That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy

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That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy Empty That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy

Post by Forza Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:01 am

How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

For the record, I DID NOT create this thread, even though my post is the OP. I am disappointed that this thread has been created with my OP and without my permission because that comment was not intended to spark this discussion, nor was it sophisticated enough to frame this debate. The comment should have be read in the context of the thread it was originally posted in and only in that context. In future, I would ask that my posts are not used to create threads again without my knowing.

This is the first time I have seen this thread and, therefore, I take this opportunity to clarify my position:

Under the current rules, Germany has fairly and deservedly earned the right to 4 Champions League places. Personally, I am of the opinion that having earnt this status, German teams other than Bayern and Dortmund have represented their league poorly. My annoyance is simply a reaction to the hypothetical scenario of whether a 4th placed Italian team might have done better and, at the very least, created a better footballing contest. Indeed, I hope that Germany puts forward better candidates in the Champions League next season. Italy too, has put forward some unworthy teams into European competition, Udinese being the most obvious example. I am mentioning this to show that my sentiment is not directed at any one league or group of fans, but to express my desire to see a higher quality of football in European competition across more teams.

This concludes my explanation of the OP.

If you would like to keep this thread open, I would suggest that the real area for discussion is regarding to the rules for the calculation of coefficients. In particular:
1) Whether changing the rules would improve the European competitions; and
2) How the rules could be changed to achieve that improvement.


Last edited by Forza on Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by S Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:30 am

Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

Am i missing something ? They made knockout rounds this year dint they.

Fiorentina lol..Put them in Leverkusen's place and i doubt they would even pass the same group.

Getting thrashed by the top teams is not an issue of quality but more an issue of mentality which Leverkusen are unable to get that off themselves.

All 4 German teams made it to the last 16 this year.Lets not view everything as black or white.Credit where its due.
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Post by Forza Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:43 am

S wrote:
Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

Am i missing something ? They made knockout rounds this year dint they.

Fiorentina lol..Put them in Leverkusen's place and i doubt they would even pass the same group.

Getting thrashed by the top teams is not an issue of quality but more an issue of mentality which Leverkusen are unable to get that off themselves.

All 4 German teams made it to the last 16 this year.Lets not view everything as black or white.Credit where its due.
That credit is undeserved. Leverkusen limped through that group and are always thoroughly embarrassed in this competition. I don't think you can attribute this to issues of "mentality". They clearly don't have the quality or depth to compete across 3 competitions. You're right in saying that we don't know how well Fiorentina would do in their place, but let's not pretend that Leverkusen are up to standard.
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Post by S Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:51 am

Forza wrote:
S wrote:
Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

Am i missing something ? They made knockout rounds this year dint they.

Fiorentina lol..Put them in Leverkusen's place and i doubt they would even pass the same group.

Getting thrashed by the top teams is not an issue of quality but more an issue of mentality which Leverkusen are unable to get that off themselves.

All 4 German teams made it to the last 16 this year.Lets not view everything as black or white.Credit where its due.
That credit is undeserved. Leverkusen limped through that group and are always thoroughly embarrassed in this competition. I don't think you can attribute this to issues of "mentality". They clearly don't have the quality or depth to compete across 3 competitions. You're right in saying that we don't know how well Fiorentina would do in their place, but let's not pretend that Leverkusen are up to standard.

Leverkusen 'limped' through the group stage at the expense of two pretty decent teams in Shakthar and Sociedad.So its not like they were totally scrubbing it.I mean,they did thrash Shakthar 4-0 at home dint they ?
There's no doubting there's difference in quality between them and the top sides they've faced this year but getting humiliated at home like that,i'd definitely put it down to their mentality against top teams.They have a history behind it afterall.
Again,not even suggesting they're a proper CL standard team but i dont understand you being upset of teams like them participating in the CL in place of Italian sides when Italian teams themselves have been disappointing in Europe.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:53 am

S wrote:
Forza wrote:
S wrote:

Am i missing something ? They made knockout rounds this year dint they.

Fiorentina lol..Put them in Leverkusen's place and i doubt they would even pass the same group.

Getting thrashed by the top teams is not an issue of quality but more an issue of mentality which Leverkusen are unable to get that off themselves.

All 4 German teams made it to the last 16 this year.Lets not view everything as black or white.Credit where its due.
That credit is undeserved. Leverkusen limped through that group and are always thoroughly embarrassed in this competition. I don't think you can attribute this to issues of "mentality". They clearly don't have the quality or depth to compete across 3 competitions. You're right in saying that we don't know how well Fiorentina would do in their place, but let's not pretend that Leverkusen are up to standard.

Leverkusen 'limped' through the group stage at the expense of two pretty decent teams in Shakthar and Sociedad.So its not like they were totally scrubbing it.I mean,they did thrash Shakthar 4-0 at home dint they ?
There's no doubting there's difference in quality between them and the top sides they've faced this year but getting humiliated at home like that,i'd definitely put it down to their mentality against top teams.They have a history behind it afterall.
Again,not even suggesting they're a proper CL standard team but i dont understand you being upset of teams like them participating in the CL in place of Italian sides when Italian teams themselves have been disappointing in Europe.

Totally agreed with Surag. Forgest Fiorentina, how awesome would it have been if a proper CL team like Liverpool were in Leverkusen's place ?

If I was Platini, I'd grant the teams with 5Cl wins or more automatic qualification every season regardless of their league position. Why? Because those teams are what CL is all about. They simply get it.

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Post by S Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:54 am

And their current league position doesnt suggest anything.They might be second now but there's only a 4 point gap between 2nd and 5th and for all we know we could still see a possibility of them dropping outside the CL spots especially with the likes of Wolfsburg and Schalke picking up some decent form.
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:02 am

No they're is a huge gap in Leverkusen in how they are in Bundesliga compared to Schalke and Wolfsburg who are the product of some excellent form, yet seldom perform to the levels of Leverkusen. Which is why it is so disappointing to see Leverkusen flop in the Champions League given their BuLi performances. Point observation wouldn't justify how Leverkusen genuinely have been the 2nd best team in the league.
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Post by S Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:08 am

But mathematically there's still a possibility,the likes of Schalke and Wolfsburg can claim CL places at the expense of Leverkusen not saying they would totally drop out of it though,just suggesting.

Point here is,Leverkusen flopping against big teams shouldnt reflect on the quality of the league in any sense.
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:39 am

Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.
You are still not over losing your 4th CL spot? Laughing

You might want to work on your UEFA coefficient if you want it back - but so far you already lost two more points compared with Germany:
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2014.html
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Post by zigra Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:02 pm

Italy has three teams in the CL. One team made it to the round of the last 16 and they lost the first tie playing at home. Why would anyone want to give them another spot?
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:17 pm

Arquitescu wrote:No they're is a huge gap in Leverkusen in how they are in Bundesliga compared to Schalke and Wolfsburg who are the product of some excellent form, yet seldom perform to the levels of Leverkusen. Which is why it is so disappointing to see Leverkusen flop in the Champions League given their BuLi performances. Point observation wouldn't justify how Leverkusen genuinely have been the 2nd best team in the league.
2012/13: Schalke 4th, Leverkusen 3rd
2011/12: Schalke 3rd, Leverkusen 5th
2010/11: Schalke 14th (but reached CL Semi), Leverkusen 2nd
2009/10: Schalke 2nd, Leverkusen 4th
2008/09: Schalke 8th, Leverkusen 9th

Actually you can't say Leverkusen is really better than Schalke - they are more or less the same level.
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Post by dostoevsky Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:27 pm

The fact that all four German teams qualified for the next round suggests to me that there should be no argument that they deserve four spots.

I do believe that it in the future, it may be worth reviewing whether only three leagues believe to have four teams entered in, as both Italy and France may in the future be worthy of having three automatic places with one play-off spot or even two automatic with two play-offs. I think that it would be premature at this stage as this remains a transitional stage for the likes of Napoli, Roma, Monaco and others who must become not merely pretenders in one competition but threats in three.

As for Leverkusen getting thumped, I don't think it's strictly relevant. Roma were put to the sword 7-1 by United in the same year that Milan won the Champions League. Teams will occasionally be annihilated; the important thing is that Leverkusen have a fairly stable project.
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Post by The_Badger Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:28 pm

No team in the CL this year was as big of an embarrassment as Juventus were.

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Post by dostoevsky Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:30 pm

Though to their credit United are giving it their best shot That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy Lulcas11
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Post by sportsczy Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:41 pm

There's no controversy. Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3. In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:49 pm

Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage? Laughing

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

you tool, get ahead of us in the UEFA 5 year valuation, and you have your spot.
Until then shut the *bleep* up, and maybe stop fixing games, while you're at it.

Docked -25% warning level for insulting another forum member. If you can't debate a topic without insulting other people, do us all a favor and not post in that topic.


Last edited by Hapless_Hans on Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:53 pm

Well, to collect sufficient points to reach the 3rd spot in the UEFA ranking, France need to collect additional points in the EL as well. I'm not sure PSG and Monaco alone wouldl be able to collect the points France need.
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Post by The_Badger Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:53 pm

sportsczy wrote:There's no controversy.  Serie A is closer to Portugal and Ligue 1 in terms of UEFA coefficient than it is to the top 3.  In fact, with Monaco entering the European fray next year to go with PSG, i expect Ligue 1 to take over the 4th spot in the next 2-3 years.

It'll take more than just PSG and Monaco doing well to improve Ligue 1's coeff. I mean, there's only one French team in the knockout of the CL and only one in the EL this year.  :facepalm: 

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Post by Le Samourai Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:54 pm

I feel as though there could be some revision to the play-off structure so as to include teams like Napoli and Fiorentina, then have the losers in that round bumped to Europa.
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:55 pm

@Hans

Please do not insult other posters if they post something that opposes your opinion. Just using rational arguments usually works better and doesn't make you look bad.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:02 pm

I thought I'd look best insulting him, but I'll take the advice!

Sorry, Forza! I feel for you!
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:03 pm

@Hans: Thank you Smile

Le Samourai wrote:I feel as though there could be some revision to the play-off structure so as to include teams like Napoli and Fiorentina, then have the losers in that round bumped to Europa.
Why should it? If teams like Napoli or Fiorentina want to compete in Europe, they should earn it by ending high enough in their league. And if you say "But Serie A is sooooo competitive" - well, the fight for European places in Germany isn't a cakewalk either.
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Post by urbaNRoots Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:08 pm

Why is it controversial? 4 German teams out of 4 went through the group stages, 2 are ALMOST already in the Quarter finals, doesn't that justify their 4 places unlike the Italian teams who have been poor result wise in the CL?

Better question would be if Serie A deserve 4 spots aswell? Maybe they do, I don't watch Serie A enough to know more about it.
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Post by rwo power Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:11 pm

Well, I put the "controversy" in quotes and used that title for want of a better one when I split this thread from the Olympiacos-ManUtd thread where it was a bit off-topic. Could you mayhap suggest a better title?
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Post by Le Samourai Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:14 pm

rwo power wrote:@Hans: Thank you Smile

Le Samourai wrote:I feel as though there could be some revision to the play-off structure so as to include teams like Napoli and Fiorentina, then have the losers in that round bumped to Europa.

Why should it? If teams like Napoli or Fiorentina want to compete in Europe, they should earn it by ending high enough in their league. And if you say "But Serie A is sooooo competitive" - well, the fight for European places in Germany isn't a cakewalk either.

To improve the level of competition in the Champions League.

I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

It's really a matter of deciding what you want, because the coefficient system does seem meritocratic, but, at the end of the day, a system where more places are filled with teams capable of beating teams in front of them will vastly improve the competition.
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