That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy

serie A fans still have the audacity to be condescending and judgemental  of other leagues after their best teams embarassing display in a relatively easy group ?

let's compare serie A and bundesliga results over the past 3 seasons:
2011 : 1 german team in the semifinals  , 0 italian team past the quarterfinals .
2012 : 1 german team in the final , o italian team past the quarterfinals.
2013 :  2 german teams in the final , 0 italian team past the quarterfinals.

FilthyLuca wrote:Juve started off slow (for whatever reason, thats their fault), Llorente wasn't match fit yet after a year out, hence they still had the problem of non existent goal scorers.
 
Juves group had 3 quarter finalists from the previous year, one of which a semifinalist.  its not like they had Ajax (who sold their best players over the summer) and Celtic.  
 
And for the record, I think any unbiased adult here would concede, that considering their form since October, including the two games against probably the best or second best team in Europe, they would've easily qualified had Gala closed their retractable stadium, instead of purposely letting the field turn to shit so the can make it, as Mancini called it, a "Lottery".

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is BS.

Excuses excuses......  

Now, I wonder which makes more sense:

Look at a couple of bad games played by Leverkusen and conclude that Germany have too many CL places.

or

Look at a long-term ranking and the big picture, that is provided by the UEFA coefficient system.


A tough one, I think I need to sleep on this

FilthyLuca wrote:

rwo power wrote:BTW, if Napoli were so good, why weren't they able to get out of their CL group? And don't say "But they had Arsenal and Dortmund in it" - by your definition they should have been above Dortmund, shouldn't they?

The same goes for Juve, who were only able to win 1 single match in a group containing Real Madrid, Galatasaray Istanbul and FC Kopenhagen.

 
Juve started off slow (for whatever reason, thats their fault), Llorente wasn't match fit yet after a year out, hence they still had the problem of non existent goal scorers.
 
Juves group had 3 quarter finalists from the previous year, one of which a semifinalist.  its not like they had Ajax (who sold their best players over the summer) and Celtic.  
 
And for the record, I think any unbiased adult here would concede, that considering their form since October, including the two games against probably the best or second best team in Europe, they would've easily qualified had Gala closed their retractable stadium, instead of purposely letting the field turn to shit so the can make it, as Mancini called it, a "Lottery".

Juve won one game out of six. No excuses, they were poor.

I mean no disrespect to the thread maker, but how is this even a discussion? Germany no doubt deserves their 4 UCL spot. However, an argument could be made that italy does in fact deserve a 4th spot because let's be honest teams such kobenhavn, and again I mean no disrespect, shouldn't be in the group stage when they're are other teams that are possibly more deserving. But this is more a change in the entire system rather than taking away spots from another league. Imo Spain, england, italy and France should all have 4 spots

Also, to say Napoli were not deserving of reaching the round of 16 is absolutely ludicrous. They lost out because of goal differential and not because they played poorly

Serie A should earn back its spot through titles and performing well in the CL. Napoli were unlucky to get the group of death (they did defeat both Dortmund and Arsneal...)  but now they should take the EL seriously so as to earn coefficient points and not get the group of death again. The champion of Italy not getting through Galatasaray though.... absolutely inexcusable. Fact is Italian teams have not been strong in the CL since Mou's Inter, whereas German teams have only become stronger.

The only change I want to see is that defeating a better team than you according to UEFA coefficients should yield a higher amount of points. If both Schalke and Bayern make it to the quarter finals, and they both get defeated, defeating Bayern should give the other team more points than defeating Schalke.

izzy wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:Juve started off slow (for whatever reason, thats their fault), Llorente wasn't match fit yet after a year out, hence they still had the problem of non existent goal scorers.
 
Juves group had 3 quarter finalists from the previous year, one of which a semifinalist.  its not like they had Ajax (who sold their best players over the summer) and Celtic.  
 
And for the record, I think any unbiased adult here would concede, that considering their form since October, including the two games against probably the best or second best team in Europe, they would've easily qualified had Gala closed their retractable stadium, instead of purposely letting the field turn to shit so the can make it, as Mancini called it, a "Lottery".

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is BS.

Excuses excuses......  

no little buddy, they are called facts... ive stated over and again that they put themselves in this situation by being frugal and got what they deserved. but things are more complicated than "they didn't get out of the group stage, so they aren't good".

sportsczy wrote:There's no controversy.  Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3.  In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.

4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

FilthyLuca wrote:no little buddy, they are called facts... ive stated over and again that they put themselves in this situation by being frugal and got what they deserved.  but things are more complicated than "they didn't get out of the group stage, so they aren't good".

Facts?   

You're contradicting yourself, on one hand you are saying that circumstances stopped Juve from qualifying and then you're saying it was their own fault?

They won 1 game out of 6. 1.
No excuse, they were not good enough to qualify from the group.

S wrote:

sportsczy wrote:There's no controversy.  Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3.  In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.

4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

I think he means 4th spot in the co-efficients table............

Art Morte wrote:Now, I wonder which makes more sense:

Look at a couple of bad games played by Leverkusen and conclude that Germany have too many CL places.

or

Look at a long-term ranking and the big picture, that is provided by the UEFA coefficient system.


A tough one, I think I need to sleep on this

lol. exactly.

S wrote:4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

UEFA coefficients get calculated on a 5 year basis. If monaco and PSG consistently make semis during the next 5 years and their teams don't flop in the EL it's not inconceivable that they could do that.

S wrote:

sportsczy wrote:There's no controversy.  Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3.  In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.

4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

Germany is 3rd place, my friend, he is talking about 4th, as in, your place   

BarrileteCosmico wrote:UEFA coefficients get calculated on a 5 year basis. If monaco and PSG consistently make semis during the next 5 years and their teams don't flop in the EL it's not inconceivable that they could do that.

But its not like Germany's co-efficient is getting weaker every year is it ? Also considering Ligue 1 teams have been a joke in the EL while German teams continue to perform there as well.Bundesliga are in touching distance with the PL.

Its an uphill task and i find it very unlikely to see Ligue 1 grabbing that 4th spot ahead of BL.

the 4th CL spot is the only thing where Germany prevailed on Italy in football    

Anyway I don't forget Italy lost the 4th Champions League  spot simply for great difference in Europa League , infact before of this overtaking AC Milan and Inter  had won the Champions League recently while we had we had to go back to 2001 to see a German club winning in Champions League with Bayern  Munchen leaded by Hitzfield.

TBH It is  a bit questionable if it is right that  a CL spot is decided because of   results of Another cup but anyway this is rule and it must be accepted, even if Serie A can be preferred as league to Bundesliga ( as I think but personal opinion. )

Personally I am not worried about this contention , I see it as a far thing, Serie A has deeper problems, , the system Serie A doesn't grows,we haven't magnates or the German organization ( this  must be recognized, of course, and probably they deserve the 4rd place expecially for this more than results ) , it rests on his laures relying on tradition of its clubs ( we can still have appeal thanks to club supported everywhere as Inter, Milan , Juventus   etc but it s a fragile base)and so it does not feel the need to improve   and at this rate we risk to lose even the 4th place.

izzy wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:no little buddy, they are called facts... ive stated over and again that they put themselves in this situation by being frugal and got what they deserved.  but things are more complicated than "they didn't get out of the group stage, so they aren't good".

Facts?   

You're contradicting yourself, on one hand you are saying that circumstances stopped Juve from qualifying and then you're saying it was their own fault?

They won 1 game out of 6. 1.
No excuse, they were not good enough to qualify from the group.

 
contradicting myself how? they put themselves in a hole early on, and when it came to the last game, they made it possible for Gala to turn it into a crap shoot as opposed to a top level game, because of the conditions of the "pitch".  does that mean Milan, who hadn't won a league game in 2 months, and had a much easier group than Juve are better because they did qualify?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

S wrote:4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

UEFA coefficients get calculated on a 5 year basis. If monaco and PSG consistently make semis during the next 5 years and their teams don't flop in the EL it's not inconceivable that they could do that.

But sportsczy is claiming it'll happen in the next 3 years. He seems to forget how appalling Bordeaux were in the EL and how Saint Etienne and Nice failed to even get into the group stages.

Germany is 2000 points off England and 5000 points above Italy. Since it looks like 3 of England's teams will fail to qualify further in the CL it's mathematically possible that Germany will surpass England in the UEFA coefficients this year

Hapless_Hans wrote:

S wrote:

sportsczy wrote:There's no controversy.  Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3.  In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.

4th spot lmao

Are you aware that Ligue 1 is like 26 points behind Germany in the co-efficients table ? There's no chance of seeing that considering Germany are continuing to perform in Europe and most of Ligue 1 have been disappointing likewise.

Germany is 3rd place, my friend, he is talking about 4th, as in, your place   

Ok i assumed he was talking about 4th CL spot for Ligue 1.If so,my apologies.

FilthyLuca wrote:contradicting myself how? they put themselves in a hole early on, and when it came to the last game, they made it possible for Gala to turn it into a crap shoot as opposed to a top level game, because of the conditions of the "pitch".  does that mean Milan, who hadn't won a league game in 2 months, and had a much easier group than Juve are better because they did qualify?

*sigh*
This is not about which team is better than another, Juve didn't qualify because they were not good enough.

You can look at the last game of the groups and draw your conclusions from there, but they couldn't beat FCK away, couldn't beat Madrid once, and took 1 point of Gala.

1 win out of 6. Juve were not good enough to get out of the groups this year.

You would expect a better performance in EUROPE, but they didn't.
They weren't good enough this year.

Robespierre wrote:the 4th CL spot is the only thing where Germany prevailed on Italy in football    

Anyway I don't forget Italy lost the 4th Champions League  spot simply for great difference in Europa League , infact before of this overtaking AC Milan and Inter  had won the Champions League recently while we had we had to go back to 2001 to see a German club winning in Champions League with Bayern  Munchen leaded by Hitzfield.

TBH It is  a bit questionable if it is right that  a CL spot is decided because of   results of Another cup but anyway this is rule and it must be accepted, even if Serie A can be preferred as league to Bundesliga ( as I think but personal opinion. )

Personally I am not worried about this contention , I see it as a far thing, Serie A has deeper problems, , the system Serie A doesn't grows,we haven't magnates or the German organization ( this  must be recognized, of course, and probably they deserve the 4rd place expecially for this more than results ) , it rests on his laures relying on tradition of its clubs ( we can still have appeal thanks to club supported everywhere as Inter, Milan , Juventus   etc but it s a fragile base)and so it does not feel the need to improve   and at this rate we risk to lose even the 4th place.

as long as Jogi Löw is in charge, you'll probably be able to continue that national team advantage

but don't forget that you had the match fixing scandal as well, where with Juve and Milan your two CL stalwarts were downsized, and Mancini's Inter or Fiorentina weren't able to fill these boots. That's where you lost a lot of points as well.

Russian league will take over Ligue 1 in UEFA coefficients next season if 2 of the Russian teams in EL go to quarter final and PSG don't go into the final.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Robespierre wrote:the 4th CL spot is the only thing where Germany prevailed on Italy in football    

Anyway I don't forget Italy lost the 4th Champions League  spot simply for great difference in Europa League , infact before of this overtaking AC Milan and Inter  had won the Champions League recently while we had we had to go back to 2001 to see a German club winning in Champions League with Bayern  Munchen leaded by Hitzfield.

TBH It is  a bit questionable if it is right that  a CL spot is decided because of   results of Another cup but anyway this is rule and it must be accepted, even if Serie A can be preferred as league to Bundesliga ( as I think but personal opinion. )

Personally I am not worried about this contention , I see it as a far thing, Serie A has deeper problems, , the system Serie A doesn't grows,we haven't magnates or the German organization ( this  must be recognized, of course, and probably they deserve the 4rd place expecially for this more than results ) , it rests on his laures relying on tradition of its clubs ( we can still have appeal thanks to club supported everywhere as Inter, Milan , Juventus   etc but it s a fragile base)and so it does not feel the need to improve   and at this rate we risk to lose even the 4th place.

as long as Jogi Löw is in charge, you'll probably be able to continue that national team advantage

but don't forget that you had the match fixing scandal as well, where with Juve and Milan your two CL stalwarts were downsized, and Mancini's Inter or Fiorentina weren't able to fill these boots. That's where you lost a lot of points as well.

I don't understand the irritation in your world.
And there was not Low in 1970 and in 1982.
Anyway , no,  Milan and Inter won cup in 2007 and in 2010 ( and it eliminated also the Bayern both the times, so you will remember I think) , it s not this the point, simply  in past Italian clubs could permittt to buy best players in the world ( do you remember 80s, 90s etc? Beginning of 2000 ? Who bought Matthaus? ) ,then system cracked for  unsustainable costs and a regulation began ... now they must sell Eto'o, or Ibramimovic, Cavani or Thiago Silva etc clubs economically stronger than them (it's a wheel who turns I accept it ) and this makes the difference.
The financial support is the most important factor in a club success if I want to quote another thread read here , on the other hand.

For this reason I critized the system Serie A, who doesn't grow , who tries to change Nothing because it is convinced to be STILL the beter in the world and I praised the German organization , who worked brillantly these year not having the support of magnates   but thanks a modern stadium and infrastructure (all thing seem impossible to make in Italy ......a nation with old mentality. )  - but sadly I see you eluded this.
Patience. We should try to imitate you in this, no problems to say it, considering you haven't also sheikhs, magnats as us but you  faced the problem to solve it , not resting on own laurels.
Then yes, to have an Italian Bayern who buys up Cavani,Eto'o,Ibrahimovic,Strootman from other Italian clubs would helped much to compete per CL final but but that is another story.

fair enough, however I wasn't trying to disagree with you in the first place.

Serie A have done absolutely nothing  to reclaim that 4th spot. The Buli worked their asses off to get back into the reckoning and get that 4th spot. It's not just about what happened on the pitch. These clubs totally reinvested in their youth and rebuilt their setups from the ground up to gain a competitive edge. It worked wonders as we saw last season.

Serie A has not done this and have shown very little signs of making any type of attempt to do this. They see the scudetto as more important than the Champions League (and especially the Europa League). This is why they continue to cycle through the same tired group of old, crusty, traditional coaches who will never give youth a chance and will never move outside of their comfort zone and join the rest of the continent in modern football. If Italy want that 4th spot back, they need to earn it just like the Buli did. It took a lot of money, a lot of change and a completely different mindset to approaching the game on and off the pitch.

Serie A are at least beginning to come around to the change which is where so many teams are trying to build their own stadiums to increase revenue, and if that proves successful, the money will come. It's the shift from traaditional values to more modern ones that is the most challenging. There are too many old heads who will not allow this and they come from not only the clubs' hierarchies, but the FIGC as well.

Until this happens, Serie A should and will continue to languish behind more deserving leagues, who actually take this competition seriously.

One of the best arguments about Germany deserving their fourth spot is really that their 4 teams qualified for the last 16.

However, the opposite argument that Italy having only one representative in the last 16 isn't as valid.

For starters, Italy only had 3 candidates, so they can't exactly have more than 3 teams up. Also, Napoli did more to qualify than many other qualifiers and actually managed to gain more Coeff points than most second group winners.

I need to say though, that the fact one can gain more points in the EL than in the CL is baffling. There should be more wight given to the CL than the EL imo.