That 4th CL spot "controversy" between Germany and Italy

One of the best arguments about Germany deserving their fourth spot is really that their 4 teams qualified for the last 16.

However, the opposite argument that Italy having only one representative in the last 16 isn't as valid.

For starters, Italy only had 3 candidates, so they can't exactly have more than 3 teams up. Also, Napoli did more to qualify than many other qualifiers and actually managed to gain more Coeff points than most second group winners.

I need to say though, that the fact one can gain more points in the EL than in the CL is baffling. There should be more wight given to the CL than the EL imo.

Robespierre (now realise the name, very cute) English may be broken but I so agree with him on this whole debacle. Essentially, my boy Lewis translated it for him to the tee.

Robes wrote:Then yes, to have an Italian Bayern who buys up Cavani,Eto'o,Ibrahimovic,Strootman from other Italian clubs would helped much to compete per CL final but but that is another story. Proud

There is a Buyern in Serie A. It's name is PSG

Spoiler:

Anyways its practically impossible for an Italian Buyern to exist within Serie A purely because of the sheer rivalry between teams if you get what i'm saying.

good post McLewis . You were  more exhaustive than me

Hapless_Hans wrote:fair enough, however I wasn't trying to disagree with you in the first place.

ah ok!


@BC

Lord Spencer wrote:I need to say though, that the fact one can gain more points in the EL than in the CL is baffling. There should be more wight given to the CL than the EL imo.

If the league is strong it will be strong across all teams, not just the ones at the top.

Juventus at many points were the Italian Bayern. They did not buy anyone from Milan or Inter but from Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Cagliari and all the other clubs they bought a lot. They agreed a fee for Gigi Riva once but Cagliari fans rioted and the transfer got cancelled. Same thing also happened with Gigi Meroni.

M99 wrote:Juventus at many points were the Italian Bayern. They did not buy anyone from Milan or Inter but from Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Cagliari and all the other clubs they bought a lot. They agreed a fee for Gigi Riva once but Cagliari fans rioted and the transfer got cancelled. Same thing also happened with Gigi Meroni.

Looks like my post was taken out of context.

You dont see Roma,Napoli,Milan and even Fiorentina wanting to sell to Juventus nowadays even if we had the money.Whereas Bayern have had no problem buying players from Dortmund,Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

Its impossible to see Juventus having a Bayern-esque stranglehold over the Italian market now unless we're talking about buying players from mid-table/bottom mid-table clubs which is a moot argument.

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage?

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

you tool, get ahead of us in the UEFA 5 year valuation, and you have your spot.
Until then shut the *bleep* up, and maybe stop fixing games, while you're at it.

Docked -25% warning level for insulting another forum member. If you can't debate a topic without insulting other people, do us all a favor and not post in that topic.

I think that my opinion has been misunderstood and I regret that Hans has been docked warning as a result.

For the record, I DID NOT create this thread, even though my post is the OP. I am disappointed that this thread has been created with my OP and without my permission because that comment was not intended to spark this discussion, nor was it sophisticated enough to frame this debate. The comment should have be read in the context of the thread it was originally posted in and only in that context. In future, I would ask that my posts are not used to create threads again without my knowing.

This is the first time I have seen this thread and, therefore, I take this opportunity to clarify my position:

Under the current rules, Germany has fairly and deservedly earned the right to 4 Champions League places. Personally, I am of the opinion that having earnt this status, German teams other than Bayern and Dortmund have represented their league poorly. My annoyance is simply a reaction to the hypothetical scenario of whether a 4th placed Italian team might have done better and, at the very least, created a better footballing contest. Indeed, I hope that Germany puts forward better candidates in the Champions League next season. Italy too, has put forward some unworthy teams into European competition, Udinese being the most obvious example. I am mentioning this to show that my sentiment is not directed at any one league or group of fans, but to express my desire to see a higher quality of football in European competition across more teams.

This concludes my explanation of the OP.

If you would like to keep this thread open, I would suggest that the real area for discussion is regarding to the rules for the calculation of coefficients. In particular:
1) Whether changing the rules would improve the European competitions; and
2) How the rules could be changed to achieve that improvement.

S wrote:

M99 wrote:Juventus at many points were the Italian Bayern. They did not buy anyone from Milan or Inter but from Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Cagliari and all the other clubs they bought a lot. They agreed a fee for Gigi Riva once but Cagliari fans rioted and the transfer got cancelled. Same thing also happened with Gigi Meroni.

Looks like my post was taken out of context.

You dont see Roma,Napoli,Milan and even Fiorentina wanting to sell to Juventus nowadays even if we had the money.Whereas Bayern have had no problem buying players from Dortmund,Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

Its impossible to see Juventus having a Bayern-esque stranglehold over the Italian market now unless we're talking about buying players from mid-table/bottom mid-table clubs which is a moot argument.

I agree with you. Right now there is no club like Bayern who controls the market of their league. But in the past arguments can be made for Juve and especially Lyon.

Forza wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:

Forza wrote:How bad was Neverkusen to get thrashed at home by Man U in MD6 of the group stage?

Just thinking that they will be in the CL next year at the expense of Fio or Napoli annoys me. Not to mention that Neverkusen are actually 2nd in the BuLi. Who knows what other scrub team will join Bayern and Dortmund in the CL next season.

you tool, get ahead of us in the UEFA 5 year valuation, and you have your spot.
Until then shut the *bleep* up, and maybe stop fixing games, while you're at it.

Docked -25% warning level for insulting another forum member. If you can't debate a topic without insulting other people, do us all a favor and not post in that topic.

I think that my opinion has been misunderstood and I regret that Hans has been docked warning as a result.

For the record, I DID NOT create this thread, even though my post is the OP. I am disappointed that this thread has been created with my OP and without my permission because that comment was not intended to spark this discussion, nor was it sophisticated enough to frame this debate. The comment should have be read in the context of the thread it was originally posted in and only in that context. In future, I would ask that my posts are not used to create threads again without my knowing.

This is the first time I have seen this thread and, therefore, I take this opportunity to clarify my position:

Under the current rules, Germany has fairly and deservedly earned the right to 4 Champions League places. Personally, I am of the opinion that having earnt this status, German teams other than Bayern and Dortmund have represented their league poorly. My annoyance is simply a reaction to the hypothetical scenario of whether a 4th placed Italian team might have done better and, at the very least, created a better footballing contest. Indeed, I hope that Germany puts forward better candidates in the Champions League next season. Italy too, has put forward some unworthy teams into European competition, Udinese being the most obvious example. I am mentioning this to show that my sentiment is not directed at any one league or group of fans, but to express my desire to see a higher quality of football in European competition across more teams.

This concludes my explanation of the OP.

If you would like to keep this thread open, I would suggest that the real area for discussion is regarding to the rules for the calculation of coefficients. In particular:
1) Whether changing the rules would improve the European competitions; and
2) How the rules could be changed to achieve that improvement.

Forza, no worries, I really didn't notice you didn't actually mean the post as the opening post of a thread, else I wouldn't have attacked your post at all.
  

I'm sorry I mentioned it only a bit later here that I split this thread from the Olympiacos-ManUtd thread where it was off-topic.

I just thought it is a topic people still like to get into debates about, and the number of pages by now seem to support me there. ^^

S wrote:You dont see Roma,Napoli,Milan and even Fiorentina wanting to sell to Juventus nowadays even if we had the money.Whereas Bayern have had no problem buying players from Dortmund,Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

Its impossible to see Juventus having a Bayern-esque stranglehold over the Italian market now unless we're talking about buying players from mid-table/bottom mid-table clubs which is a moot argument.

Hm. However you do it, you do it wrong, it seems.

Schalke decided to cash in big on Manuel Neuer who was in his last year of his contract and Bayern paid. If they hadn't sold him, Neuer would have gone to Bayern for free.

Dortmund on the other hand decided not to sell Robert Lewandowski in the last year if his contract and now he is going to Bayern for free (for which Dortmund gets a lot of flak, too). Neither Neuer nor Lewa would have gone to another club.

And in the case of Mario Götze, a release clause was used where Dortmund had no say in the matter.

What exactly would an Italian club have done with a player in the last year of his contract who insisted on a move to Juve?

EPL should have 6 CL spots.

#Donthate

S wrote:

M99 wrote:Juventus at many points were the Italian Bayern. They did not buy anyone from Milan or Inter but from Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Cagliari and all the other clubs they bought a lot. They agreed a fee for Gigi Riva once but Cagliari fans rioted and the transfer got cancelled. Same thing also happened with Gigi Meroni.

Looks like my post was taken out of context.

You dont see Roma,Napoli,Milan and even Fiorentina wanting to sell to Juventus nowadays even if we had the money.Whereas Bayern have had no problem buying players from Dortmund,Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

Its impossible to see Juventus having a Bayern-esque stranglehold over the Italian market now unless we're talking about buying players from mid-table/bottom mid-table clubs which is a moot argument.

Agreed, funny how the hostility between Serie A clubs trickles down to us fans, and the general friendliness between Bundesliga clubs also trickles down to their fans (AKA BundesLegacy)  

Highburied wrote:EPL should have 6 CL spots.

#Donthate

4 German teams = 2 W 0 D 2 L
4 English Team = 0W 1 D 3 L

Sure.

El Shaarawy wrote:

S wrote:

M99 wrote:Juventus at many points were the Italian Bayern. They did not buy anyone from Milan or Inter but from Fiorentina, Lazio, Torino, Cagliari and all the other clubs they bought a lot. They agreed a fee for Gigi Riva once but Cagliari fans rioted and the transfer got cancelled. Same thing also happened with Gigi Meroni.

Looks like my post was taken out of context.

You dont see Roma,Napoli,Milan and even Fiorentina wanting to sell to Juventus nowadays even if we had the money.Whereas Bayern have had no problem buying players from Dortmund,Wolfsburg or Schalke for example.

Its impossible to see Juventus having a Bayern-esque stranglehold over the Italian market now unless we're talking about buying players from mid-table/bottom mid-table clubs which is a moot argument.

Agreed, funny how the hostility between Serie A clubs trickles down to us fans, and the general friendliness between Bundesliga clubs also trickles down to their fans (AKA BundesLegacy)  

While there surely have been certain cases where teams would just roll over when Bayern comes along and wants their players (back then us with van Buyten, Leverkusen with a zillion guys and most recently Gladbach with Dante e.g.), I generally feel that this phenomenon is overstated.

Take Mandzukic, they just paid what he was worth at the time - maybe even a little more. Nobody could know he would turn out to become as important as he did. Mario Götze simply had an exit clause in his contract, he could choose whatever club he likes. Lewa on the other hand only wanted to go to Bayern no matter what, so keeping him one more year can almost be seen as an achievement.

And as said, who really cares about mediocre-decent players making stupid choices like Schlaudraff, Rode etc..

*EDIT* just remeberd Gomez if somebody brings that up - he cost a shitload of money at the time that no foreign club would have paid fo shizzle.

Yeah Gomez was like 35m, lol.

And mind you, this was at a time where you couldn't be worth more than 8m if your name didn't sound latin.

Not surprised,there will always be some or the other excuses lined up when we're arguing this debate.

Plus it also helps that Bayern are the sole elite 'brand' in the Bundesliga i guess.Everybody in the league only wants to join Bayern.

VivaStPauli wrote:And mind you, this was at a time where you couldn't be worth more than 8m if your name didn't sound latin.

But Gomez' name is latin

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:And mind you, this was at a time where you couldn't be worth more than 8m if your name didn't sound latin.

But Gomez' name is latin

I owned myself hard, there.

I meant: at the time you didn't see big transfer sums being paid for players that weren't Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, or from South America.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

VivaStPauli wrote:And mind you, this was at a time where you couldn't be worth more than 8m if your name didn't sound latin.

But Gomez' name is latin

Guess why Bayern paid 35 mio

I give Bayern credit to be honest. It's genius. Germany too, because the league itself has found a way to insulate themselves from the lure of the Premier League.

Now, if every single person in their upper management would simply shut it. Because when you're far and away the most anti-competitive club in the world, it's difficult not to hate you when you can't shut up about how much other people spend.

But alas, they're German so they can't help it  

yeah, 35m was ridiculous crazy money for Gomez, we couldn't believe it at that time   

and then Louis benched him for pretty much a whole year lol

but imo that was a character forming experience for him, and for some reason it made me really grow fond of him.

Well Louis didn't just bench him an entire year, he was also injured for half of that.