Re: The Coronavirus Thread - Part 3

[BarrileteCosmico]

Given that millions of people have died

Mongolia yes and the Syechelles have used Cinopharm aswell as AstraZeneca.

I dont know about Albania, Azerbaijan and the various others without looking into it again.

The reason is unclear and I wouldnt blame these increases in the vaccine alone as we arent seeing this uniformally everywhere (though looking at "expected deaths" vs actual deaths and not seeing the predicted curve is interesting while not proof).

What I will say though is, it is absolutely impossible to definitively say the vaccine is the primary cause for the decline in cases. I would absolutely challenge that. Perhaps it is a contributing factor, but I cant help but notice many want it to be the primary factor (let alone contributing factor) before it actually be proven such.

If you're looking for a definitive cause you won't find it. The world is too messy for that, and we don't get clean data in real time where it's easy to isolate variables.

I think what we can say with some level of confidence, is that in countries where massive vaccination has rolled out with reputable vaccines (az, moderna, pfizer), and people still acted in a socially-distant way, follow epidemiologists advice, etc cases seem to have dropped faster than in those that did not, and many of those have or are returning to a semblance of normality.

[The Franchise]

What you are missing is context and understanding. In Venezuela nothing is reported officially, that is the way of dictatorships and regimes. Its an immense crisis.

And the Seychelles? Mongolia? The various other countries where the vaccine roll out has been followed by an increase in case numbers?

I don't know the details of those places, how they do it or how they report it, a quick check by simply searching for seychelles their reports say that:

Majority of cases come from unvaccinated people
Of those hospitalized, 80% are unvaccinated
"Almost all" of critical cases are from unvaccinated
No patients have died that have been fully vaccinated
57% of doses are from sinopharm, the most common vaccine in the country

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/seychelles-most-vaccinated-nation-on-earth-but-covid-19-has-surged.html

So yeah, doesn't seem unexpected.

Absoute MSM garbage.

Cases on the floor. Vaccine roll out. Cases shoot up.

Conclusion.

"Unvaccinated people's fault"

I mean, you cant make this up really.

[Myesyats]

the executive director of Namibia's Ministry of Health and Social Services released an official letter yesterday that a 62-year old male individual with no prior symptoms of any kind or illness, died a few hours after receiving his first dose of Covid-19 vaccine. The individual got his vaccine early in the morning, and then drove home. When he got home he complained to his family that he didn't feel well, they then took him to the hospital. There they found his blood pressure was high and his oxygen and pulse saturation dropped below normal levels. They seemed to restore him for a while, but then it got worse again... and by 13h33 he was declared dead.

It doesn't make any mention of which specific vaccine it was, but according to my quick research they've rolled out Oxford's AstraZeneca and the Chinese Sinopharm here in Namibia

This kind of thing is just so common (relatively speaking), yet so rarely reported by MSM of course.

Bring these anecdotal cases up to anyone and we are supposed to believe, its all coincidence and not connected to the vaccine whatsoever. Yet, if you die 28 days post a positive PCR, you definitely died of COVID though

How common is it, really ? Who knows if they didnt re-use syringes, for example? Many variables play into that

So far its been 1.5 billion doses (that is 1,500,000,000) worldwide given and how many loosely "related" deaths? A few, probably right ?

[rincon]

And the Seychelles? Mongolia? The various other countries where the vaccine roll out has been followed by an increase in case numbers?

I don't know the details of those places, how they do it or how they report it, a quick check by simply searching for seychelles their reports say that:

Majority of cases come from unvaccinated people
Of those hospitalized, 80% are unvaccinated
"Almost all" of critical cases are from unvaccinated
No patients have died that have been fully vaccinated
57% of doses are from sinopharm, the most common vaccine in the country

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/seychelles-most-vaccinated-nation-on-earth-but-covid-19-has-surged.html

So yeah, doesn't seem unexpected.

Absoute MSM garbage.

Cases on the floor. Vaccine roll out. Cases shoot up.

Conclusion.

"Unvaccinated people's fault"

I mean, you cant make this up really.

Did you click the link? it's reported directly and quoted from their health minister.

You have no interest in actual numbers, science, or solutions. You just stick to a narrative. Why ask questions if you don't want answers?

[The Franchise]

Given that millions of people have died

Mongolia yes and the Syechelles have used Cinopharm aswell as AstraZeneca.

I dont know about Albania, Azerbaijan and the various others without looking into it again.

The reason is unclear and I wouldnt blame these increases in the vaccine alone as we arent seeing this uniformally everywhere (though looking at "expected deaths" vs actual deaths and not seeing the predicted curve is interesting while not proof).

What I will say though is, it is absolutely impossible to definitively say the vaccine is the primary cause for the decline in cases. I would absolutely challenge that. Perhaps it is a contributing factor, but I cant help but notice many want it to be the primary factor (let alone contributing factor) before it actually be proven such.

If you're looking for a definitive cause you won't find it. The world is too messy for that, and we don't get clean data in real time where it's easy to isolate variables.

I think what we can say with some level of confidence, is that in countries where massive vaccination has rolled out with reputable vaccines (az, moderna, pfizer), and people still acted in a socially-distant way, follow epidemiologists advice, etc cases seem to have dropped faster than in those that did not, and many of those have or are returning to a semblance of normality.

No, you will not find it. I agree. Which is why people drawing definitive conclusions bugs me.

Lets not speak about returning to normality, as these are political decisions which are not often/always (depending on your view) guided by any rationale measure. The UK consistently proved this by adding restrictions when case numbers trend downwards and not removing them (or removing them at a glacial pace, despite positive changes).

In terms of case numbers. You can say that with some level of confidence, I cannot. Cases in many players are so low that the false positivity rate of PCR tests are going to cause great trouble in figuring things out. We dont agree on many things on this subject, but other than PCR I think perhaps the biggest is the final conclusion on the agreement on case numbers. We can agree on numbers but have different opinions on what this does or should mean and this may be another example.

I wont go into what countries did what, what they could or should have done when they did or did not in a specific way because we both would be here in all day arguing the finer points. But what I will say is, generally speaking things are following the path of seasonality, which is not at all surprising and could be observed last year.

[The Franchise]

I don't know the details of those places, how they do it or how they report it, a quick check by simply searching for seychelles their reports say that:

Majority of cases come from unvaccinated people
Of those hospitalized, 80% are unvaccinated
"Almost all" of critical cases are from unvaccinated
No patients have died that have been fully vaccinated
57% of doses are from sinopharm, the most common vaccine in the country

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/13/seychelles-most-vaccinated-nation-on-earth-but-covid-19-has-surged.html

So yeah, doesn't seem unexpected.

Absoute MSM garbage.

Cases on the floor. Vaccine roll out. Cases shoot up.

Conclusion.

"Unvaccinated people's fault"

I mean, you cant make this up really.

Did you click the link? it's reported directly and quoted from their health minister.

You have no interest in actual numbers, science, or solutions. You just stick to a narrative. Why ask questions if you don't want answers?

I want answers that actually make sense.

You have not brought me Science, you have brought me MSM jibberish which doesnt explain the question I ask. You think I should take what the health minister says as legit? As if I dont have examples from all over the place, including my own, giving out false, misleading and contradicting information. This isnt science, this is politics.

It is simply not true that that number of people sick are only the not vaccinated.

I mean, think about this logically for a second.

70k people have been vaccinated.

28k not.

8k cases.

I am supposed to believe that suddenly, more than 30% of the unvaccinated are catching cases since the rollout, but not beforehand? It is just pure timing? The rollout happens to take place, cases rises, but there is absolutely no connection? And by the way the non-vaccinated being the people LEAST likely to catch cases to begin with?

Is there any other country which this can be seen. Such fantastic timing but in fact, it is the non-vaccinated population?

I was born at night, but not last night.

[rincon]

Absoute MSM garbage.

Cases on the floor. Vaccine roll out. Cases shoot up.

Conclusion.

"Unvaccinated people's fault"

I mean, you cant make this up really.

Did you click the link? it's reported directly and quoted from their health minister.

You have no interest in actual numbers, science, or solutions. You just stick to a narrative. Why ask questions if you don't want answers?

I want answers that actually make sense.

You have not brought me Science, you have brought me MSM jibberish which doesnt explain the question I ask. You think I should take what the health minister says as legit? As if I dont have examples from all over the place, including my own, giving out false, misleading and contradicting information. This isnt science, this is politics.

It is simply not true that that number of people sick are only the not vaccinated.

I mean, think about this logically for a second.

70k people have been vaccinated.

28k not.

8k cases.

I am supposed to believe that suddenly, more than 30% of the unvaccinated are catching cases since the rollout, but not beforehand? It is just pure timing? The rollout happens to take place, cases rises, but there is absolutely no connection? And by the way the non-vaccinated being the people LEAST likely to catch cases to begin with?

Is there any other country which this can be seen. Such fantastic timing but in fact, it is the non-vaccinated population?

I was born at night, but not last night.

Take a step back and read my post, the link, and/or the report. You are making strawman arguments, inventing points that no one is arguing for.

"You think I should take what the health minister says as legit?"
You are taking the number of covid cases that the health ministry reports as legit, you are taking the number vaccines that have administered as reported by the health ministry as legit, but you are not taking any deeper data they report as legit. Its cherrypicking. Do I know that they are true? no. If we take the number of vaccinations and cases are real, then we should also take the rest of the dataset as real. If we take them as fake, then we should also take the rest of the dataset as fake, and in that case your question is meaningless.

"It is simply not true that that number of people sick are only the not vaccinated."
It is not true, no one said that. They report that 63% of those with new covid cases are not fully vaccinated.

"I am supposed to believe that suddenly, more than 30% of the unvaccinated are catching cases since the rollout, but not beforehand?"
No, and again, no one said that. (8k cases * 0.63)/28k unvaccinated people = ~18%

"The rollout happens to take place, cases rises, but there is absolutely no connection?"
No one said there is no connection. I don't know how they have handled transmission. Has there been a change in measures? has there been a change in activity? a normal response is that once a lot of vaccines are administered lockdown measures are relaxed and transmission is expected to increase. Was this case in Seychelles? don't know, do you?

[Hapless_Hans]

I've had my first Moderna shot last Friday, just a bit slight pain in the upper arm for a day, similar to other vaccinations, and very slight headache on the day. Nothing else

Friend of mine got Astrazeneca the week before and had 2 days and 3 nights of 39 degrees fever and lying flat, which is pretty fucked up I have to say. My cousin was floored sick for a whole week after Astrazeneca. One mid 40s, one early 40s.

[The Franchise]

Rincon, So I need to take everything the health ministry would say as true? If I believe one aspect, its impossible to not believe another?

It is impossible that they have identified and problem but are incorrect (intentionally, or not) about the cause of the problem?

If I dont believe that, then that is cherry picking? Absolutely rubbish.

It is very possible they are right about the numbers of cases (I have my objection to cases anyway, but I am only following their own logic on that) in raw number, but completely wrong (again, intentionally or not) about the finer details,


I dont know what is true or not, but what I do know is that by their own words "cases" have risen following the vaccine roll out.

The reason for that, they dont even know and certainly cannot be explained with that pathetic reasoning you gave and I most certainly do not know.

If you think 18% of the cases are among the unvaccinated, then good for you. I think that is is completely stupid, but more important than my opinion, it is not proven. The same minister said many of the cases (IIRC he said 30%) are vaccinated people.



lockdown measures are relaxed and transmission is expected to increase. Was this case in Seychelles? don't know, do you?

Absolute rubbish. Measures have been relaxed in many many countries with no resulting increases in your precious cases in many countries.

But look, if you believe whatever you want, we can disagree and move on. I have no interest in changing your mind, I simply objected to your original statement and that hasnt changed.

Seychelles is one place but there is at least half a dozen others.

[The Franchise]

the executive director of Namibia's Ministry of Health and Social Services released an official letter yesterday that a 62-year old male individual with no prior symptoms of any kind or illness, died a few hours after receiving his first dose of Covid-19 vaccine. The individual got his vaccine early in the morning, and then drove home. When he got home he complained to his family that he didn't feel well, they then took him to the hospital. There they found his blood pressure was high and his oxygen and pulse saturation dropped below normal levels. They seemed to restore him for a while, but then it got worse again... and by 13h33 he was declared dead.

It doesn't make any mention of which specific vaccine it was, but according to my quick research they've rolled out Oxford's AstraZeneca and the Chinese Sinopharm here in Namibia

This kind of thing is just so common (relatively speaking), yet so rarely reported by MSM of course.

Bring these anecdotal cases up to anyone and we are supposed to believe, its all coincidence and not connected to the vaccine whatsoever. Yet, if you die 28 days post a positive PCR, you definitely died of COVID though

How common is it, really ? Who knows if they didnt re-use syringes, for example? Many variables play into that

So far its been 1.5 billion doses (that is 1,500,000,000) worldwide given and how many loosely "related" deaths? A few, probably right ?

Its all about relatively speaking. Trying to get a good grasp on how many deaths there have been is for obvious reasons very difficult.

Beyond deaths, there are adverse reactions, some of them very severe and serious.

According to EudraVigliance, in the EU the Pfizer jab has "caused" 5,368 deaths in the EU, Moderna 2,865 and AZ 2,2102 and some serious reactions in each. They cannot say caused and neither can I, the real number is impossible to know. How many would have died anyway? How many are just coincidence? It is not right to blame the vaccine for this.

But my problem is, if you talk about these numbers your some tin foil hat wearing lunatic nutter...meanwhile, every death "WITH" COVID, regardless of if you was a 150 year old and fell off a ladder has to be taken seriously.

[The Franchise]

The Indian variant seems to be worrisome at least. Case numbers have doubled within a week in UK from 520 to 1330, 4 confirmed deaths by now.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57109660

Something I was supposed to mention earlier. Further deception to scare the masses.

The "cases" are largely in Bolton. What they dont mention of course has been a problem with vaccine take up in Bolton.

In response they have ramped up testing in the area leading to the predictable rise in cases. The cases are increasing perfectly in line with the increases in testing.

Now, with cases artificially inflated with false positives they have successfully scared the region into vaccination with even young people lining up around the corner to get jabbed.

Why am I so sure of this?

I recruit nurses for the NHS, specifically in the North West, Bolton included. Am I any busier than normal? Are Bolton calling us because they need more temp staff?

Of course not. The hospitals are no more busy than they were previously. All these cases are not leading to increased hospitalizations in any meaningful way. The cases are largely people perfectly healthy, sitting at home with no issues.

But you know, nowadays we call them cases for some reason.

[El Gunner]

I've had my first Moderna shot last Friday, just a bit slight pain in the upper arm for a day, similar to other vaccinations, and very slight headache on the day. Nothing else

Friend of mine got Astrazeneca the week before and had 2 days and 3 nights of 39 degrees fever and lying flat, which is pretty fucked up I have to say. My cousin was floored sick for a whole week after Astrazeneca. One mid 40s, one early 40s.

yeap... definitely not taking any Covid jab

[Myesyats]

This kind of thing is just so common (relatively speaking), yet so rarely reported by MSM of course.

Bring these anecdotal cases up to anyone and we are supposed to believe, its all coincidence and not connected to the vaccine whatsoever. Yet, if you die 28 days post a positive PCR, you definitely died of COVID though

How common is it, really ? Who knows if they didnt re-use syringes, for example? Many variables play into that

So far its been 1.5 billion doses (that is 1,500,000,000) worldwide given and how many loosely "related" deaths? A few, probably right ?

Its all about relatively speaking. Trying to get a good grasp on how many deaths there have been is for obvious reasons very difficult.

Beyond deaths, there are adverse reactions, some of them very severe and serious.

According to EudraVigliance, in the EU the Pfizer jab has "caused" 5,368 deaths in the EU, Moderna 2,865 and AZ 2,2102 and some serious reactions in each. They cannot say caused and neither can I, the real number is impossible to know. How many would have died anyway? How many are just coincidence? It is not right to blame the vaccine for this.

But my problem is, if you talk about these numbers your some tin foil hat wearing lunatic nutter...meanwhile, every death "WITH" COVID, regardless of if you was a 150 year old and fell off a ladder has to be taken seriously.

You should stop reading R/conspiracy.

Actually covid deaths before reported are first examined for a causal link whereas adverse reactions aren't. Still discrepancies in reporting are expected anyways.

[Duronto-Roddur]

Hello guys. How is the Corona situation in your country? I guess things are pretty good in North America and Europe. Anyway, take care and stay safe.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Argentina today becomes the country with the highest death per capita . And unlike some other bad actors , we had a brutal lockdown, complete with fines for leaving your home , road blocks , permits to be outside , etc. All the while the politicians didn't listen to any of these rules and flaunted their impunity in front of everyone .

And what had our government been doing for the past 1+ years ? Reasonable people may assume things like getting vaccines , providing mass testing , helping small businesses. But no, the number 1 priority of the government has been to reform the judicial branch so that ex President Cristina (and true power in place) can be cleared of her crimes .

[Myesyats]

Same brother same. We're in the dark red community too, and also been fighting about the judicial branch with the EU and CJEU instead of fighting covid. Populism is entertaining and sometimes death is necessary, its a sacrifice we are ready to make, said some minister in his skyscraper somwhere, probably.

[Myesyats]

They should put the vaccine in the bullets. https://t.co/SKlOjNQuDa

— Theo Von (@TheoVon) May 23, 2021

[BarrileteCosmico]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html

Apologies for sharing DM but I've seen this shared a few times already

[CBarca]

Lab leak has always been a hypothesis worthy of looking into. Same as natural origin. Politics made for an ugly early dismissal of it, but science and truth tends to find a way, and we will eventually find out.

Assuming from the beginning that it was from a Chinese lab without evidence is obviously fucking stupid though and I think a lot of people who feel really empowered right about now are feeling good for the wrong reasons. However, those who shut it down right away, without evidence, are also dumbasses.

[Myesyats]

1,5h after my  1st Pfizer/Biontech jab. Feeling a little light-headed, nothing beside that so far. It's an enjoyable experience as it turns out, I quite like having needles stuck into my body by young female doctors. Overall I rate the experience 10/10

[The Franchise]

How common is it, really ? Who knows if they didnt re-use syringes, for example? Many variables play into that

So far its been 1.5 billion doses (that is 1,500,000,000) worldwide given and how many loosely "related" deaths? A few, probably right ?

Its all about relatively speaking. Trying to get a good grasp on how many deaths there have been is for obvious reasons very difficult.

Beyond deaths, there are adverse reactions, some of them very severe and serious.

According to EudraVigliance, in the EU the Pfizer jab has "caused" 5,368 deaths in the EU, Moderna 2,865 and AZ 2,2102 and some serious reactions in each. They cannot say caused and neither can I, the real number is impossible to know. How many would have died anyway? How many are just coincidence? It is not right to blame the vaccine for this.

But my problem is, if you talk about these numbers your some tin foil hat wearing lunatic nutter...meanwhile, every death "WITH" COVID, regardless of if you was a 150 year old and fell off a ladder has to be taken seriously.

You should stop reading R/conspiracy.

Actually covid deaths before reported are first examined for a causal link whereas adverse reactions aren't. Still discrepancies in reporting are expected anyways.

Typical argument of the sheep. I cant explain any of it so it must be a conspiracy.

[El Gunner]

1,5h after my  1st Pfizer/Biontech jab. Feeling a little light-headed, nothing beside that so far. It's an enjoyable experience as it turns out, I quite like having needles stuck into my body by young female doctors. Overall I rate the experience 10/10

lol down bad horny ass

[Myesyats]

Typical argument of the sheep. I cant explain any of it so it must be a conspiracy.

Come on guy. You are better than that. "sheep", really?

There is no reason to question the vaccine at this point. Stop trying to pretend you know better than actual scientists.

Simple explanation: "Based on the data that we have, we assume that the patients died of their underlying disease — in a coincidental time with the vaccination,"
"If the elderly or people with severe pre-existing conditions are vaccinated, there will be a certain number of accidental deaths that occur shortly after vaccination, which cannot be causally associated with the vaccination.
It is statistically inevitable that some people will get sick and die after getting the shot, for reasons that are unrelated to their body's response to the vaccine."

[The Franchise]

I think neither lab leak is clearly the most likely cause. Unfortunately, that connection was tied to Trump's name and therefore was easily and quickly dismissed by most.

But I mean, connecting the dots and its looking extremely concerning. Be it the location of the lab, the gain of function research, the scientists who fell sick or the pathetic WHO investigation. Without proof, it will remain in doubt but at this point people are putting their head in the sand if they aren't at least highly suspicious.



Anway, at least 500k people took to the streets of London last weekend to protest all the various issues, restrictions, passports, government contracts and so on. So its good to see there are still a decent number of people who arent as braindead as reported by the media who insist the protest featuring a few hundred "anti vaxxers".

I am now within the age range to get my 1st experimental jab, which I have of course not responded to the letters and text messages. The media continue to push with talk of a 3rd wave and calls to delay "freedom day", despite zero covid deaths being recorded Monday.

[Myesyats]

1,5h after my  1st Pfizer/Biontech jab. Feeling a little light-headed, nothing beside that so far. It's an enjoyable experience as it turns out, I quite like having needles stuck into my body by young female doctors. Overall I rate the experience 10/10

lol down bad horny ass

It's not like that. I merely meant sexually

[The Franchise]

Typical argument of the sheep. I cant explain any of it so it must be a conspiracy.

Come on guy. You are better than that. "sheep", really?

There is no reason to question the vaccine at this point. Stop trying to pretend you know better than actual scientists.

Simple explanation: "Based on the data that we have, we assume that the patients died of their underlying disease — in a coincidental time with the vaccination,"
"If the elderly or people with severe pre-existing conditions are vaccinated, there will be a certain number of accidental deaths that occur shortly after vaccination, which cannot be causally associated with the vaccination.
It is statistically inevitable that some people will get sick and die after getting the shot, for reasons that are unrelated to their body's response to the vaccine."

Yes, sheep. Because of course you dont respond to what I have said, instead you throw out the same tired conspiracy nonsense.

I dont know more than scientists...who would claim that? I have said nothing that hasnt already been said by people 1,000 times more knowledgeable than anyone on this forum, including imminent scientists.

99% of what I say is interpretation from what extremely credible people have already said. The only difference I see is that the ones I listen to arent profiting in some way from the push of vaccine. Whereas, people like you quote or swear by the info from these kinds of clowns.

There are many many reasons to question the vaccine. Far better and smarter people than myself have done so and so I will continue to. Adverse effects are one of many. But the bigger thing is, why are you concerned by me questioning things?

I dont come here declaring the vaccines are terrible and will do x, y and z. I either pose potential issues, or complain about the difference in reporting standards.

As I already said, when someone has an adverse reaction from the jab. People like you are happy to ignore it and come up reasons why its fine (old age etc) But at the same time, you insist that when someone does 28 days after a positive PCR, it must be because of COVID. Sorry, you cant have both of those options.

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