Old Men's Thread: The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread

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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:18 am

Mature discussions only (either mature attitude on this thread or age). Ok kids... show us you can think without being hormonal lol.

First topic: Who is the bigger legend in Madrid so far, R9 or CR7?

R9 started a personal resurgence after the early injury problems of his career and was brilliant in the early years... but weight issues and additional injuries caught up with him later in his career. That said, he owned everyone as a CF despite Zidane being the leader of the team. He scored so many crucial goals and won several important trophies during his tenure. Who can every forget his hat trick at Old Trafford. He ended up with 83 goals in 127 appearances for Madrid.

CR7 is Mr Individual stat man with Madrid so far. Just in terms of goals, in 89 appearances... he has 86 goals. That's astounding. The problem though is that Madrid as a team has only won a measly CDR title in his two years. I'll grant you that we're facing the best Barca team ever and one of the best sides in the history of football. So trophies are going to be tough to come by. But that's the issue with CR7's legacy to date: You need to win trophies to be considered a legend at Madrid. Individual accolades won't do.

So imo, R9 is easily the bigger star at Madrid just because of the trophies Madrid won and the important goals he scored. CR7 is not even a legend yet imo... but he still has a few years.

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Post by LeSwagg James Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:37 pm

Right now I would say R9.. But give CR7 2 more years and I think he will pass him, as much as I hate to say it.. He's scoring like its a game right now (although I would say R9 scored more difficult goals so far).. Injuries and weight problems caught up to the great one..
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Post by LeSwagg James Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:40 pm

By the way I always wondered how highly the people of Madrid think of R9's time there.. Imo they don't think of him very highly? Or am I wrong?

That's just the vibe I get, I don't know why.. I feel they think of Zidane as the player of those year



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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:50 pm

To be honest, I do think Ronaldo will bypass R9. We do have Mourinho in our team and I can't imagine him not winning, and Ronaldos goal gave us the Copa trophy (although he shoulda have scored 4 if he didnt screw up the chances all the time)
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Post by pepe_el loco Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:13 pm

i may be biased...but i prefer the real ronaldo...R9. coming back from potentially career ending injury to perform at the top and contribute positively even though others called him fat kid (even me Embarassed ) cr7 could get there...jus give him a couple more years
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:13 pm

I know it's hard for me to be completely unbiased here because i rate players based on the success of a team. This isn't tennis where you are a completely individualistic. It's even less individualistic as basketball because you have 11 players on the field as opposed to 5.

CR7 needs to take less shots crazy shots. Hey... if he can get that many good looks, then he should have 65 goals. That's fine and he should be at around 20% efficiency. But he takes bad ones, which is why he's down below 15%. That's my biggest beef.

CR7's method doesn't work against the elite teams because they will give you the crap shots as long as they squeeze away the good ones. The goalkeepers involved are usually top shelf and they will not let crazy shots go in. That's the reason he flops against Barca, aside from not being to dribble through people against great defenders.

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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:22 pm

Sportczy - I'm afraid I'm about to show how young you are!!!

To me it's only a matter of another year before CR7 has done more than R9, but I believe Hugo Sanchez was more impactful than either of them. And if I go back to my early days it's Di Stefano.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:33 pm

I know... i was a huge Hugo Sanchez fan although i only got to see him very little and usually when friend sent me VHS tapes of his games lol. It was a shame that the Mexican NT was so meh that he could never shine on the international level.

In those days, you only got international recognition really with NT success and European success. Those were the only televised games for everyone to see.

Di Stefano.. i never saw him.

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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:53 pm

sportsczy wrote:I know... i was a huge Hugo Sanchez fan although i only got to see him very little and usually when friend sent me VHS tapes of his games lol. It was a shame that the Mexican NT was so meh that he could never shine on the international level.

In those days, you only got international recognition really with NT success and European success. Those were the only televised games for everyone to see.

Di Stefano.. i never saw him.

Di Stefano was like Messi and C. Ronaldo are today. Clearly the best in the game and are a threat every time they touch the ball. Can win a game by themselves. I find this rather difficult, being Spanish, that these four players we are talking about are arguably the most exciting players we ever had and yet all four are foreigners. Di Stefano has been in Spain for so many years we forget he was Argentino.
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Post by Lord Hades Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:12 pm

what are the 'several trophies we won with r9 as our lead striker.. i know we won one la liga but what else.. and how prominenent a role did he play in those..
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:26 pm

diptiman wrote:what are the 'several trophies we won with r9 as our lead striker.. i know we won one la liga but what else.. and how prominenent a role did he play in those..

We only won one liga with him here, but we also got an intercontinential and spanish super cup. But in 2003/2004 we were on the way to a treble with Ronaldo our prime attack (he got a hat trick against man U in Cl quarter final), but then he got injured and we lost both copa and CL. I rank all of the four players very highly not because of club achievements but for the excitment these 4 provided every time they touched the ball. 3 of the four were players of the year multiple times and Sanchez was just a goal scoring machine (he won golden boot, was picinchi winner 5 times, his record of most goals (that CR7 beat this year) all the goals were scored on one touch - unbelievable.
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Post by Babun Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:48 pm

While you may be right about the contribution part to Real Madrid as a club ( Hugo Sanchez wins hands down), the pure talent part is another story. CR7 is nowhere near R9 Very Happy
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Even with outrageous body limitations as of now, he has better feel, touch and dribbling than CR7 Very Happy


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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:53 pm

Hugo Sanchez the master of one touch goals

The titles we won under Hugo Sanchez leading the line puts him well in front of both Ronaldo's

Unfortunately for us, as good as R9 was he did not really help us win too much.

Hugo Sanchez helped us win a boat load of trophies.

R7 so far has only helped us win one.

So until R7 hauls the trophies that Hugo has for us then he will forever be behind him no matter the goals he scores.

For those that do not know, Hugo's trophy haul at Real Madrid:

5 La Liga (Real Madrid, seasons 1985-86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89 and 1989–90).
1 Copas del Rey (Real Madrid 1989).
3 Supercopas de España (Real Madrid 1988, 1989 and 1990).

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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:54 pm

sportsczy wrote:I know it's hard for me to be completely unbiased here because i rate players based on the success of a team. This isn't tennis where you are a completely individualistic. It's even less individualistic as basketball because you have 11 players on the field as opposed to 5.

CR7 needs to take less shots crazy shots. Hey... if he can get that many good looks, then he should have 65 goals. That's fine and he should be at around 20% efficiency. But he takes bad ones, which is why he's down below 15%. That's my biggest beef.

CR7's method doesn't work against the elite teams because they will give you the crap shots as long as they squeeze away the good ones. The goalkeepers involved are usually top shelf and they will not let crazy shots go in. That's the reason he flops against Barca, aside from not being to dribble through people against great defenders.

I agree with everything except dribbling, he is a good dribbler actually, and he did dribble Barcas defense a few times.

Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread 9r99f9pvyp9ffaujhlbs
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Cg81mp3btjtn130r1hjp
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Biptj04qrjdntbarz6h9

And all of these are from the same game.
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Post by Babun Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:55 pm

omarish wrote:

Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread 9r99f9pvyp9ffaujhlbs
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Cg81mp3btjtn130r1hjp
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Biptj04qrjdntbarz6h9

And all of these are from the same game.
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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:58 pm

babun1024 wrote:
omarish wrote:

Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread 9r99f9pvyp9ffaujhlbs
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Cg81mp3btjtn130r1hjp
Old Men's Thread:  The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread Biptj04qrjdntbarz6h9

And all of these are from the same game.

Not camparing him with R9, just saying he can get past great defenders.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:04 pm

Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo

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Post by Babun Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:10 pm

Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo
Who said it? I didn't. I just meant that R9 had better ball control, dribbling and natural feel for the ball. Better doesn't mean, there isn't anything to compare with Very Happy


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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:14 pm

babun1024 wrote:
Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo
Who said it? I didn't. I just meant that R9 had better ball control, dribbling and natural feel for the ball. Metter doesn't mean, there isn't anything to compare with Very Happy

We're (atleast I am) talking about sportsczy saying that Ronaldo can't get past great defenders, when he did it against Spain and Barca, and they have (or rather had now without Puyol) the best defence at the moment.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:18 pm

Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo

In the CDR, CR7 actually, for once, agreed to play CF. But he is not a great finisher and it showed. He's more of a volume guy in terms of shots. Of course, some are going to go in.

What i don't like about his game against elite teams is that he tries to put on a one man show much more than usual. I can't tell you how many times he (and Di Maria for that matter) just ignored the open man. In fact, in the classico where Higuain played, i counted 3 times where Higuain could've gone direct against the goaltender but the pass wasn't made. Even the disallowed goal of Higuain was an over dribble of CR7.

CR7 obviously has the ability to get past one or two defenders. But there's too much flash in his game against the elite. He often doesn't make the best play... but goes for his play.

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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:20 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo

In the CDR, CR7 actually, for once, agreed to play CF. But he is not a great finisher and it showed. He's more of a volume guy in terms of shots. Of course, some are going to go in.

What i don't like about his game against elite teams is that he tries to put on a one man show much more than usual. I can't tell you how many times he (and Di Maria for that matter) just ignored the open man. In fact, in the classico where Higuain played, i counted 3 times where Higuain could've gone direct against the goaltender but the pass wasn't made. Even the disallowed goal of Higuain was an over dribble of CR7.

CR7 obviously has the ability to get past one or two defenders. But there's too much flash in his game against the elite. He often doesn't make the best play... but goes for his play.

Honestly these are things you can fix, and I agree, Ronaldo at CF is just wrong. He is better at being the one who plays the ball forward, his finishing is too bad honestly. He needs to work on that too.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:24 pm

omarish wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo
Who said it? I didn't. I just meant that R9 had better ball control, dribbling and natural feel for the ball. Metter doesn't mean, there isn't anything to compare with Very Happy

We're (atleast I am) talking about sportsczy saying that Ronaldo can't get past great defenders, when he did it against Spain and Barca, and they have (or rather had now without Puyol) the best defence at the moment.

That's not what i said. I said that he over-dribbles which is what the elite defenders want you to do. You'll get past one... but if you're unwilling to make the right play, which may be a pass, you'll end up dribbling to a spot that is ok for the defense. As a former defender, you push players into areas. You can't defend the best guys one-on-one, so you area defend with help from teammates.

He wants to be the star so badly against the top teams that he really should just play CF. In that role, your job is to be selfish and go for goal. When he's playing on the wing and is playing high, he needs to be mindful of making the right play with his teammates.

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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:39 pm

sportsczy wrote:
omarish wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
Crimson wrote:Did you see Ronaldo against Spain? He destroyed one of the best defences in the world over and over again.

Against Barcelona in the CdR final he did the same thing again and again, despite his wasted chances he still beat a world class defence a number of times.

To say Ronaldo can't get past great defenders is abit ignorant imo
Who said it? I didn't. I just meant that R9 had better ball control, dribbling and natural feel for the ball. Metter doesn't mean, there isn't anything to compare with Very Happy

We're (atleast I am) talking about sportsczy saying that Ronaldo can't get past great defenders, when he did it against Spain and Barca, and they have (or rather had now without Puyol) the best defence at the moment.

That's not what i said. I said that he over-dribbles which is what the elite defenders want you to do. You'll get past one... but if you're unwilling to make the right play, which may be a pass, you'll end up dribbling to a spot that is ok for the defense. As a former defender, you push players into areas. You can't defend the best guys one-on-one, so you area defend with help from teammates.

He wants to be the star so badly against the top teams that he really should just play CF. In that role, your job is to be selfish and go for goal. When he's playing on the wing and is playing high, he needs to be mindful of making the right play with his teammates.

If we're gonna use him that way it's gonna go bad becouse really Ronaldo sucks at CF. His finishing is bad as hell. Just see how it went in Copa, if we had a different CF he would have scored atleast half of the chances Ronaldo got. He should stay at the wing, he isn't too bad there. He isn't the best but not the worst.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:44 pm

Crimson wrote:Hugo Sanchez the master of one touch goals

The titles we won under Hugo Sanchez leading the line puts him well in front of both Ronaldo's

Unfortunately for us, as good as R9 was he did not really help us win too much.

Hugo Sanchez helped us win a boat load of trophies.

R7 so far has only helped us win one.

So until R7 hauls the trophies that Hugo has for us then he will forever be behind him no matter the goals he scores.

For those that do not know, Hugo's trophy haul at Real Madrid:

5 La Liga (Real Madrid, seasons 1985-86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89 and 1989–90).
1 Copas del Rey (Real Madrid 1989).
3 Supercopas de España (Real Madrid 1988, 1989 and 1990).

Now look up Di Stefano!!!!!
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:54 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Crimson wrote:Hugo Sanchez the master of one touch goals

The titles we won under Hugo Sanchez leading the line puts him well in front of both Ronaldo's

Unfortunately for us, as good as R9 was he did not really help us win too much.

Hugo Sanchez helped us win a boat load of trophies.

R7 so far has only helped us win one.

So until R7 hauls the trophies that Hugo has for us then he will forever be behind him no matter the goals he scores.

For those that do not know, Hugo's trophy haul at Real Madrid:

5 La Liga (Real Madrid, seasons 1985-86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89 and 1989–90).
1 Copas del Rey (Real Madrid 1989).
3 Supercopas de España (Real Madrid 1988, 1989 and 1990).

Now look up Di Stefano!!!!!

I know all about Di Stefano Razz

But I was more talking about the modern game

And it's hard to say what position Di Stefano played, all the games I have watched of his, he played everywhere, you could almost see him in every position throughout a match. He was a striker, an attacking midfielder and a defensive midfielder in one.

Very much unlike Hugo, R9 or R7 lol

Puskas even though he played as a inside-left is more comparable but even that would be harsh.

Trying to compare players in the modern game to anyone in that team is impossible

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