That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy

rwo power wrote:@Hans: Thank you

Le Samourai wrote:I feel as though there could be some revision to the play-off structure so as to include teams like Napoli and Fiorentina, then have the losers in that round bumped to Europa.

Why should it? If teams like Napoli or Fiorentina want to compete in Europe, they should earn it by ending high enough in their league. And if you say "But Serie A is sooooo competitive" - well, the fight for European places in Germany isn't a cakewalk either.

To improve the level of competition in the Champions League.

I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

It's really a matter of deciding what you want, because the coefficient system does seem meritocratic, but, at the end of the day, a system where more places are filled with teams capable of beating teams in front of them will vastly improve the competition.

There is no controversy at all. Italy haven't done enough over the last five years in Europe to warrant four places. Germany have. Case closed.

Le Samourai wrote:I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

But how are they the best teams if they can't even qualify?

I dont want to get into the comparison between German Teams in Europe and Italian Teams in Europe on an individual team basis. But from last few seasons, Germans teams are performing good enough in both CL and Europa Leauge and as a result they actually have more points in the coeff table.

If you even take this year's example, four German teams are still in CL but there is only 1 Italian team in CL right now, that says something.

Leverkusen doesnt have a problem when they play against big teams if they are from Germany, it is just a "foreign big team" thing, when I was for Leverkusen's match on CL, even the fans-friends always spoke about the fear against a team like ManUtd or .. ..., but when I told them about Moyes and their league position in EPL they were so furious

I get the impression that what Le Samourai wants is a European Super League.

rwo power wrote:Well, to collect sufficient points to reach the 3rd spot in the UEFA ranking, France need to collect additional points in the EL as well. I'm not sure PSG and Monaco alone wouldl be able to collect the points France need.

 Serie A historically do nothing in Europa.  Like Ligue 1, the teams prefer to focus on the league since, after the clear top dogs, it gets very close in terms of points.  There's nothing to gain by getting yourself tired or injured in Europa.  You're only getting more focus on Europa this year because Juve and Napoli crashed out of CL.  Juve have a huge lead in Serie A so they can afford to play Europa more and Rafa is hunting for a trophy... Europa is probably his best bet.  But typically, you will have the 2 tops sides in Serie A make it to elimination rounds and the Europa teams focus on the league rather than Europa.

As far as points...  It also depends how far you go in a competition.  I expect PSG to go very far and Monaco to get into elimination rounds to start.  

In any case, after the top 3 that get an extra CL spot... spots 4-6 don't mean a thing.  It doesn't change like for you in terms of CL spots.  So who cares really.  There's absolutely no chance...  NONE.... that anyone catches up to the top 3 leagues in the near future.  So this is all a moot debate tbh.

rwo power wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

But how are they the best teams if they can't even qualify?

exactly and
to add to that every league is a a group of 18-20 teams. So for all the fair reward purpose, I feel that the current system is doing OK as of now. So the collective performanc should be of course given higher credits than some individual team which has ability to reach finals or even win the final

BTW, if Napoli were so good, why weren't they able to get out of their CL group? And don't say "But they had Arsenal and Dortmund in it" - by your definition they should have been above Dortmund, shouldn't they?

The same goes for Juve, who were only able to win 1 single match in a group containing Real Madrid, Galatasaray Istanbul and FC Kopenhagen.

Fiorentina is a fancier name with fancy football players compared to the likes of Olympiakos, I guess that's why they should be in the CL instead...

sportsczy, do you understand how the coefficient points system works?

rwo power wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

But how are they the best teams if they can't even qualify?

Many ways, all of which I don't have time to point out. But after all the regular situations that pan out (teams end up losing their best players et.al.) It comes down to how much you value consistency in a given league.

A couple years ago Levante were a couple points off Champions League, if not for a couple key injuries, they would have probably made it. I doubt anybody, even the most patriotic Valencian thought they should be there.

For the Champions League, at least in my mind, the best team is the one that can beat it's European competition, not the one that scrapes a spot in it's own league.

Le Samourai wrote:For the Champions League, at least in my mind, the best team is the one that can beat it's European competition, not the one that scrapes a spot in it's own league.

So you mean that for example Juventus Turin should have no place in the CL?

rwo power wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:For the Champions League, at least in my mind, the best team is the one that can beat it's European competition, not the one that scrapes a spot in it's own league.

So you mean that for example Juventus Turin should have no place in the CL?

Ideally yes, though I'm not sure you can start making League winners play play-off as more people would watch the play-off than the actual competition   My suggestion mainly pertains to the marginal teams.

Sam I am not sure if that makes any sense but I will say take away even the remaining last spot from Italy if they cant even get out of their group embarassing their league like this and then cant score/win against a midttable club from England or a club almost threatened by relegation.

Serie A has 1 team out of the groups stage while Germany have all four. How in the world does Serie A deserve any extra CL spot is beyond me..judging by the performance 1 should be revoked not added lol.

rwo power wrote:

Arquitescu wrote:No they're is a huge gap in Leverkusen in how they are in Bundesliga compared to Schalke and Wolfsburg who are the product of some excellent form, yet seldom perform to the levels of Leverkusen. Which is why it is so disappointing to see Leverkusen flop in the Champions League given their BuLi performances. Point observation wouldn't justify how Leverkusen genuinely have been the 2nd best team in the league.

2012/13: Schalke 4th, Leverkusen 3rd
2011/12: Schalke 3rd, Leverkusen 5th
2010/11: Schalke 14th (but reached CL Semi), Leverkusen 2nd
2009/10: Schalke 2nd, Leverkusen 4th
2008/09: Schalke 8th, Leverkusen 9th

Actually you can't say Leverkusen is really better than Schalke - they are more or less the same level.

That is a completely flawed argument. Posting the seasonal positions of 4-5 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with the current levels of the team onto whom possess a different manager, players, system and semantics.

It does not take close visual inference of the tactical digression and quality (or squad) to differentiate between the level of Schalke and Leverkusen. The latter have been superior all year in their play, performances versus top teams in the Bundesliga as a recent drop in form due to the thinness of their depth has caused the disparity to be reduced. Yet there is no question on who has performed better in the last 2 years so far.

And Schalke reached the semis mostly due to throwing all their eggs in one basket in the CL to which dearly cost them.

The rest of this silly 4th spot debate? Germany deserve it.

rwo power wrote:BTW, if Napoli were so good, why weren't they able to get out of their CL group? And don't say "But they had Arsenal and Dortmund in it" - by your definition they should have been above Dortmund, shouldn't they?

The same goes for Juve, who were only able to win 1 single match in a group containing Real Madrid, Galatasaray Istanbul and FC Kopenhagen.

Napoli deserved to get out of their group though, along with Arsenal and BVB.

It is the first time in CL history that a team with 12 points does not qualify. It is not as if they didn't manage to beat both Dortmund and Arsenal.

In fact, I think it is the fact that Napoli did not get out of their group that probably angers most Italian fans, as they deserved it much more than many of the teams in the CL. I would say it deserves it better than even Milan.

Also, with Italian teams in the EL; it is simply not a worth it competition for most teams. Given the current TV deals, you get more money by getting higher up in the Serie A table than by winning the damn thing.

Even though, Italian teams should have no reason to complain if they scrub it in the CL Juve style.

I really see no issue to Germany having the 4th spot. At least it'll make teams in Serie A more conscious-wary regarding their quality. If you really want CL, you'll have to strive for it.

Le Samourai wrote:

rwo power wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:I just want to see the best teams in the competition, period. I have zero sympathy for clubs in Italy, Germany or England, I don't really care about how difficult any of these leagues may or may not be.

But how are they the best teams if they can't even qualify?

Many ways, all of which I don't have time to point out. But after all the regular situations that pan out (teams end up losing their best players et.al.) It comes down to how much you value consistency in a given league.

A couple years ago Levante were a couple points off Champions League, if not for a couple key injuries, they would have probably made it. I doubt anybody, even the most patriotic Valencian thought they should be there.

For the Champions League, at least in my mind, the best team is the one that can beat it's European competition, not the one that scrapes a spot in it's own league.

are you suggesting CL spots should be awarded based on name, history, and perceived quality or potential instead of on actual results?
Who's going to be the instance to judge that -you?   

Lord Spencer wrote:Also, with Italian teams in the EL; it is simply not a worth it competition for most teams. Given the current TV deals, you get more money by getting higher up in the Serie A table than by winning the damn thing.

Well, for German teams it usually doesn't bring too much money either, but for example for Eintracht Frankfurt, "every EL game is a festive holiday" (to quote Armin Veh from today's PK), and so they give their very best for the fans (incidentally Frankfurt's EL matches are usually sold out).

And if the Italian teams don't look at the greater picture and simply drop out of the EL for selfish reasons, they shouldn't complain if they hurt their league (and thus in the end themselves) by making them lose CL spots in the the long run.

Germany deserve for 4CL spots because they are ranked ahead Italy in UEFA Ranking which is the most authoritative. EOT.

Nobody cares what Italians thinks about EL / UEFA Cup

Hapless_Hans wrote:
are you suggesting CL spots should be awarded based on name, history, and perceived quality or potential instead of on actual results?
Who's going to be the instance to judge that -you?   

I'm simply suggesting you give more teams the opportunity to qualify through modification of the play-off structure. Who qualifies will be entirely based on actual results, preferably results against actual competition.

If Fiorentina plays Leverkuzen and beats them, who can argue with that? The main benefit to me will be eliminating the Bate Borisov's of the world before the competition actually starts, getting the better teams from the top leagues being a secondary benefit.

Le Samourai wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:
are you suggesting CL spots should be awarded based on name, history, and perceived quality or potential instead of on actual results?
Who's going to be the instance to judge that -you?   

I'm simply suggesting you give more teams the opportunity to qualify through modification of the play-off structure. Who qualifies will be entirely based on actual results, preferably results against actual competition.

If Fiorentina plays Leverkuzen and beats them, who can argue with that? The main benefit to me will be eliminating the Bate Borisov's of the world before the competition actually starts, getting the better teams from the top leagues being a secondary benefit.

but that would mean dragging out the competition even longer, with a play off stage before?

I don't know what's so terrible about the current system, tbh, the BATE's of this world are in it because they qualified, and lo and behold they managed to inflict one of whopping two overall defeats on the later European champions.

Moreover, at least in name it is still the *Champions* League, so adding even more non-champions is probably not really the best idea - after all, they are not really the best in their leagues.

rwo power wrote:BTW, if Napoli were so good, why weren't they able to get out of their CL group? And don't say "But they had Arsenal and Dortmund in it" - by your definition they should have been above Dortmund, shouldn't they?

The same goes for Juve, who were only able to win 1 single match in a group containing Real Madrid, Galatasaray Istanbul and FC Kopenhagen.

 
Juve started off slow (for whatever reason, thats their fault), Llorente wasn't match fit yet after a year out, hence they still had the problem of non existent goal scorers.
 
Juves group had 3 quarter finalists from the previous year, one of which a semifinalist.  its not like they had Ajax (who sold their best players over the summer) and Celtic.  
 
And for the record, I think any unbiased adult here would concede, that considering their form since October, including the two games against probably the best or second best team in Europe, they would've easily qualified had Gala closed their retractable stadium, instead of purposely letting the field turn to shit so the can make it, as Mancini called it, a "Lottery".

serie A fans still have the audacity to be condescending and judgemental  of other leagues after their best teams embarassing display in a relatively easy group ?

let's compare serie A and bundesliga results over the past 3 seasons:
2011 : 1 german team in the semifinals  , 0 italian team past the quarterfinals .
2012 : 1 german team in the final , o italian team past the quarterfinals.
2013 :  2 german teams in the final , 0 italian team past the quarterfinals.