Re: Summer Transfer Window 2012-Rumor Crazy Months!

by stevieg8 Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:51 pm

RedOranje wrote:You would think Adam would be high on the list of potential sales, as his penchant for dawdling on the ball and trying to play a hollywood ball make him a poor fit for the type of game Rodgers wants the team to play. That said, Brendan may want to see if Adam can adapt before showing him the door. There is talk of Fulham wanting Adam in exchange for Dempsey (with cash going one way or the other).

The Carroll rumours, as I've previously said, were the media making a mountain of a mole-hill, so to speak, and have since died down. I'd rather keep Carroll than Adam, honestly, as we have plenty of options in CM but relatively few up top and I think Carroll has greater potential to be an influential player for us over the long run. That said, I'll trust Rodgers' judgement on the situation.

Exactly. Could not agree with this entire post more.

by Art Morte Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:47 am

RedOranje wrote:
The Carroll rumours, as I've previously said, were the media making a mountain of a mole-hill, so to speak, and have since died down.

I wouldn't say so, Newcastle have made at least one (loan) offer, West Ham have said they'd be interested, too. There are clubs who are willing to take Carroll and since no one from LFC has come out and said he's not for sale, that means to me that we're ready to let him go if the price is right. Which is sad, imo.

by Kick Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:05 am

A dempsey Adam straight swap would be great. I don't think either player is worth more than the other tbh.

Dempsey, Allen and Borini would largely be a great window. Just a DM would be needed. Any targets for DM?

by Fahim89 Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:11 am

Judging from yesterday's game the only thing missing was FINISHING in the final third. . . still a prominent problem. However, none of the usual strikers were present. I hope Borini would be a solid solution to that!

by Red Alert Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:19 am

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:15mill for Allen If this transfer goes through for that amount of money then we didn't learn shite from last summmer

Disaagree. He is class. He is already more established than Henderson, and I don't think we'll pay 15m. Skysports had us 16m or 20m for Henderson where we only spent 13m.

Gerrard, Aquilani, Lucas, Allen, Henderson, Shelvey, Suso and Spearing will be immense. [BR's approach is different to Kenny's, Lucas won't really have that same role. Allen could also play the role Kenny made Lucas do so we'll be fine.]

RedOranje wrote:

"I love Borussia, but I cannot rule anything out," Grosskreutz told Sports Image. "It would be a dream to play for Liverpool at some point. England is a dream for any footballer."

Grosskreutz's comments as reported yesterday. Very odd set of quotes. I can't tell if it's a "come-and-get me" plea or not.

He's said the same about Arsenal. I'd bring him here, but I think he using us to get a better deal from Dortmund.

by Red Alert Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:20 am

Fahim89 wrote:Judging from yesterday's game the only thing missing was FINISHING in the final third. . . still a prominent problem. However, none of the usual strikers were present. I hope Borini would be a solid solution to that!

We only played the reserves to be fair.

Borini, Suarez, Gerrard or Carroll didn't feature.

by Red Alert Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:21 am

Kick wrote:A dempsey Adam straight swap would be great. I don't think either player is worth more than the other tbh.

Dempsey, Allen and Borini would largely be a great window. Just a DM would be needed. Any targets for DM?

What's the point?

We're getting rid of a player that can't play the style BR so why bring in another player that can't?

by RedOranje Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:57 am

Are you talking about Dempsey? Because he certainly can play a short, quick passing game.

by Fahim89 Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:10 am

ynwa wrote:
Fahim89 wrote:Judging from yesterday's game the only thing missing was FINISHING in the final third. . . still a prominent problem. However, none of the usual strikers were present. I hope Borini would be a solid solution to that!

We only played the reserves to be fair.

Borini, Suarez, Gerrard or Carroll didn't feature.

As i said none of the usual strikers were there . . Smile

Btw just to add to another point of yours I have to agree with Red that Dempsey definitely knows a think or two about our new system . . .

by Fahim89 Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:27 am

A very insightful article on the qualities of Allen in comparision to top PL midfielders. . . :bow:

Lots of statistics are displayed in full without care for how much time players have spent on the pitch for their respective teams. It’s a personal preference but we like to use the “minutes per” metric so the players stats are divided by the minutes they’ve played to then be able to compare against their rivals. Below we have created three tables; Table 1 compares Joe Allen to a few deep-lying midfielders that were selected by followers of our Twitter account @AnfieldIndex. Table 2 compares Joe Allen to players that can play both as deep-lying midfielders and further forward (again selected by the followers of our @AnfieldIndex Twitter account). Finally Table 3 compares Joe Allen to Liverpool’s central midfielders from the 2011/12 season.

We’ve decided to highlight the Best and Worst of the stats in the tables below to show a little more analysis and make it possible for readers to compare quickly.

“I like to control games. I like to be responsible for our own destiny. If you are better than your opponent with the ball you have a 79 per cent chance of winning the game…for me it is quite logical. It doesn’t matter how big or small you are, if you don’t have the ball you can’t score.” (Rodgers 2012)

We’ve listed the quote from Brendan Rodgers above to explain a decision in not rating the Pass Direction statistics below. We found that the pass direction statistics were a little difficult to rate as best and worst. These are mainly open to perception as some are of the opinion that passing sideways helps a team to keep the ball and build. As the quote states the philosophy for Swansea last season was to keep the ball and build so can you really mark players down for playing a particular style?

This could also apply to a few other statistics but we found they were easier to rate but the pass direction ones can be a little controversial. We’ve listed them anyway and highlighted the text in highest-lowest for those that wish to view them.

Joe Allen Compared to Deep-Lying midfielders

Table 1 shows Joe Allen in a positive light against the deep lying midfielders. Joe’s ground duel, tackling and passing stats are impressive here and he’s topped in these categories. The real star here is Mikel Arteta – he’s contributed a lot in an attacking sense to Arsenal from deep-lying midfield position. If you look closer at the stats Joe Allen comes 2nd or 3rd in a lot of the other statistics displayed which is a credit to the player – it was a bit of a surprise that he was 2nd in the creativity statistic here creating every 63 minutes which was better than Carrick, Song (awesome season in terms of assists) and Mulumbu. Joe Allen is certainly worthy of being compared to these players.

Whilst Mulumbu may come off worst here in terms of being bottom in certain statistics it’s worth noting that he finishes 2nd and 3rd a lot in most of the other statistics. He’s also worthy of being placed in this comparison. Michael Carrick also sees a lot of red here however the table indicates that whilst tackling may not be his better skill – his passing is top notch as he’s close to passing the ball every minute (averaging over 80 passes per game).

Joe Allen Compared to all rounded midfielders

Table 2 again shows Joe Allen in a positive light defensively – he comes 2nd here to Ramires and Cabaye in terms of winning ground duels and tackles (topping the mins per tackle stat) however he’s lagging behind in the shooting aspect and doesn’t score often enough neither does he attempt shots enough. Whilst Table 2 indicates where Joe Allen falls behind in terms of the attacking aspect these stats can be a little unfair as Joe drifted further back once Gylfi Sigurrdson was bought by Brendan Rodgers last season. It’s still a good little comparison to have against some of the better players in central midfield.

Ramires and Scholes impress the most in Table 2, Ramires topping defensive stats as well as attacking stats showing his versatility as a box-to-box midfielder. Paul Scholes also shows why his impact drove Manchester United very close to their 20th league title. Paul Scholes was a revelation in his 1169 minutes last season and that is a very difficult thing to say for a Liverpool die-hard!

Joe Allen Compared to Liverpool’s Midfield

So how does Joe compared to Liverpool’s midfielders? Again defensively he’s 2nd to Lucas on a lot of the ground duel/tackle stats and he wipes the floor with the midfield in terms of passing (thanks in-turn to Brendan Rodgers’ philosophy). In an attacking sense he’s better than everyone apart from Steven Gerrard. Yes he shoots less often than all of them apart from spearing however he scores a goal more often than the others (not really hard to do though!), his shot accuracy is higher and shot/chance conversion is more than double of Liverpool’s midfield apart from the Liverpool and England captain.

Joe Allen good enough for a Top Club?
We’d like to think Joe Allen is good enough to play in a top side. He’s certainly combative enough, he seems to be better than what Liverpool have for players that sit next to Gerrard and we believe he could cover well for Lucas Leiva too. At 21 years of age he has a lot of his better days ahead of him and if he’s rivalling some of the players above in terms of statistics now then what will he achieve in his peak? He can find a pass, he is more creative than most of the Liverpool players so we feel he can add a lot to the side.

We’ll leave you with a question that you can answer on the comments below; Is he worth £15m?

by Red Alert Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:42 pm

RedOranje wrote:Are you talking about Dempsey? Because he certainly can play a short, quick passing game.

You may have a different opinion to me, but I see Dempsey as the perfect player that plays in the counter team - I've seen nothing from him to suggest to me that he'd prosper in a possession type side.

by donttreadonred Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:00 pm

ynwa wrote:You may have a different opinion to me, but I see Dempsey as the perfect player that plays in the counter team - I've seen nothing from him to suggest to me that he'd prosper in a possession type side.

I can see what you mean if you're limiting your viewing of him to predominantly Fulham games over the past season and a half. He has often been asked to play a CF/SS role in which he's expected to get on the end of chances instead of create them. However, when playing with Donovan in the national team, and in his original role of LAM/LW he has demonstrated his ability to string together short interchanges and link-up play, especially in the final third. I think what you're referring to is more a result of the system and assigned role at Fulham than his ability.

I actually don't think he has the pace to be great in a strictly counter-attacking team, unless he is played as a SS without defensive duties.

by Le Samourai Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:44 pm

But it's within Fulham's system that most of his success has come, why would he be bought to play a different role.

The way I see it it's going to be an interchangeable front 3 with Borini and Suarez there...he just needs to be able to space the field by occupying the wings, but other than that's he's going to be more of a scoring than creative winger.

by BeautifulGame Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:23 am

From Times

Michael Laudrup has conceded that he will be powerless to prevent Joe Allen from leaving Swansea City in the event of the Wales international setting his heart on a move to Liverpool. The Swansea manager is waiting for the midfield player to inform him where he feels his future lies amid strong interest from Liverpool, who are willing to pay in the region of £10 million.

Swansea are seeking a £15 million fee for Allen, but Laudrup’s admission that the 22-year-old will effectively decide his own fate has increased the likelihood of the move taking place. “You can’t say yes or no without having spoken to the player,” Laudrup said. “If he says, ‘I want to stay, I’m so happy here’, then he stays.
“But if we get a very big offer and the player wants to leave, what is there to keep him here? So the most important thing is always the player.”

Seems like we could get him for around 12 mil which would be great imo.

by CBarca Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:50 am

Le Samourai wrote:But it's within Fulham's system that most of his success has come, why would he be bought to play a different role.

The way I see it it's going to be an interchangeable front 3 with Borini and Suarez there...he just needs to be able to space the field by occupying the wings, but other than that's he's going to be more of a scoring than creative winger.

I think Dempsey has been very successful with the US National Team and the position he plays there is different to what he plays with Fulham. He's one of the main creative forces up front for the US as well as one of the most important players and I don't think Dempsey would have any problem with passing or creativity in the system Brendan Rodgers would employ. He can also play the goalscoring winger to boot.

I think Dempsey can be a success in both roles, which is why I think he would be a fantastic buy for Liverpool.

by Art Morte Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:50 am

BeautifulGame wrote:From Times

Michael Laudrup has conceded that he will be powerless to prevent Joe Allen from leaving Swansea City in the event of the Wales international setting his heart on a move to Liverpool. The Swansea manager is waiting for the midfield player to inform him where he feels his future lies amid strong interest from Liverpool, who are willing to pay in the region of £10 million.

Swansea are seeking a £15 million fee for Allen, but Laudrup’s admission that the 22-year-old will effectively decide his own fate has increased the likelihood of the move taking place. “You can’t say yes or no without having spoken to the player,” Laudrup said. “If he says, ‘I want to stay, I’m so happy here’, then he stays.
“But if we get a very big offer and the player wants to leave, what is there to keep him here? So the most important thing is always the player.”

Seems like we could get him for around 12 mil which would be great imo.

Another CM doesn't really turn me on.

Plus we are facing a financial burden. Last season we sent some big-earners away on loan, like Joe Cole and Aquilani, but they're all back in the squad as of now. CM is a well covered position for us and I wouldn't sign anyone in that area before successfully offloading at least one player from there.

Don't forget that we posted a £49m loss in our previous financial year. Also let's not forget in what state we were just a couple of years ago, nearing administration. I know this stuff is boring to many fans, but to me it means that I really, really would not add another CM to our squad.

by BeautifulGame Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Who exactly we have as a CM who can partner Lucas? For me we may have too many CM players but not much quality.The FA final against Chelsea was the perfect example of how awful our midfield can be at times.

Also Allen can cover for Lucas as DM from what i have read.If we bring in Allen and offload Adam and Cole dont think we will have too many in midfield.

And if are thinking of being financially sensible it should be about how to get rid of players who offer minimum value as squad players and being on high wages(Carroll , Jeo Cole , Adam Carragher etc) and not players who could come to us as first choice players and contribute a lot in manager's view.

by Art Morte Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:28 pm

If we first offload players then I'm all for signing new faces.
But offloading players is easier said than done, especially those who are on high wages.

by Guest Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:40 pm

I think our transfer activities will take up a notch in a couple of weeks and we'll see 2-3 out goings after the team comes back from US.

ps. Pacheco is like a new signing, I was very impressed with him vs Toronto

by donttreadonred Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:17 am

Pacheco against Toronto was encouraging. He looked energetic and eager to impress. The concerning thing was that he was too often forced wide and settled for a late cross into the box... I know it's preseason, but it was still only Toronto FC. At other times he looked creative and capable of slicing open the defense. In short, I had trouble assessing just how he would perform this season. Need to see him again...

From what I saw in the friendly, I'm beginning to understand the interest in Joe Allen more and more. I'm almost convinced that if he comes, it will be to play in the same position as Lucas (ie the deepest cm role). He's not exactly Lucas, but from I hear he is defensively solid (more so than Adam) if a bit undersized. Moreover, he is an excellent distributor of the ball. After the interval, LFC lined up with Shelvey in that position before Lucase replaced Adjoran. For me, this signifies several things. One: Rodgers rates and trusts Shelvey in multiple positions in midfield. Two: the DM position will be more than a simple midfield destroyer. I knew the DM would be involved in the initial distribution, but with Shelvey there it nearly turned into a trequartista-esque role. hmm

There are currently hints (from Ben Smith at the Times) that we're waiting for the Carroll issue to be resolved before making any big moves. The rumors surrounding Dempsey are that Adam could be included in the deal, opening up the potential for Allen to come. (I doubt Cole will actually line up in midfield. It appears Rodgers wants him as on of the wide forwards.) Actually, I'd love to send Adam to Swansea for Allen straight up too. But, like Art, I do think someone needs to leave before we sign up another cm. (Oh, and it had better be less than 15 mil. Preferably, it would be considerably less... I'm thinking 8-12.)

by RedOranje Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:30 am

I think the talk about Carroll's future holding up other deals has to do with the fact that he would have to be replaced. Rodgers would be a fool to go out and drop £15m (anything over 10m, considering current options) on a CM then sell our main CF and not have the proper cash to sign the replacement that he (Rodgers) wants. If Carroll stays, which I think he will, then the transfer kitty can go toward signing whatever other targets the manager has without that concern.

by Red Alert Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:46 am

donttreadonred wrote:
ynwa wrote:You may have a different opinion to me, but I see Dempsey as the perfect player that plays in the counter team - I've seen nothing from him to suggest to me that he'd prosper in a possession type side.
I can see what you mean if you're limiting your viewing of him to predominantly Fulham games over the past season and a half. He has often been asked to play a CF/SS role in which he's expected to get on the end of chances instead of create them. However, when playing with Donovan in the national team, and in his original role of LAM/LW he has demonstrated his ability to string together short interchanges and link-up play, especially in the final third. I think what you're referring to is more a result of the system and assigned role at Fulham than his ability.

I actually don't think he has the pace to be great in a strictly counter-attacking team, unless he is played as a SS without defensive duties.

That's purely judged on Fulham. I havn't seen him at all play for America.

You don't need pace to be a great counting attacking team. You just need to move into space and exploit the defence. Maxi is a great example of this.

Don't see why we should play a player that plays in an alternative system and then just nurture him into a new one - especially at 29. That is again, my opinion of course.

by Red Alert Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:56 am

Art Morte wrote:Another CM doesn't really turn me on.

Plus we are facing a financial burden. Last season we sent some big-earners away on loan, like Joe Cole and Aquilani, but they're all back in the squad as of now. CM is a well covered position for us and I wouldn't sign anyone in that area before successfully offloading at least one player from there.

Don't forget that we posted a £49m loss in our previous financial year. Also let's not forget in what state we were just a couple of years ago, nearing administration. I know this stuff is boring to many fans, but to me it means that I really, really would not add another CM to our squad.

We're not that bad financially. We're actually pretty stable. We do have the likes of Cole, Adam, Downing and Carragher leeching off our wage bill and it needs to be resolved as they don't simply offer enough to compliment the contract they signed, which is understandable.

Kuyt and Maxi were both passed their best, and Maxi was homesick. And as much as I like Kuyt, I don't think he would of suited the style BR wants to implement and with 80k a week, I could see why he was sold.

[The 49m loss recorded last year was based on the 2010 season... where H+G were still in charge.]

Personally feel Allen will be a great signing. He'll want wages of under 50k, is the exact player BR wants and it's a perfect FSG "moneyball" player. Young, potential and will help our team as soon as arrival. He can play with and without Lucas [unlike Adam] and is the perfect pass and move player - and very rarely goes missing.

A midfield of Stevie, Aqua, Lucas, Hendo, Allen, Shelvey and Spearing* is definitely up there as one of the best and with potentailly 70 games to play, they will all feature. Don't forget, we were loaded with midfield options last season, and injuries killed our season.

*I'd get rid of Cole and Adam.

by Red Alert Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:57 am

Schweini wrote:I think our transfer activities will take up a notch in a couple of weeks and we'll see 2-3 out goings after the team comes back from US.

ps. Pacheco is like a new signing, I was very impressed with him vs Toronto

Hopefully reaches the potential he was once hyped for. Was class with the reserves and I hope he can bring that spark into the first team.

by Art Morte Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:52 am

ynwa wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Another CM doesn't really turn me on.

Plus we are facing a financial burden. Last season we sent some big-earners away on loan, like Joe Cole and Aquilani, but they're all back in the squad as of now. CM is a well covered position for us and I wouldn't sign anyone in that area before successfully offloading at least one player from there.

Don't forget that we posted a £49m loss in our previous financial year. Also let's not forget in what state we were just a couple of years ago, nearing administration. I know this stuff is boring to many fans, but to me it means that I really, really would not add another CM to our squad.

We're not that bad financially. We're actually pretty stable. We do have the likes of Cole, Adam, Downing and Carragher leeching off our wage bill and it needs to be resolved as they don't simply offer enough to compliment the contract they signed, which is understandable.

Stable as in 'steadily posting losses', yes.
The part in green is easily said, but how is it going to happen? Who is going to take those players even on a free and pay them the wages they are currently on?

Kuyt and Maxi were both passed their best, and Maxi was homesick. And as much as I like Kuyt, I don't think he would of suited the style BR wants to implement and with 80k a week, I could see why he was sold.

[The 49m loss recorded last year was based on the 2010 season... where H+G were still in charge.]

That loss was for Summer 2010 - Summer 2011. FSG bought Liverpool FC in October 2010. H & G were not in charge of that season. But the big write-off resulting in the 49m loss was a one-off stadium plan cost from H & G's era - but then again, we posted 43m player sales profit from that season and that is also exceptional. We will post a negative result next time around, too.

Personally feel Allen will be a great signing. He'll want wages of under 50k, is the exact player BR wants and it's a perfect FSG "moneyball" player. Young, potential and will help our team as soon as arrival. He can play with and without Lucas [unlike Adam] and is the perfect pass and move player - and very rarely goes missing.

A midfield of Stevie, Aqua, Lucas, Hendo, Allen, Shelvey and Spearing* is definitely up there as one of the best and with potentailly 70 games to play, they will all feature. Don't forget, we were loaded with midfield options last season, and injuries killed our season.

*I'd get rid of Cole and Adam.

IMO we should look at Allen like "if we get rid of a CM player, let us then buy Allen." Not like "let's buy Allen and see if we can offload somebody".

by Fahim89 Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:19 pm

Honestly i really hate this when a discussion of us being "Financially struggling" arises . . cause in no way are we struggling. . The 49m loss we incurred the cost of letting go Roy Hodgson and his team for whom we had to pay for the entire year plus our debts came down from more then 200m to 49m. Many top clubs have debts or losses far far above 100m mark. So this discussion about financially weakened position is totally illogical at this moment when we are actually improving financially as every day goes by.

Secondly transfers should be commanded or decided according to the wants of the manager & who he thinks is suitable for his plans. NOT SELL FIRST THEN BUY! So if a player fits in the system i am pretty sure he will try and get that player. So no point in discussing SELL THEN BUY!

Currently players that are being targeted are more of lower wages because we there is need to cut down on wage bill . . that's it for me its a little to simple to be made complicated. Very Happy

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