Re: NFL Thread

[juventus101]

Brady was superior to Eli in this game by far. A 1 in a million drop from Wes Welker is the main reason the Giants won. A stupid mistake by a 2nd string kick returner (3rd string receiver) got the Giants past the 49ers. And icing the kicker actually working got them past the cowboys. Eli and the Giants were incredible, truly a great team. But without these lucky breaks, they wouldnt have even been in the Super Bowl, much less win it. Though I do thinj you cant take it away fromthem because everyone gets lucky or unlucky at times so they did deserve it, but these lucky breaks also cant be discounted. And Brady completely outplayed Eli in the final.

Btw, I dont have a problem with the Giants. I dont like them, but I also dont hate them, theyre just "whatever" for me. But I do hate how overrated Eli Manning is, especially by some Giants fans I know.

[MJ]

If you're open to friendly and knowledgeable debate then I suggest you not litter every one of your posts with derogatory terms describing the other's opinion. In an actual debate, you attack the facts supporting one's argument. That's it. lol.

If you're not open to Welker dropping a pass he'd never drop being bad luck then that's you and that's what it comes down to.

Not trying to be your friend, but when you open a debate that you want to keep neutral, try not to call everything the other say 'hilarious' and that you 'laugh out loud' at their opinion etc.

It's very snobby and I don't care to debate with people like that. No point in it.

[Guest]

I'll refrain from using words like "hilarious" and "laugh out loud" if/when I feel your argument is logical (clearly I didn't feel that way when debating with you.) Saying you watched highlights to judge who played better was funny to me; you're ignoring all the other plays that led up to those instances of "bad luck". Welker dropping a key pass isn't bad luck to me, I think he'd be the first to admit that. Did you think it was bad luck that the Patriots cause a fumble on that 2nd Giants drive only to have the play called back due to 12 men on the field? I consider that a lack of composure; calling things like that bad luck is taking the blame off your team and placing it elsewhere.

A football game consists of offense, defense and special teams, all those things come into play. Do yo understand how important the Giants punter was to that game? I just feel you Patriots bias is ridiculous, that's all. I also thought it ridiculous for you to ask for a rematch with a better receiving core and defense, what kind of a fan are you? You live and die by your team, you don't hate on your defense and wide receivers after the game is over, you guys had a chance to win and didn't take advantage.

I was a neutral fan watching this game and I'm just calling things as I see them. I don't really like when people knit-pick 3-4 plays when the average football game consists of 60-70 plays per team; each and every play matters. Brady forced a pass in the 4th quarter that led to an interception and I'd attribute that safety to Steve Weatherford and the Giants defense. I just don't like that you've ignored other plays in the game and chose to only look at the plays that effected your team. There was a 3rd and 1 play with 4:40 to go in the second quarter and Boothe got called for offensive holding which forced a 3rd and 11 and basically got the Patriots the ball back; without that mistake Brady doesn't get 4 minutes to drive his team down the field. You won't see everything by watching highlights and when I debate I put in a lot of work, which is why I get so intense and passionate.

What you see as snobby, I see as confidence in my arguments. Sorry you feel that way, but I ask that you look at the whole game and not just isolated incidents. Patriots gave up 400 yards a game this year and their inability to stop the Giants played a huge role in this game. You've ignored time of possession, which believe it or not was a key factor in that game. Yet I still give the Patriots props for staying in the game, they just didn't make the plays when they needed to and that's what separates the winners from the losers. The last two super bowls Giants receivers made catches that were way more difficult than the pass Welker dropped, I call that skill and concentration, not luck.

Once again, sorry if I've come off a little strong, but I put a lot of work into this debate.

[MJ]

I mentioned watching the highlights and watching the game in it's entirety along with reading articles about it just to make it clear that I know what I'm talking about. You seem to have latched onto that first one to make it seem like I'm an idiot.

Once again you question my integrity as a Patriots fan but I ask you, can a fan not wish the best for their team? I never said I wanted any wide receivers cut, I love Welker and that drop, although disappointing, wouldn't change my opinion of him as invaluable to our team but our wide receiver corp needs strengthening. That being said, I'm well within my rights as a fan to want more, that's what I feel we need, a better deep threat since we don't currently have one beyond Gronk. Our defense hasn't been good all year as you mentioned, so why the hell can't I want a better defense? That could entail a change of tactics! Not of players! So stop painting me to be an imbecilic fanboy just wanting top names and flashy wins, loving and hating players at the drop of a dime because it's making you look presumptuous and foolish.

Nah, what I see as snobby, is again your poor conduct in debating. If you want to improve and exude confidence then there should be no need to attempt to belittle your opponent.

Not one play in the game matters more than the dropped ball. And I see it as poor luck. Not lack of skill or composure or being outplayed. Just poor luck, Welker should never have dropped that ball.

What you call strong is more of what I'd call arrogance.

[dmize]

Brady was superior to Eli in this game by far.

Nah. Brady turned the ball over. Eli didn't. Which was probably the difference in the game. Not only that Eli threw for more yards, had more completions with less attempts and overall just plain had a better overall QBR. And he made the big throw when it mattered(Manningham. Eli was 0-24 or something like that on deep passes to Manningham on the year, he hit the one that counted most though).

[Guest]

Agree to disagree.

This will be my last post talking about this game with you.

Thinking you're an idiot would be quite harsh, I just don't think your football intelligence is very high. Doesn't mean I'm right and you really shouldn't care what I think/feel.

You're more than welcome to want better receivers and a better defense, but to ask for a rematch is childish. The game was played and your team lost, you need to get over that. Chances are you'll get back to another super bowl and we all know Bellichick will probably draft well and make the appropriate changes. You're being quite presumptuous as I never said what I thought you wanted, I'm just going off YOUR words from YOUR post's.

I'd like a rematch with a more talented wide receiver corp and defense thank you very much.

I just feel you wish to have your cake and eat it too...

Our defense hasn't been good all year as you mentioned, so why the hell can't I want a better defense? That could entail a change of tactics! Not of players!

So you're saying Bellichick got the tactics wrong? You need new players on defense, I'd like to think Bellichick did the best he could with what he had to work with.


I believe you also claimed to having the better team, but now I see what you meant by that statement. I can see now you're judging the teams based on one game, that's not really how it works; going into the game most analysts would tell the Giants had the better team and were favorites to win.

I do however, refuse to support the notion that the better team won, which I am comfortably within reasonable parameters of being unbiased.

That comes down to more of a misunderstanding. I thought we were talking about before going into the game, you were talking about just the super bowl.

Not one play in the game matters more than the dropped ball. And I see it as poor luck. Not lack of skill or composure or being outplayed. Just poor luck, Welker should never have dropped that ball.

I completely disagree with that comment, without all the other plays beforehand, Patriots wouldn't be in that very situation. Every play matters and that drop came on a second down, your team still had the opportunity to convert on 3rd down. What Welker should have done and what he would have done 100 out out 100 times (I'm certain you got that line from the commentator) didn't happen and that's just life, get over it. If you ask 100 people about that pass, I guarantee you some will blame Brady and some will blame Welker; I'm more inclined to blaming Welker because he had a good opportunity to catch that ball, but I wouldn't call the execution perfect like you did yesterday.

(Here's an example of you putting words in my mouth.)

It was in his hands, you blaming Brady makes me laugh because Welker had dropped 5 that entire year and this one wasn't one he had to turn back to try and grab.

(This is what I actually said...)

You claimed the execution of the pass couldn't have been better, I say if he lead Welker that play could have been a touchdown. I didn't tell you to say the execution of that pass couldn't have been better, it clearly could have and you seem to be in denial. I already admitted that Welker should have made that catch, but you can't place all the blame on him as he was forced to readjust to the pass.

I think that's the only time I might have been a little harsh. I was discussing that very play with another poster and between the two of us I think we watched that play 60+ times and talked about it for a good 10 minutes and we still had difficulties coming to a conclusion. Although if you read my post (properly) I do say Welker should have caught that.

You also said that Welker didn't have to turn his back, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by turn his back, but take another look at the pass.



The safety (Phillips) is not close enough to make a play on that pass and Brady didn't have to throw it to his back shoulder. Like you said, the pass still hit his hands, but Welker did have to adjust instead of catching it in stride (making the catch more difficult)

You also said and I quote, "Statistically, Brady is the most clutch 4th quarter QB, he was let down by his team." but later said

Nah, I saw something in game saying he was. Since it was 5 am here at the time, I forget which yeah, reduces the legitimacy of my claim but just putting it out there.

I don't just listen to commentators and just believe what they say to be fact, I do my research. Also you ignored dmize's post which showed the actual numbers and proved that Brady's numbers go down in the two minute drill. As opposed to Eli Manning, who has his QBR peak in the 4th quarter (crunch time) and he led his team down the field for touchdowns his both super bowls he played in. Shout out to dmize for that statistics.

Call me arrogant, a hater, a douche, call me whatever you'd like. I'm just confident in what I'm saying and there's no shame in that.

[MJ]

Agree to disagree.

This will be my last post talking about this game with you.

Thinking you're an idiot would be quite harsh, I just don't think your football intelligence is very high. Doesn't mean I'm right and you really shouldn't care what I think/feel.

Maybe my football IQ has been degrading as I haven't been watching nearly as much as I used to in America, been in Lebanon for the last 3 years. That being said, I genuinely don't care what you think/feel as we don't know each other so you're free to feel that way. But I do expect a degree of maturity from someone of such high self-proclaimed caliber in debating. Again, how you handled yourself is not what I'd consider mature or confident but that's you.

You're more than welcome to want better receivers and a better defense, but to ask for a rematch is childish. The game was played and your team lost, you need to get over that.

I feel you're not very understanding. I'm arguing from disadvantaged and shakier ground as my team has just lost their second straight Super Bowl to the same team. Do you think a fan would never want to beat that team again? I accept defeat, but I'll never stop wanting to beat them and bury this skeleton as many other fans and players will too. If you don't get that then there's nothing more I'm willing to say to you concerning that matter.

Our defense hasn't been good all year as you mentioned, so why the hell can't I want a better defense? That could entail a change of tactics! Not of players!

So you're saying Bellichick got the tactics wrong? You need new players on defense, I'd like to think Bellichick did the best he could with what he had to work with.

Did you just completely forget what you said before that? You blasted me for wanting an improved defense, assuming I was angry and spent with our current one for that one game. So I clarified that I wanted an improved defense by any means. Whether that be a change of tactics..or of players...

I believe you also claimed to having the better team, but now I see what you meant by that statement. I can see now you're judging the teams based on one game, that's not really how it works; going into the game most analysts would tell the Giants had the better team and were favorites to win.

No, not really. Performance on Super Bowl Sunday is all that actually matters, and I was saying we were the better team then.

I completely disagree with that comment, without all the other plays beforehand, Patriots wouldn't be in that very situation. Every play matters and that drop came on a second down, your team still had the opportunity to convert on 3rd down. What Welker should have done and what he would have done 100 out out 100 times (I'm certain you got that line from the commentator) didn't happen and that's just life, get over it. If you ask 100 people about that pass, I guarantee you some will blame Brady and some will blame Welker; I'm more inclined to blaming Welker because he had a good opportunity to catch that ball, but I wouldn't call the execution perfect like you did yesterday.

I see you enjoy putting words in my mouth as well. Obviously the buildup matters, I don't know why you assumed I thought it didn't. I said it was the most important play in determining the outcome. Not that it was the only play that mattered. And obviously I heard it from the commentator, even though I never used the words "100 out of 100 times".


And I didn't reply to dmize's comment because I warned that my post about Brady being most clutch was possibly wrong and therefore open to criticism so I don't know how you wanted me to reply to it? By saying "yeah I was wrong." I was willing to accept being wrong when I first said it and I didn't think it was necessary to say anything.



And you shouldn't be ashamed of being confident but you should reassess your tone when debating. Because in actual professional debating, openly mocking or taking a tone of mockery is a serious hit on your credibility and is seen as weak because the best debaters are able to triumph with objective, professional work not personal belittling. That's if you ever want to be a serious debater, and I'm aware that this is an internet forum but you obviously take pride in debating, so a constructive suggestion from a former high school debater.

[Guest]

Did you just completely forget what you said before that? You blasted me for wanting an improved defense, assuming I was angry and spent with our current one for that one game. So I clarified that I wanted an improved defense by any means. Whether that be a change of tactics..or of players...

Our defense hasn't been good all year as you mentioned, so why the hell can't I want a better defense? That could entail a change of tactics! Not of players!

'

Your statements seem to contradict each other, or am I just putting words into your mouth? Also, I didn't blast you for wanted an improved defense, I blasted you for wanted a rematch (if you keep reading this post you'll see that was another misunderstanding.) I thought you wanted this super bowl to be played out again with the Patriots having a better defense and receiving core (what fan doesn't want their team to improve in the off-season?)

I feel you're not very understanding. I'm arguing from disadvantaged and shakier ground as my team has just lost their second straight Super Bowl to the same team. Do you think a fan would never want to beat that team again? I accept defeat, but I'll never stop wanting to beat them and bury this skeleton as many other fans and players will too. If you don't get that then there's nothing more I'm willing to say to you concerning that matter.

Your team was 18-0 going into the super bowl and you were the favorites. The Giants defense came up big and shut down Tom Brady and your offense, which had this deep threat wish you had this year (Randy Moss.) I guess this was another misunderstanding; are you saying you want your team to improve in the off-season and you hope to play the Giants again in the next super bowl? If so, that makes a lot more sense. I thought you were saying you wished you had a different receiving core and defense for a rematch in this super bowl (46.) I honestly think you guys shouldn't have played Grodkowski, it was clear to me his movement was limited and I think he was more of a liability on the field.

I see you enjoy putting words in my mouth as well. Obviously the buildup matters, I don't know why you assumed I thought it didn't. I said it was the most important play in determining the outcome. Not that it was the only play that mattered. And obviously I heard it from the commentator, even though I never used the words "100 out of 100 times".

So the very next play didn't help determine the outcome of the game? Do you see what I'm getting at?

No, not really. Performance on Super Bowl Sunday is all that actually matters, and I was saying we were the better team then.

It depends on what we're trying to argue; I already cleared that one up and said we weren't on the same page. If you need a reminder...

That comes down to more of a misunderstanding. I thought we were talking about before going into the game, you were talking about just the super bowl.

Initially I thought we were talking about who the better team was going into the game, so that's really a moot point. And if we want to discuss who the better team was, I'm still inclined to go with the Giants (that's just a matter of opinion,) no sense in debating that one as we both know where the other stands.

Because in actual professional debating, openly mocking or taking a tone of mockery is a serious hit on your credibility and is seen as weak because the best debaters are able to triumph with objective, professional work not personal belittling. That's if you ever want to be a serious debater, and I'm aware that this is an internet forum but you obviously take pride in debating, so a constructive suggestion from a former high school debater.

I don't want to become a professional debater and you answered my question towards the end of that paragraph. The Administrators always preach that you need to have thick skin when frequenting this forum and while I see your point, you have the option to stop debating with me. I think I even eased up on the tones of mockery after you brought that up.

I'm not personally attacking you, just the points you've brought up in your posts about super bowl 46)

[Ali]

I won 125 dhs on the superbowl so *bleep* yeah

[MJ]

Our defense hasn't been good all year as you mentioned, so why the hell can't I want a better defense? That could entail a change of tactics! Not of players!

'

Your statements seem to contradict each other, or am I just putting words into your mouth? Also, I didn't blast you for wanted an improved defense, I blasted you for wanted a rematch (if you keep reading this post you'll see that was another misunderstanding.) I thought you wanted this super bowl to be played out again with the Patriots having a better defense and receiving core (what fan doesn't want their team to improve in the off-season?)

I see how that could look contradictory. I meant to say Not just of players. As I was trying to stress the fact that I'm not after replacing the entire D. Get me?

Your team was 18-0 going into the super bowl and you were the favorites. The Giants defense came up big and shut down Tom Brady and your offense, which had this deep threat wish you had this year (Randy Moss.) I guess this was another misunderstanding; are you saying you want your team to improve in the off-season and you hope to play the Giants again in the next super bowl? If so, that makes a lot more sense. I thought you were saying you wished you had a different receiving core and defense for a rematch in this super bowl (46.) I honestly think you guys shouldn't have played Grodkowski, it was clear to me his movement was limited and I think he was more of a liability on the field.

Agree, we're a different team with him playing at full capacity.

I see you enjoy putting words in my mouth as well. Obviously the buildup matters, I don't know why you assumed I thought it didn't. I said it was the most important play in determining the outcome. Not that it was the only play that mattered. And obviously I heard it from the commentator, even though I never used the words "100 out of 100 times".

So the very next play didn't help determine the outcome of the game? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Yes, I know I know. But there are plays that are more influential than others. Imo, you catch that, game over. Even if we had one more play after that, we wouldn't have needed it if he'd caught it.

I don't want to become a professional debater and you answered my question towards the end of that paragraph. The Administrators always preach that you need to have thick skin when frequenting this forum and while I see your point, you have the option to stop debating with me. I think I even eased up on the tones of mockery after you brought that up.

I'm not personally attacking you, just the points you've brought up in your posts about super bowl 46)

Even so, just being a better more legitimate debater would require the same credentials. Yes, thank you for chilling on that bit. I obviously do have the option to stop but how simple is it to really walk away when being provoked so? Get me? Wouldn't have mentioned anything about being less condescending if I thought you could afford to be more respectful as I'd be more willing to concede and learn with people who are much more chill. My pride wouldn't allow me to do that with people I found to be rude. Gettt me?




Ali gtfo.

[Ali]

but but but

[Rebaño Sagrado]

Houston Texans Schedule

Sun Sept. 9 MIAMI DOLPHINS CBS Noon

Sun Sept. 16 at Jacksonville Jaguars CBS Noon

Sun Sept. 23 at Denver Broncos CBS 3:15 p.m. :vagi:

Sun Sept. 30 TENNESSEE TITANS CBS Noon

Mon Oct. 8 at New York Jets # ESPN 7:30p.m. :vagi:

Sun Oct. 14 GREEN BAY PACKERS # NBC 7:20 p.m. :vagi:

Sun Oct. 21 BALTIMORE RAVENS CBS Noon :vagi:

Sun Oct. 28 BYE WEEK

Sun Nov. 4 BUFFALO BILLS CBS Noon

Sun Nov. 11 at Chicago Bears # NBC 7:20 p.m. :vagi:

Sun Nov. 18 J'VILLE JAGUARS CBS Noon

Thu Nov. 22 at Detroit Lions # CBS 11:30 a.m. :vagi:

Sun Dec. 2 at Tennessee Titans CBS Noon

Mon Dec. 10 at New England Patriots ESPN 7:30 p.m. :vagi:

Sun Dec. 16 INDIANAPOLIS COLTS CBS Noon

Sun Dec. 23 MINNESOTA VIKINGS FOX Noon

Sun Dec. 30 at Indianapolis Colts CBS Noon

[dmize]

That is a damn tough schedule imo.

I actually like the Jets schedule, tough early but gets easier, but I'm sure we'll manage to lose 6-7 games regardless.

Buffalo Bills
@ Pittsburgh Steelers
@ Miami Dolphins
San Francisco 49ers
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts
@ New England
Miami Dolphins
BYE
@ Seattle
@ St. Louis Rams
New England Patriots(Thanksgiving)
Arizona Cardinals
@ Jacksonville Jaguars
@ Tennessee Titans
San Diego Chargers
@ Buffalo Bills

If I'm being optimistic though I'd say: L's to Pittsburgh, New England(twice), San Diego, Buffalo. I think we match up very very well with San Fran.

[Rebaño Sagrado]

yeah 5 prime time games gonna be real hard

[dmize]

Junior Seau committed suicide. Sad. Most likely he had brain issues from all the hard hits he impacted during his career.

http://www.tmz.com/2012/05/02/junior-seau-dead/#.T6HZZcWE58E

I know when another former NFLer Dave Duerson died(suicide) they examined him afterwards and found neurological disease linked to concussions. Scary shyt concussions are no joke.

[DRK]

Poor Seau he was a fantastic linebacker. And I heard he did the same thing to make sure that examiners were able to look at his brain, I don't expect the results to be any different. Unfortunately I think this is just the beginning of the NFL's problems. Taylor Twellman was interviewed today and he said he knew him in California and when Twellman talked with him about him having a headache from his concussion Seau said he had a headache for years. Its bad news and the NFL really needs to do something about it.

On the draft news I think the Texans did great, Got Mercilus in the 1st round who I think will do great on our d. Helped get our offensive line in check and added a couple wide receivers. And I think getting Crick in the 4th round is a steal if he is fully 100% recovered from his injury, he was projected to go in the 1st round before he got injured.

[Amar]

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww Suggs out for 4-6 months, but says its only a partial tear to his achilles and should be back by October.

I guess this means a bigger role for the rookie Upshaw

[dmize]

Mercilus is just an awesome name tbh

I really liked the Jets draft. Our 1st round pick Coples was a top 10 talent for a long time. His production dipped his SR year so he slipped but UNC in general had a tough year, so hopefully Rex can bring the best out of him.

But the Stephen Hill pick I was most excited about. 6'4 runs a 4.30 '40. I think he'll end up being the 2nd west WR in the draft after Blackmon.

[DRK]

Well Butch Davis knows talent that is for sure, the guy the Rams got last year Quinn looked pretty good and I think Coples was projected as being better than he was.

Georgia Tech WR's seem to be doing really well as of late. Megatron and Thomas in Denver. I could honestly see Hill having a better year than Blackmon strictly because the Jags still are pathetic at the QB spot.

[dmize]

I read today Hill is one of 3 WR's ever to run a 4.30 or less at 6'4 or taller. Randy Moss, Calvin Johnson are the other two.

http://football.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/27104/20120505/freeney_im_not_lebron_trying_to_leave_the_team/
Class move from Dwight.

[DRK]

Dwight has been a pain in my ass for years speaking as a Texan fan but I do have to give him credit for that mind set, he is a great player. I just wonder if the management want him to stay or move on completely from the Peyton era

[dmize]

Less than a month til the season starts, can't wait.

Just finished my fantasy draft:
QB- M.Vick
RB- L.McCoy
RB- M.Forte
WR- Andre Johnson
WR- H.Nicks
WR- D.Bowe
TE- J.Finley
K- D.Bailey
DEF- NYJ

BN- J.Cutler
BN- J.Best
BN- J.Blackmon
BN- M.Crabtree
BN- D.Brown
BN- D.Keller

Beast status I think

[DRK]

'Dre should have a big season for us if he stays healthy and we keep Schaub healthy. Forte also should be a great pick with Marshall taking the pressure off the running game in Chicago. That is a pretty great draft though

[dmize]

Andre Johnson is one of my favorite players to watch, and the Texans, if all healthy should have a big year. Decent shot to get to the Super Bowl even.

And yeah I was pretty happy with how my draft went. I had the number 2 overall pick, Aryan Foster obviously went first(wish I could have got him) so I had to choose between McCoy or Ray Rice.

[DRK]

Still strange that after all the years of being a Texan fan we finally have serious Super Bowl shot. It has been a long road.

I think McCoy should be able to put up big numbers like he did last year

[dmize]

NFL's back. First game of the season, Cowboys beat the Giants. Cowboys D played great. I think their 2 new corners made the difference.

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