that simple, as the above illustrates.

I'm having trouble stopping myself from talking about this more, but I think that's where I'll leave this for now. This a very expansive, extensive topic. There's quite a few things I've left out so believe it or not, the above are merely cliff notes. You have enough to digest for now, I'm sure.

Thx McLewis for taking your time, you made me understand the course of racism towards afroamericans in the US indepth.

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Post by danyjr on Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:31 am

Very good post by @McLewis, thanks for taking your time on shedding light into important historic moments in the American anti-black discrimination.

The only issue I came across in your post is that having black people in positions of power is not necessarily the solution. You need decent people there, not necessarily black. Such positions shall be acquired based on merit, not race.

After all, a decent white man is better than a wicked black man.

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Post by Myesyats on Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:22 pm

I never denied any of what you said.@McLewis I respect you and I agree.

But the 73% stat is measured from around the 2010-20 period. Not from the post-WWII or Vietnam period.

"The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3% of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate."

It's from a couple years ago and this number is terrifying. I'm not saying "just work harder", never even implied that. But the 77 percent stat is concerning. We all know that teenage and nonmarital pregnancy very often doesnt end well, even from experience.


I think the better solution to this is to...Make education universal and free, since children of poor people that go to college have equal chance of ending up in any level of income. Realistically the student loan must be a great burden on a low income family. Surely this and the absence of universal healthcare must be the biggest hurdles right now.

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Post by McLewis on Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:55 pm

@danyjr wrote:Very good post by @McLewis, thanks for taking your time on shedding light into important historic moments in the American anti-black discrimination.

The only issue I came across in your post is that having black people in positions of power is not necessarily the solution. You need decent people there, not necessarily black. Such positions shall be acquired based on merit, not race.

After all, a decent white man is better than a wicked black man.

Black representation in positions of power is essential to closing the generational wealth gap in this country. I believe that firmly. It's important for black children to look at positions in business and government and see people who look like them in those positions. Am I advocating for all positions to have black folks in them? No. Am I advocating that qualified white candidates simply be pushed aside? No. What I'm advocating for is truly equal consideration. Legally, employers in this country cannot discriminate based on race, color, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, and gender. That has not stopped employers from finding ways to remain within those rules yet still discriminate.

This is why Barack Obama's election was so galvanizing for many of us. There were grandchildren of former slaves who lived long enough to see him elected. No one in any of our generations ever thought we'd see something like that. I never thought I'd see something like that and I was only 20 when he was elected. I grew up being told that I could be anything if I put my mind to it. To be perfectly honest, I always thought that was bullshit. I didn't have the understanding of why I thought that until much later in life, but Obama's election went some way towards dispelling at least some of that skepticism.

Bottom-line here: "Merit" is a fantasy. We Americans love to believe ourselves to be a meritocracy when we're nothing more than an oligarchy masquerading as a republic in denial over its racial and gender oppression. We have never been a meritocracy and I doubt we ever truly will be. There is too much greed, corruption and self-interest for it to be otherwise.

@Myesyats wrote:I never denied any of what you said.@McLewis I respect you and I agree.

But the 73% stat is measured from around the 2010-20 period. Not from the post-WWII or Vietnam period.

"The National Center for Health Statistics said that in 2015, 77.3% of non-immigrant black births were illegitimate."

It's from a couple years ago and this number is terrifying. I'm not saying "just work harder", never even implied that. But the 77 percent stat is concerning. We all know that teenage and nonmarital pregnancy very often doesnt end well, even from experience.


I think the better solution to this is to...Make education universal and free, since children of poor people  that go to college have equal chance of ending up in any level of income. Realistically the student loan must be a great burden on a low income family. Surely this and the absence of universal healthcare must be the biggest hurdles right now.

This wasn't an attack and I apologize if it came across as one. This is not the first time I've seen those numbers trotted out before and I wanted to give them the answer they deserved. I often see them trotted out by American conservatives to absolve white any role in the plight that black people find themselves in. That requires a response.

I'm well aware of when your stats were published. However, to understand what's happening now, you have to understand how we got here. Numbers don't lie, but they can be manipulated to fit a narrative. Numbers also often never tell the entire story. They are a supplement, nothing more. It took decades for the stat you posted to become what it is today. I simply wanted to provide the background on it.

I'll be frank with you. The black community will likely never go back to the traditional 2-parent nuclear family. I just don't see that ever happening. Everything I outlined in my previous post contributed to an almost permanent destruction of the black nuclear family unit. But what if we wanted to go back to that model (I ask it this way because many black families absolutely do not feel a want or need to go back to that model)? How do we get there? Well the laws that made the Clinton-Biden crime bill in the 90s need to be repealed and/or changed to reduce mass incarceration of black males on minor offenses. Judges who are more likely to hand down harsher sentences to black defendants than white ones need to be removed from the bench. Members of congress, both state and federal, who write bills codifying these racist crackdowns, must be voted out and replaced with representatives who support reducing mass incarceration. Redlining must be eliminated so that black families purchase homes at the same affordable low-interest rates as white families. Solve this particular problem and everything else falls into place. Black men can get good paying jobs (and housing in safe neighborhoods) to provide for their families, meaning they'll be more likely to stay together as families and prosper, passing down that generational wealth to future generations.

That, to me, is how you reduce the numbers in your stats. Will it ever happen? I hope it will someday, but I'm cynical enough to know I won't be alive to see it. I doubt any of us will.
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Post by danyjr on Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:15 am

@McLewis wrote:It's important for black children to look at positions in business and government and see people who look like them in those positions.
Actions like that contribute to the segregation because emphasis is still put on the colour of people. Why can't people just be people? Why do black kids have to see 'blackness' in high positions? Isn't it better for them to see merit in high places? Isn't it better for them to be colourblind?

Race is such a big thing in the US, I always get really overwhelmed by the way Americans talk about race. There are so many countries where this is such a non-issue. I don't blame Americans for their way of thinking. I just think they got it wrong in their methodology to fix their apparent race problem.

I believe you fix the segregation by mixing people from an early age, that means mixing neighbourhoods, schools, sports etc. so kids are grown up not associating and defining people by their colours. Allocating racial heroes for minorities for them to aspire to be is putting a lid on a more profound issue. What is the point of having puppet black people in high positions where the infrastructure isn't there for black kids to get there properly, save for some "affirmative action" which clearly has been discriminatory and also not productive.

Until we see people as humans, not by the colour of their skins, we'll be having these kind of problems. My 2 cents.

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Post by Young Kaz on Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:17 am

@danyjr wrote:
@McLewis wrote:It's important for black children to look at positions in business and government and see people who look like them in those positions.
Actions like that contribute to the segregation because emphasis is still put on the colour of people. Why can't people just be people? Why do black kids have to see 'blackness' in high positions? Isn't it better for them to see merit in high places? Isn't it better for them to be colourblind?

Race is such a big thing in the US, I always get really overwhelmed by the way Americans talk about race. There are so many countries where this is such a non-issue. I don't blame Americans for their way of thinking. I just think they got it wrong in their methodology to fix their apparent race problem.

I believe you fix the segregation by mixing people from an early age, that means mixing neighbourhoods, schools, sports etc. so kids are grown up not associating and defining people by their colours. Allocating racial heroes for minorities for them to aspire to be is putting a lid on a more profound issue. What is the point of having puppet black people in high positions where the infrastructure isn't there for black kids to get there properly, save for some "affirmative action" which clearly has been discriminatory and also not productive.

Until we see people as humans, not by the colour of their skins, we'll be having these kind of problems. My 2 cents.


Seeing people who look like you in high places inspires you to do greatness.

I also am waiting to hear about these mythical places where people mix and race isnt seen the same as it is in America. Ive thought long and hard and cant imagine what nations you are speaking of.
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Post by Myesyats on Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:01 am

"People in power" are usually voted in as long as we're talking about a democratic society. If there is a black candidate that gets the votes, aka Obama, then they can hold positions of power but merit is more important than skin color. By setting quotas for it, you are subconsciously segregating even more while it shouldnt matter at all.

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