Is Juve a top team now?

some of you guys can be delusional, i hope more ppl post on this thread

Buffon not world class? pirlo bein bench player? chiello sucks? LOOOOLLLL OU MAI GA! (oh my god)

dude, Barzagli has been a relevation! he cost 300,000 cuz his contract was expiring in summer. His positioning and defensive abilities are top notch. Plz show more respect to a player who has 1 world cup, 1 german league with wolfsburg and a couple of titles with Juventus.

He was a late bloomer like Luca Toni

Somewhere in between...

Not too fond of ranking but Barzagli has been a top 10 performer in the CB position this season. If one wants to be generous, you can put him in top 5 but I would disagree.

Only Juventus and Italians/Italian NT fans would think that highly of Licht. He does his duties well enough for Juventus though...

According to Juve fans, they had 4 world class (Barzagli winter transfer), and 2 "arguable" world class players on the team when they finished 7th place in Serie A and crashed out of Europa League in the groups.

Bravo.

Swanhends wrote:According to Juve fans, they had 4 world class (Barzagli winter transfer), and 2 "arguable" world class players on the team when they finished 7th place in Serie A and crashed out of Europa League in the groups.

Bravo.

As an Inter fan, you should know better than anyone else that great players with a terrible manager don't take you very far.

To be fair Bhends, Real Madrid fans thought Ramos was World Class and 2 years ago, some thought Xabi was as good as Xavi (if I remember the thread correctly).

Juventus are a top team simply because they're a team, it doesn't matter if you play with eleven mediocre players on the field! As long as the players complement each other, fit the system and play as a team.

Doc wrote:To be fair Bhends, Real Madrid fans thought Ramos was World Class and 2 years ago, some thought Xabi was as good as Xavi (if I remember the thread correctly).

2 years ago Ramos and Xabi had just won the WC, finished 2nd in the league, and went to the CL Semi-Finals

Not quite the same as finishing 7th in the league and getting eliminated in the Europa league groups without notching a single win in a group with Lech Poznan and Red Bull Salzburg...

Doc wrote:Somewhere in between...

Not too fond of ranking but Barzagli has been a top 10 performer in the CB position this season. If one wants to be generous, you can put him in top 5 but I would disagree.

Only Juventus and Italians/Italian NT fans would think that highly of Licht. He does his duties well enough for Juventus though...

I'm sorry but clearly you don't watch Licht. Because he's not even Italian he plays for switzerland. You can't judge a player you know little/nothing about.

And swan you're saying one bad season 3 years ago under a bad manager is more relevant when ranking a player than 2 great seasons in the past 2 years under a very good manager?

@Tom @7amood

I don't care if your manager is a chimpanzee, if you really had 4 WC players and 2 arguable WC players, you wouldn't finish 7th in the league or get embarrassed in the EL

Perhaps some of your players started taking HGH or sold their souls for increased skills between then and now to cause such a dramatic transformation, but I find it more likely that you are overrating some of them individually

Juve is a product of synergy: The whole is greater than the sum of the parts by themselves

Yoy're kidding me right?

Marchisio was far from WC then
Bonucci was also a far cry from what he is now.

We never had Lichtsteiner
We never had Pirlo
We Never had Vidal
Buffon was injured mostly after surgery
Barzagli wasn't a started

Not to mention the team had the likes of Aquilani, Marco motta and Grosso. There you are then, when we finished 7th we only really had Chiellini starting that was WC. Not 4 people. Not even close.

So Bhends here is what I understand from your questionable logic.

Andrea Barzagli, the "journeyman" who was by far the Bundesliga's defender in Wolfsburg's title winning season, a underdog Wolfsburg who had no chance of winning before they actually won on to win it?

Kompany- You mean the Kompany who was destroyed 2 years in a row during Champions League not to mention any team who possess' a solid forward with tricks to which Kompany struggles against? Watch SOTON, Spurs, United, Liverpool, etc all having Kompany look like the chump CB he is.

Nastasic, a man who was barely even commended (frankly he sucked) in his Fiorentina days, has one good season and is above Barzagli?

Ramos? Who is criticized near every week for blunders and complete lack of intelligence within their back line? On what basis?

Varane? Oh yes you name another rookie who has had half a season of performances yet blunders v Galatasaray, being raped v Dortmund and minor struggles v mid-table La Liga teams is enough to be even above Barza right?

Hummels? Who has effectively been outshone countless times by Subotic and exposed for his defensive frailties? Was it because he is a playmaker from the back? Have you seen his mistakes within Bundesliga?

Rio Ferdinand.....I hope this is not serious. This has got to be a joke.

So here is Barzagli the Bundesliga defender of the year with an underdog, a man who has had two brilliant seasons at Juventus, been spotless for Italia in helping lead them to the final, and excellent within the Champions League, isn't world class.

And here you go commend Ramos for his world cup despite playing RIGHT-BACK while in CB he has been as disastrous as Pique during some games and a highly questionable Euros. So I guess Jordi Alba deserves to be the best Left-back right? Or Fernando Torres?

You count Juventus losing in the Europa League despite:

-A different manager which means
-A different system & formation
-A completely different squad bar Cheillini and Buffon
-No Conte
-A different era

No but I guess since they lost in Europa League that means Cheillini, Buffon and Juventus are not world class right?

So basically Lichtsteiner who has been nothing short of fantastic two seasons in a row for Serie A and this season in Champions League, has TEN right-backs better than him?

So Vidal is better than Javi Martinez despite being a more proven player than him? You know how I love Javi yet what has he done to justify superiority over Vidal?

Of course you and Jibs point out Buffon isn't world class despite having 2 errors in the past year. Lets just forget his importance for the backline, the amount of times he did save Italia and Juventus, and his all around superiority to any GK. But because he is old and competition is fierce, he is not world class. Van der Saar

Or Cheillini who garners praise for carrying Juve's backline on his back pre-conte, being a tower of insurmountable defensive ability during Conte and for Prandelli of Italia.

Leo Bonnuci who has been Italia's best CB for over a year, being a defensive monster in the back and adding some wonderful plays from the back.

So Pirlo a liability and having to have a midfield "built" around him? Yes cause Clarence Seedorf and Kaka just skip your memory? The side wasn't built around Pirlo until his last year for Milan. First season with Allegri it still wasn't built around him. Last year IT WAS and it failed miserably. Should we just discount his performances for Juve and Italia just yet?

Marchisio, same as above, a reborn player under Conte and Prandelli, yet of course people won't notice given that they either remember the Marchisio of Del Neri and Lippi and discount his big game presences, goals for club and country.

Oh yes, I forgot, Juventus aren't world class with proven players because they play in Serie A and Serie A isn't anywhere near the English Premier League.

We have a classic case of Causation looping correlation with obvious logical fallacies thrust deep within what is just a case of ignorance..or.....

Your bias and prejudice towards anything Italian and Serie A has got to have some limit no?

Ferdinand has been outstanding this season....

I also think your comments on Hummels and Kompany are OTT

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Ferdinand has been outstanding this season....

I also think your comments on Hummels and Kompany are OTT

That's Johnny Evans, of course Bhends ignored that since Rio is living off his past reputation which didn't last long. Rio has been good for the pathetic standards he has set in the past 2 years yet servicable. Hummels? You know I like him yet too many defensive lapses have been made in BuLi and CL to count him even above Subotic.

Kompany? I'm done with him. After his horrific Spurs performance he has gathered to be a CB who has limits, and within those limits he performs yet exposed v better attack, he is clueless.

Arq pretty much going over it in much better detail than I have



Also, I still want to know who our 4 WC players were in the 2010/11 season.


Buffon was recovering from back surgery and storari was our main GK

Chiellini had to cover for the likes of Marco Motta and an inexperienced Bonucci

Marchisio was wasting away playing as a LM in a 4-4-2 and not even close to what he is now.

Barzagli made 15 apps for Juve. Infact, I think he arrived in Winter i'm not entirely sure though. Either way he made 15 apps for us.

Who was out 4 WC players? Motta, Toni, Grygera, Aquilani?


Oh and look at the squad we played in the Europe league with

Cup tied Quag, cup tied Aquilani, No Matri etc. We had Iaquinta upfront ffs but somehow what the likes of Iaquinta done for Juve has a direct effect on the Quality of our current team.

my my arquitecto you have blown me away. im just so lazy to write lon. stuff on my cellphone but you read my mind brother. Barzagli has been top top performer the last 3 years but some ppl take the Fifa stats way too seriously

Kompany has one good domestic season, fails hard in Europe and is better than Barzagli who has been nothing short of world class for Juve for two seasons in the league and in Europe.

Not to mention people say Barzagli was great for Wolfsburg. I didn't watch them more than maybe 4 times so I won't comment myself.

Arquitecto wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Ferdinand has been outstanding this season....

I also think your comments on Hummels and Kompany are OTT

That's Johnny Evans.

Him too but Ferdinand has also nothing to do with past he's been great.

You know me lol unless he's been absolutely brilliant i wouldn't even utter his name as i hate Manc Red with a passion.

I just don't think its that laughable a notion tbh, he has been really really good.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Ferdinand has been outstanding this season....

I also think your comments on Hummels and Kompany are OTT

That's Johnny Evans.

Him too but Ferdinand has also nothing to do with past he's been great.

You know me lol unless he's been absolutely brilliant i wouldn't even utter his name as i hate Manc Red with a passion.

I just don't think its that laughable a notion tbh, he has been really really good.

I wouldn't question your motive behind the statement I just don't agree to that extent. I feel Rio was excellent within the Champions League yet not in the PL as you say.

Matches like Tottenham 2-3, Stoke 4-2, Norwich loss, City first leg, and v Newcastle if not more have convinced me his season has been one of highs and lows, and the brilliant Evans even coming to save his ass in other matches. When he performs he does perform well yet too inconsistent.

What Newcastle game btw? we have been brushed aside pretty easily by them this season.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Newcastle game btw? we have been brushed aside pretty easily by them this season.

4-3 at OT

Can't believe i forgot about that

I have been limited to highlights with that game because i was in Spain at the time so i can't comment.

Arquitecto wrote:Andrea Barzagli, the "journeyman" who was by far the Bundesliga's defender in Wolfsburg's title winning season, a underdog Wolfsburg who had no chance of winning before they actually won on to win it?

Wolfsburg's title was a great achievement, although to praise Barzagli for this great season and then one paragraph later slate Nastasic for "one good season" is a little unfair. Obviously you will point out that Barzagli has had additional good seasons since joining Juve (which is true), at which point I will point out that Serie A is not exactly filled with attacking talent. After Ibra left what remains are Cavani, Di Natale, and El Shaarawy - not exactly a plethora of threatening offensive players in that league.

Arq wrote:Kompany- You mean the Kompany who was destroyed 2 years in a row during Champions League not to mention any team who possess' a solid forward with tricks to which Kompany struggles against? Watch SOTON, Spurs, United, Liverpool, etc all having Kompany look like the chump CB he is.

Oh they were destroyed now? Missing the cut by 1 point in the group of death in the club's debut season in the Champions league is getting destroyed? Well then. Also quite a bit more pressure on Kompany, since he was stuck bailing out Lescott and Kolarov rather than having Chiellini and Bonucci as partners.

As for this season, while there are no excuses for that 1-3 debacle away to Ajax....Destroyed? Have you forgotten that their group consisted of Madrid and Dortmund (Two eventual semi-finalists, one seemingly destined for the final) - and that City played both Madrid and Dortmund extremely closely over the 4 matches?

Additionally, Kompany's weakness against forwards who drop deep is A) Hardly unique and B) No defender is without weakness, so pointing out his is no argument against his status at WC (City best defensive record in the league btw)

Arq wrote:Ramos? Who is criticized near every week for blunders and complete lack of intelligence within their back line? On what basis?

Yeh all Ramos has accomplished at CB is a Euro, 3 straight trips to the CL semi-finals, and a league title...

Whereas Barzagli got embarassed in the Euro final, and has 0 trips to the CL semis

Arq wrote:Varane? Oh yes you name another rookie who has had half a season of performances yet blunders v Galatasaray, being raped v Dortmund and minor struggles v mid-table La Liga teams is enough to be even above Barza right?

I guess I imagined Varane playing excellently against Barcelona, and Madrid having a great defensive record in the league despite being only 19

While he had a poor game against Gala, he was beaten by two pieces of skill by two great players...thats what happens when you are 19

Which of the Dortmund goals were his fault though

Arq wrote:Hummels? Who has effectively been outshone countless times by Subotic and exposed for his defensive frailties? Was it because he is a playmaker from the back? Have you seen his mistakes within Bundesliga?

Hummels is prone to the occasional shocker, but 95% clean and 5% nightmare is far better than can be said for most CBs out there...and no, I have not seen many of his mistakes in the Bundesliga, although no doubt you have .... by the way how do you manage to watch enough football to be an expert in all 5 leagues simultaneously?

Arq wrote:Rio Ferdinand.....I hope this is not serious. This has got to be a joke.

Yes yes everyone knows you hate England...What has Rio done anyway other than be on a team that ran away with the league and looked to be into the CL quarters before being jobbed by the ref...How many people on GL had him in their EPL team of the season? Quite a few IIRC, because he has been great

Arq wrote:So here is Barzagli the Bundesliga defender of the year with an underdog, a man who has had two brilliant seasons at Juventus, been spotless for Italia in helping lead them to the final, and excellent within the Champions League, isn't world class.

While he has been good for Italy, claiming he has been "spotless" is so completely ignore the Euro Final.

As for excellent in the CL, Barzagli was no better vs Bayern than Varane was against Dortmund...

In the first half of the Bayern game at Allianz: Had that awful clearance directly to Robben that he was fortunate Buffon made a great save on. Lost the ball at the back from a Mandzukic tackle where Ribery went on to miss a great chance. Got toasted by Muller which led to him setting up Schweinsteigers shot that went over the corner..

And if I recall correctly it was his man who had the header that led to the first goal in the 2nd leg

arq wrote:And here you go commend Ramos for his world cup despite playing RIGHT-BACK while in CB he has been as disastrous as Pique during some games and a highly questionable Euros.

I didn't commend Ramos for his World Cup performance. I merely said that there was a logic behind thinking Ramos was world class after winning the WC and going to the CL semis the year before

Highly Questionable Euros? Is this the same Euro's where Spain only let up 1 goal the whole time, or is this a different Euros that I somehow missed?

Arq wrote:So basically Lichtsteiner who has been nothing short of fantastic two seasons in a row for Serie A and this season in Champions League, has TEN right-backs better than him?

Notice in the case of Lichtsteiner I specifically said I would ignore because everyone knows I hate that douche..When pressed for further comment I said there were 10 RBs I would choose over him, not that 10 were better...Again, I will gladly admit to my preference to have my Eyelids torn off than see Lichsteiner in an Inter shirt

Arq wrote:So Vidal is better than Javi Martinez despite being a more proven player than him? You know how I love Javi yet what has he done to justify superiority over Vidal?

Vidal vs. Martinez is the debate I will concede, I personally think Martinez is better but the difference is not so large that it is worth continuing to argue over

Arq wrote:Of course you and Jibs point out Buffon isn't world class despite having 2 errors in the past year. Lets just forget his importance for the backline, the amount of times he did save Italia and Juventus, and his all around superiority to any GK. But because he is old and competition is fierce, he is not world class. Van der Saar

I mentioned nothing about his mistakes in this thread. My claim is based solely on the competition at GK. Buffon has been good, as good as some of the other talented GKs across Europe? Not for me.

Arq wrote:Or Cheillini who garners praise for carrying Juve's backline on his back pre-conte, being a tower of insurmountable defensive ability during Conte and for Prandelli of Italia.

I haven't said anything about Chiellini?

Arq wrote:So Pirlo a liability and having to have a midfield "built" around him? Yes cause Clarence Seedorf and Kaka just skip your memory? The side wasn't built around Pirlo until his last year for Milan. First season with Allegri it still wasn't built around him. Last year IT WAS and it failed miserably. Should we just discount his performances for Juve and Italia just yet?

Goodness me that is some revisionist history there. Yes, Milan's midfield was built around Pirlo. The only way that team worked was by flanking him with two runners who covered up for his defensive weakness...Just like Juve, just like Italy at the Euros

Arq wrote:Marchisio, same as above, a reborn player under Conte and Prandelli, yet of course people won't notice given that they either remember the Marchisio of Del Neri and Lippi and discount his big game presences, goals for club and country.

Thats the thing though...Marchisio isn't "reborn", he hasn't undergone some total transformation...He is playing better now than he used to because he has better players around him, not because he has morphed into some Elite player...He is a great complement to other great players, not a great player himself

Arq wrote:Oh yes, I forgot, Juventus aren't world class with proven players because they play in Serie A and Serie A isn't anywhere near the English Premier League.

Have I even mentioned the premier league in this thread prior to this (current) post? Not that I recall, although I am downright shocked that you jumped at the first chance to bash the EPL

Arq wrote:Your bias and prejudice towards anything Italian and Serie A has got to have some limit no?

Perhaps we will someday reach that limit, I suspect around the time we find the limit to your many assorted biases: Pro-Italy, Pro-Spain, Pro-Basque, Pro-Milan, Pro-Liverpool, Anti-EPL, Anti-England etc

Chiellini or Barzagli, sometimes both, could walk into any starting XI in the world.

Pirlo could walk into any starting XI in the world bar Bayern.

Vidal or Marchisio, sometimes both, could walk into any starting XI in the world.

Lichsteiner could walk into any starting XI in the world bar Bayern and arguably Barca.

Buffon could walk into any starting XI in the world bar arguably Bayern and Madrid.

I don't understand why you think its crazy to say all these guys are WC.

Ferdinand had a good season. Arq probably doesn't like his personality or thinks he talks too much on Twitter (all probably correct). Bar my herp derp thinking about Licht's nationality, I stand by my statement. Barzagli has been good for 2 seasons, a top 10 in my book this season and Licht is solid for Juventus but wouldn't be rated that highly by outsiders...mostly.

I'm not too sure what is Arq's beef with Varane though. Yeah, Real Madrid fans talk a lot of nonsense but bias aside, he has been good for them and has done as well as he possibly can.

Wolfsburg's title was a great achievement, although to praise Barzagli for this great season and then one paragraph later slate Nastasic for "one good season" is a little unfair. Obviously you will point out that Barzagli has had additional good seasons since joining Juve (which is true), at which point I will point out that Serie A is not exactly filled with attacking talent. After Ibra left what remains are Cavani, Di Natale, and El Shaarawy - not exactly a plethora of threatening offensive players in that league.

A CB is not judged by how he performs v individual talents as that is fullbacks, yet how they collective organize their defence, assort themselves within their zones, react to attacking situations and their composure during the heat of attack. All of which Barzagli has performed superbly within. Italian teams are designed to defeat their mostly leak-free defences to which is a constant recycling of tactics and methods to unlock that defence. Post 2010 this feature is even more apparent.

Nastasic cannot be compared given he has proven little outside his season at City while Barza's proven performances are obvious.

Oh they were destroyed now? Missing the cut by 1 point in the group of death in the club's debut season in the Champions league is getting destroyed? Well then. Also quite a bit more pressure on Kompany, since he was stuck bailing out Lescott and Kolarov rather than having Chiellini and Bonucci as partners.

As for this season, while there are no excuses for that 1-3 debacle away to Ajax....Destroyed? Have you forgotten that their group consisted of Madrid and Dortmund (Two eventual semi-finalists, one seemingly destined for the final) - and that City played both Madrid and Dortmund extremely closely over the 4 matches?

Additionally, Kompany's weakness against forwards who drop deep is A) Hardly unique and B) No defender is without weakness, so pointing out his is no argument against his status at WC (City best defensive record in the league btw)

I mentioned Kompany, not City.

Watch his performances v Dortmund, Ajax both legs and Real Madrid twice where he was thoroughly humiliated by CR to which was shocking. He is a good CB and had a fantastic season last year (aside from his shocking EL performances) yet saying he is superior to Barzagli is not convincing considering tactically and what has been proven, Barza is a superior CB.

Their defensive records also is contributed by Lescott's excellent season, their fullbacks (Micah & Zabaletta) and even Kolarov who only has turned to shit this year. If anything, Nastasic has bailed him out too many times for him to hold his head up high in boasting on his performances. He struggles v forwards he rely on guile and trickery rather than pace and power.

Yeh all Ramos has accomplished at CB is a Euro, 3 straight trips to the CL semi-finals, and a league title...

Whereas Barzagli got embarassed in the Euro final, and has 0 trips to the CL semis

Does that reflect on his defensive performances individually? I think not. Ramos did not stand out as a defensive exception within his trips to the semi-finals. Which is why this forum continually criticizes Ramos for his defensive frailties. He was excellent within the La Liga last year yet defensively exposed within the Champions League to which he received criticism for his marking and positioning.

Espana? Lets admit, the attacks within the Euros simply weren't good enough to continually thwart the Spanish midfield which is essentially their best form of defence. It was a Euros to which attacks did not expose the Spanish midfield enough to bypass their core to actually test Ramos and Pique. When it was bypassed, Ramos was shaky and suspect, Pique even worse. His best performances were v Ireland, Portugal. Vs Italia (group stage) Croatia and at times v France he was an absolute horrorshow as we were lucky not to concede. There is a reason why he is a joke on this forum now, sadly.

And Barzagli was in a team that could reach the CL semi-finals? He carried their defence on their back compensating for Zaccardo and that other CB within the CL (group stages) and Bundesliga.

Euro Final? 3 of the goals came from the fullback errors while the 4th on a counter exposed by Alba on the wing to which Barza was off yet still he was the best CB for Italia in that game. Italia was down to 10 men majority of the game, switched formation pre-match and tired after 1 in a half days of rest to which is their weakness. Lets not discount all his other performances.

A teams success does not directly reflect on an individuals success as this misconception largely is attributed onto CBs for some reason despite not being reflective of their ability and performances. Midfield, tactics and collectivity is usually ignored.

I guess I imagined Varane playing excellently against Barcelona, and Madrid having a great defensive record in the league despite being only 19

While he had a poor game against Gala, he was beaten by two pieces of skill by two great players...thats what happens when you are 19

Which of the Dortmund goals were his fault though

I don't criticize Varane yet only when it comes to putting him on the same pedestal as Barzagli when he has had only half a season of recognition.

Playing v Barca isn't enough as Botia, Flanio and Rodriguez all perform regularly v Barca yet do f**k all outside those teams. Proving yourself v one form attack does not launch you into the upper echelons of centrebacks especially above ones who are proven like Barza. This doesn't mean I do not rate him highly as I definitely do, and say he will be the best CB in the world soon. There is a reason why I call him heir to Nesta

Dortmund? His stonewall pen not given through his trip on Reus. 1st, 3rd and 4th goal to which both him and Pepe were at fault. Pepe was worse yet Varane not a victim of bad defense, but a bad individual performance himself.

Hummels is prone to the occasional shocker, but 95% clean and 5% nightmare is far better than can be said for most CBs out there...and no, I have not seen many of his mistakes in the Bundesliga, although no doubt you have .... by the way how do you manage to watch enough football to be an expert in all 5 leagues simultaneously?

Occasional is an understatement given the shockers he has had this season. His shocker v Hamburg, Shaktar 1st leg, Schalke, Hamburg again, Leverkusen, Malaga, and Dusseldorf just off the top of my head. He stays since outside his lapses he is a very good CB and contributes abundantly to their attack.

Expert? I watch Dortmund Bayern and Augsburg from Bundesliga. I don't watch much PL bar big games and the occasional match outside Liverpool. Serie A and Ligue 1 the only leagues I watch in dedication. And they do have different timings. How is that relevant?

Yes yes everyone knows you hate England...What has Rio done anyway other than be on a team that ran away with the league and looked to be into the CL quarters before being jobbed by the ref...How many people on GL had him in their EPL team of the season? Quite a few IIRC, because he has been great

Hate England? On what basis? Just because I don't rate the PL and make fun of their culture? I gave nothing but respect to them in the Euros and support and English team. Not rating a league doesn't equal me hating them. Not a convincing claim.

Once again, Man United's running away with the lack comes down to their lack of competition (City is LOL), their overall tactical set-up and RvP. Ferdinand has been good yet Evans on another level.
Tottenham 2-3, Stoke 4-2, Norwich loss, City first leg, and v Newcastle and Braga just an example of his errors throughout the season. He has been good by the standards he recently set for himself yet been rather inconsistent this season within some games. Cannot be considered above Barza.

Team of the years? Well by that logic Barza is rated top 3 by almost everyone here along with team of the year twice in a row.

Notice in the case of Lichtsteiner I specifically said I would ignore because everyone knows I hate that douche..When pressed for further comment I said there were 10 RBs I would choose over him, not that 10 were better...Again, I will gladly admit to my preference to have my Eyelids torn off than see Lichsteiner in an Inter shirt

Apologies for misunderstanding and I agree with this. I absolutely despise Lichtsteiner.

I mentioned nothing about his mistakes in this thread. My claim is based solely on the competition at GK. Buffon has been good, as good as some of the other talented GKs across Europe? Not for me.

Who has really deserved to be considerably above him this season? Last season and this season (1st half especially) he has been vital for Juventus' defence to which his intelligence and lightning saves have saved Conte's team many times. Best this season? Maybe not yet he remains world class and not just out of his name.

Goodness me that is some revisionist history there. Yes, Milan's midfield was built around Pirlo. The only way that team worked was by flanking him with two runners who covered up for his defensive weakness...Just like Juve, just like Italy at the Euros

No, this is a misconception due to the conception that Gattuso is partnered with Pirlo whereas Ancelotti's system was built far more around Seedorf and Kaka (and Costa when played) then Pirlo. We tried to build the system around him in 2004 and that was a failed experiment. Only Gattuso was tasked to protect him yet even that was exhagerrated. Italia he has a more advanced position whereas the team would be built more around DDR then Pirlo as DDR's play and positioning to his team mates was clear evidence v Germany, Ireland and Croatia. Only v England Pirlo was dropped deeper. Marchisio was assigned to cover his defensive frailties only in the group stages until his position completely changed post group stages, DDR not assigned either.

For Juve? You are correct as the midfield is built purely around him.

Thats the thing though...Marchisio isn't "reborn", he hasn't undergone some total transformation...He is playing better now than he used to because he has better players around him, not because he has morphed into some Elite player...He is a great complement to other great players, not a great player himself

He has though. Under Lippi for Italia and the clowns that managed him pre-Conte, he was assigned as a Mezz'alla, SS, winger, wide forward yet not the position he currently plays now. 3-4-3 he was a wingback while 4-3-1-2 (his bogy formation) a mez'zalla to which he struggled. Under Conte he has a free box-to-box role down the centre which has released his excellent traits. I disagree that he is a compliment to players. His goals, assists, passing, off the ball movement and many games this season and last in which he has single-handedly carried Juve at times is a testament to how different of a player he is now. You've never rated him I've noticed yet what I see is quite a complete player whose contributions for his team finally are being noticed, if not before.

Perhaps we will someday reach that limit, I suspect around the time we find the limit to your many assorted biases: Pro-Italy, Pro-Spain, Pro-Basque, Pro-Milan, Pro-Liverpool, Anti-EPL, Anti-England etc

Pro, yes. Yet not anti-PL and England. I simply don't enjoy English football and dislike Roy Hodgson. I only criticize the PL for its football and methods used to launch themselves into elites. I have shown little bias towards my allegiances bar Basque to which I admittedly I am biased. For my teams and countries that is not the case, case in point Espana above along with Ramos to who I am a fan of. We've had this debate too many times now.

Conclusively I have mentioned in chat that you are a brilliant poster and footballing mind, yet like Mole for Liverpool (not recently though) I take your opinions on Calcio or anything Italian not to seriously and with a grain of salt, something to which I tell you directly. It is not a deficiency as we all hold our own, like me.