Re: USA gun violence thread

[RedOranje]

People DO regularly kill other people, and themselves, with cars... and yet there is no outcry for banning motor vehicles. It's a flawed comparison on many levels, but even more than that it's actually simply factually inaccurate.

[rwo power]

Oh, and by the way - just for fun I looked up the data for traffic accidents, murder und gun-related deaths in Germany (where gun control is strictly enforced) and USA (data by WHO and or UNODOC). The data is persons per 100 000.

Germany
- traffic: 4.3 (total 3520 deaths) in 2013
- murder in general: 0.8 (total 662 deaths) in 2011
- murder with firearms: 0.2 in 2010
- deaths by firearms in general: 1.24 (includes murder, suicides and accidents) in 2010

USofA
- traffic: 11.6 (total 36166 deaths) in 2012
- murder in general: 4.7 (total 14827 deaths) in 2012
- murder with firearms: 3.55 in 2013
- deaths by firearm in general: 10.64 (includes murder, suicides and accidents) in 2013

I found it interesting that in Germany only 25% of the murders were committed by firearms, while in the US it was 75.5%.

Another thing I found very interesting was that in Germany (without Autobahn speed limit, mind you) we have only 37.1% of the traffic related deaths (per 100000) compared with the US.

Hm. You could say that statistically you are more likely to get murdered in the US than to die from a traffic accident in Germany. Moreover, in Germany you are almost 4 times more likely to be killed in a traffic accident than to die by firearms, while in the US the likelihood of dying by firearms is almost the same as being killed in a traffic accident. I guess one could say that US people are worse drivers, but better killers than Germans... ^^

[Tomwin Lannister]

banning guns will stop crazy criminals from shooting people. because a crazy criminal will not shoot people if guns are illegal.

But your average er... 'Crazy criminal' would struggle to get hold of a weapon if they weren't so ridiculously easy to obtain. Look at the UK, plenty of crime here and plenty of 'crazy criminals' but chances are they can't shoot you because they can't actually get a hold of a gun.

Obviously more organised/connected people can and will get hold of firearms especially now even if they were outlawed in America there's going to be ridiculous amounts in circulation. But chances are that the weird kid at the back of your classroom who hates life and gets rejected on the count than he's a strange creepy bastard won't find himself in possession of an automatic rifle in a country with strict gun control laws. No matter how badly he wants one.

don't take this the wrong way here buddy. but if people were going round killing others with a car would people say we should ban cars. guns are not the problem. people are the problem. guns are just one of many ways to kill people. but make no mistake. people will allways find a way to kill other people. alcohol. smoking. and prescription  drugs kill far more people per year than guns.

You don't have to tell me that, we all know it. But if guns are an issue, which they are, then you have 2 ways to decrease the problem.



You remove guns from the equation, or you remove people



'Guns don't kill people, people do.'

People WITH guns kill other people much more effectively and in much larger numbers.


Oh and without cars and medication most of our lives would become much more difficult and there would be a lot of ridiculous unnecessary problems. Without guns? No your average person can live the exact same life without them.


So yeah like I said, people ARE the problem but needless to say you can't remove people from the problem that would defeat the point


And i'll take my chances against some basement dwelling college loner who hates life coming at me with a butter knife or his own bare hands over the same person pointing a fully loaded AR at me from 30 feet away.


You can't fix the 'people' problems, because well i'd say mass mind control is off the table at this moment in time. So refusing to help the problem because there is no 100% cure is stupid. If a new law has minimum impact on peoples lives but drastically reduced shootings and death tolls then it's a no brainer.

[El Gunner]

What does Tom have against socially awkward young'uns?? Each time he comes up with a new phrase to label them

Kinda now think he might have been one himself back in high school

[McLewis]

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

It really doesn't matter. This guy was violent and intended to harm many people. If he didn't have guns to do this, he would've found another way. It's that simple. Killers throughout history have found ways to carry out their will long before guns and they'll be doing it long after them too.

What should be the focus here is how this guy was able to get his guns so easily. I personally would like to see the States tackle this issue from their level. Obama can lament this to the cows come home, as well he should, but the reality is that he is a powerless to stop this from happening. Congress, even with a Democratic supermajority, wouldn't touch this issue. There is little to no hope for it down that avenue. This is why the States themselves must take the lead. Even that will only go so far as the South and the Midwest are high unlikely to do much.

Stricter laws surrounding guns being sold outside of stores and online would be a start.

[futbol]

If US society wants guns it also has to live with the side effects which it seems willing to do. Don't know what more to say.

People are still arguing that banning guns wouldn't prevent people from finding other ways to kill people, which is completely ignoring the heat of the moment component. If a person sees someone outside his house vandalizing his car he might flip out and grab his gun and shoot someone in the face while in a country without guns it might at most escalate into a fist fight and broken noses. Not that long ago I read about an exchange student in the US who entered the wrong property in the dark and got immediately shot whereas in a gun prohibited country people would simply call the police.

Most of the times killing a bunch of people is not the main target for these people, just a side effect because it's so easily doable. A social outsider, like that guy apparantely was, usually wants to end his own life primarily. But if he can buy machine guns like a pair of socks why not take some people he hates with him if he's going to die anyway? Whereas in a country where guns are prohibited the same guy would most likely just kill himself.

[Adit]

How can't these people see the difference?

A guy who want to kill 10 people would rather take a gun every single time than a knife. You can actually fight off a man with a knife with your bare hands.... You cant even fight off a 5 year old with a gun even if your life depends on it.

[Adit]

People actually will try to rescue you from a person with a knife while all I see is everyone running for their life when they hear a gun shot.

[rwo power]

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

Maybe because arson and bombs are illegal in the first place? And by the way, in Germany it is even illegal to carry around big knives in public, which is why Crocodile Dundee would have gotten into trouble here. ^^

Oh, any by the way - the best way to go about banning guns would be taking a lot of money in their hands and start advertising campaigns how uncool it is to carry around guns, prohibiting guns for minors and prohibiting advertising for guns etc. That worked not too badly with tobacco already. Problem is that the gun lobby is probably even more powerful than the tobacco lobby in the US.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

It really doesn't matter. This guy was violent and intended to harm many people. If he didn't have guns to do this, he would've found another way. It's that simple. Killers throughout history have found ways to carry out their will long before guns and they'll be doing it long after them too.

It's not that simple. Think about the guy that burst into a classroom in china with only a knife. He stabbed something like 19 people, but none of them died. Now imagine if he lived in the US...

[Freeza]

You can't fix the 'people' problems, because well i'd say mass mind control is off the table at this moment in time. So refusing to help the problem because there is no 100% cure is stupid. If a new law has minimum impact on peoples lives but drastically reduced shootings and death tolls then it's a no brainer.

Tom acting like mass mind control isn't already something the US government is doing through vaccines

[Tomwin Lannister]

What does Tom have against socially awkward young'uns?? Each time he comes up with a new phrase to label them

Kinda now think he might have been one himself back in high school

Have you not seen the social media profiles and conversations a lot of the school shooters have?

Loads of them fit the same profile of being described as very awkward and strange. I remember reading some articles a year or so back that a very large percentage of the shooters at that point were thought to have been bullied and instead of them working on themselves or reporting it, they decide that life's crap, grab a gun from their household and *bleep* slaughter a bunch of other school kids. Absolute messes.

[RedOranje]

You can't fix the 'people' problems, because well i'd say mass mind control is off the table at this moment in time. So refusing to help the problem because there is no 100% cure is stupid. If a new law has minimum impact on peoples lives but drastically reduced shootings and death tolls then it's a no brainer.

Tom acting like mass mind control isn't already something the US government is doing through vaccines

Best not to joke about that sort of thing... someone will inevitably take you seriously and that's how things like Trump 2016 get started.

[McLewis]

I think I will continue playing devil's advocate here.

How can't these people see the difference?

A guy who want to kill 10 people would rather take a gun every single time than a knife. You can actually fight off a man with a knife with your bare hands.... You cant even fight off a 5 year old with a gun even if your life depends on it.

A veteran charged this guy and tackled him, distracting him and saving lives. He was shot 7 times for his troubles, but he survived the attack. So yes, one actually can fight off a gun attacker. Are the chances of survival lower than going after a knifer? Probably, but this doesn't make it as impossible as you think it to be. I would agree that it's improbable at least. We've seen plenty of potential mass shooting averted in this country due to that, mostly from law enforcement.

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

Maybe because arson and bombs are illegal in the first place? And by the way, in Germany it is even illegal to carry around big knives in public, which is why Crocodile Dundee would have gotten into trouble here. ^^

Oh, any by the way - the best way to go about banning guns would be taking a lot of money in their hands and start advertising campaigns how uncool it is to carry around guns, prohibiting guns for minors and prohibiting advertising for guns etc. That worked not too badly with tobacco already. Problem is that the gun lobby is probably even more powerful than the tobacco lobby in the US.

Here's my point though. Mere illegality of bombs didn't stop Tim McVeigh from doing what he did 20 years just as it didn't stop those killers walking onto campuses like Virginia Tech,  Sandy Hook or the movie theater in Aurora (all gun-free zones, mind you) and doing what they did. It's against US federal law to carry a weapon into a gun free zone and yet these guys didn't care and did it anyway. The irony with the tragedy in Oregon is that that campus actually wasn't a gun free zone. This is what I mean. Laws won't solve this problem. It's not a deterrent, especially since these guys usually take their own lives after the deed is done. They simply don't care whether they live or die.

The highlighted text further demonstrates why we'll never fully solve this problem. Powerful lobbies like the NRA has wrapped the 2nd amendment around itself so tightly, they're almost synonymous with each other.

Solving this problem will take all of the US population and a non-partisan effort that aims to bring down the gun lobby. Far easier said than done.

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

It really doesn't matter. This guy was violent and intended to harm many people. If he didn't have guns to do this, he would've found another way. It's that simple. Killers throughout history have found ways to carry out their will long before guns and they'll be doing it long after them too.

It's not that simple. Think about the guy that burst into a classroom in china with only a knife. He stabbed something like 19 people, but none of them died. Now imagine if he lived in the US...

China don't allow their private citizens to own guns so knife attacks are obviously prevalent, just as it is in the UK. They may have taken his knife away, but please believe that if he had been here in the US and tried this, it wouldn't have been with a knife, but a gun.  His aim was not merely to hurt those 19 people, but to kill them. He succeeded in one, but failed at the other.

For me, its still very simple. People who want to hurt other people will do whatever it takes to inflict the most pain and suffering, ultimately ending in death. Some have done it with knives, others with fire, and others obviously with guns and bombs. The way it's done isn't particularly as relevant relative to the impact it has on its victims. The reasoning is what matters the most to me because it's the one aspect of these events that can be acted upon, which could lead to prevention. There simply hasn't been enough support where it's needed most.

[El Gunner]

What does Tom have against socially awkward young'uns?? Each time he comes up with a new phrase to label them

Kinda now think he might have been one himself back in high school

Have you not seen the social media profiles and conversations a lot of the school shooters have?

Loads of them fit the same profile of being described as very awkward and strange. I remember reading some articles a year or so back that a very large percentage of the shooters at that point were thought to have been bullied and instead of them working on themselves or reporting it, they decide that life's crap, grab a gun from their household and *bleep* slaughter a bunch of other school kids. Absolute messes.

As a future psychologist (hopefully) I must say that you should take into consideration the lives and feelings of these socially challenged young'uns as well. Of course, I don't condone their behaviour if they go out and kill people, it's still wrong and a criminal offense. But they're still only people.

Plus it's not like the majority of socially awkward teens go out and decide to kill people. I don't have stats for this, but I'm quite sure you get two of them in every single street in this world. Some of them get over their challenges, some just stay the same and accept their lives, and it is my job in the future (hopefully) to help the ones that are/could become a menace to society.

[Unique]

Why is the focus on cars and not knives, arson, bombs etc?

It really doesn't matter. This guy was violent and intended to harm many people. If he didn't have guns to do this, he would've found another way. It's that simple. Killers throughout history have found ways to carry out their will long before guns and they'll be doing it long after them too.

What should be the focus here is how this guy was able to get his guns so easily. I personally would like to see the States tackle this issue from their level. Obama can lament this to the cows come home, as well he should, but the reality is that he is a powerless to stop this from happening. Congress, even with a Democratic supermajority, wouldn't touch this issue. There is little to no hope for it down that avenue. This is why the States themselves must take the lead. Even that will only go so far as the South and the Midwest are high unlikely to do much.

Stricter laws surrounding guns being sold outside of stores and online would be a start.

talk dirty to me and tell me what you have in your gun case

[rwo power]

Not a campus shooting, but another case why the unrestricted access to weapons leads to unnecessary tragedy:

"An 11-year-old eastern Tennessee boy was in custody for murder on Monday for shooting and killing an eight-year-old neighbor girl with a shotgun because she would not show him her puppies, authorities said."

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/05/tennessee-boy-kills-girl-puppies-sheriff


Oh, and while I read that article, I just noticed a link to this here:

"994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like

The Oregon school shooting is evidence that the US response to gun violence ‘has become routine’, Barack Obama says. The data compiled by the crowd-sourced site Mass Shooting Tracker reveals an even more shocking human toll: there is a mass shooting – defined as four or more people shot in one incident – nearly every day"

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence


And another one with a very colourful comparison:

"But a comparison with the response to last year’s Ebola virus crisis might be even more instructive. The US experienced 11 cases of Ebola, including two deaths. In West Africa, which bore the brunt of the outbreak, official figures suggest about 11,000 people died.

In response to the epidemic, the US pulled out all the stops. It mobilized thousands of soldiers to West Africa, set up emergency centers in hospitals across the US, produced revised safety guidelines from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, formed rapid response teams to deal with new cases of possible infection, introduced a massive screening program at airports, closed some schools and enforced quarantining of individuals.

Nobody would question the efforts made to contain the threat of such a contagious and deadly disease. Yet when comparatively mild reforms have been suggested to combat the epidemic of gun deaths that claims three times the West African Ebola death toll every year in the US, barricades are immediately erected."

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/03/thoughts-and-prayers-are-not-enough-why-the-us-has-so-many-mass-shootings

[McAgger]

2 more shootings today at universities.

One at NAU in Arizona about 2 hours away from me and another in Texas.

2nd amendment

[Adit]

Laws are to be changed. America itself was an example to entire world with their gay marriage right law. They changed it because the current world called for it... Same applies for that gun law which is clearly outdated. All other countries have already proven that people don't need guns to stop governments from becoming dictatorship.

[Myesyats]

This is getting really messy. I want to move to Texas when I'm completely well off and ready so I hope things will change for the better by then.

[Adit]

Only fundamental law is right to live. Everything else should be changed according to the era.

[rwo power]

Only fundamental law is right to live.

Not in the US. There's something called "death penalty", you know. ^^

[BarrileteCosmico]

This is getting really messy. I want to move to Texas when I'm completely well off and ready so I hope things will change for the better by then.

Texas will never give up its guns

[Kaladin]

Sad news, it just seems like we will keep mourning and mourning and mourning..

[Firenze]

don't feel like making a thread every time this happens but there's currently a mass shooting unfolding at a disabled social services building in san bernadino

20+ injured, at least 12 killed, 3 shooters wearing tactical gear that have left and apparently haven't been apprehended

also talk about them planting a bomb

[Art Morte]

That's a bit of a weird target, a disabled social services unit. And if it's more than one gunman, we'll see what was their common motivation.

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