Re: USA gun violence thread

[Art Morte]

I gotta say, though, that in 9 out of 10 in these shooting videos, the person who gets shot are not doing what the officers are telling them or are even physically resisting them. That's some grade A stupidity on their part.

[Guest]

I gotta say, though, that in 9 out of 10 in these shooting videos, the person who gets shot are not doing what the officers are telling them or are even physically resisting them. That's some grade A stupidity on their part.

Not listening to an officer isn't justification for murder though...

[zizzle]

I gotta say, though, that in 9 out of 10 in these shooting videos, the person who gets shot are not doing what the officers are telling them or are even physically resisting them. That's some grade A stupidity on their part.

It doesnt help when the cups are told to escalate and use excessive force either.

[rwo power]

@Betty
Why "necessary"?

Because its a right granted because the government can't, or at the very least won't, defend the rights of all citizens in this country.

Well, in that case it is pretty much the direct reason for the violence then - you can view it that some black people feel that the state won't defend their rights, and so they arm themselves and defend their rights, which puts fear in the [mostly white?] legal enforcers, who then use deadly force to defend themselves, which makes the affected [usually black] people think that the state won't defend their rights and so on...

[Guest]

@Betty
Why "necessary"?

Because its a right granted because the government can't, or at the very least won't, defend the rights of all citizens in this country.

Well, in that case it is pretty much the direct reason for the violence then - you can view it that some black people feel that the state won't defend their rights, and so they arm themselves and defend their rights, which puts fear in the [mostly white?] legal enforcers, who then use deadly force to defend themselves, which makes the affected [usually black] people think that the state won't defend their rights and so on...

The violence existed before ethnic minorities could have guns.

Getting rid of guns won't have cops, who mostly has racist views, singing kumbaya in the middle of ethnic areas.

[Blue Barrett]

I gotta say, though, that in 9 out of 10 in these shooting videos, the person who gets shot are not doing what the officers are telling them or are even physically resisting them. That's some grade A stupidity on their part.

Yet in cases where white civilians use real threatening force against the cops, they manage to de-escalate the situation and take the person into custody (as they should). So why the use of lethal force when it's a black person? It's crazy to me. At the very least, there's an obvious bias. I posted a video in this thread earlier of a guy who was trying to fight police and even had a machete at some point, he was tased several times and didn't fall. That's a guy that wanted to hurt the cops. Another story I saw yesterday or so on the Huffington Post of a guy who actually had a gun and was shooting at the cops but was still managed to be brought in alive (great, fantastic job! So why not with a black guy too?).

[Art Morte]

I didn't mention skin colour in my post and I don't want to get into speculation about its role.

But I will say that there's this conception born that cops in America are more racist and violent than your average population. What I'd like to know is that is this correct or not? And if it's correct, what explains it? I cannot believe that there's something about the work of a cop that draws racist and violent people into the job. Therefore, I look at the reality of the job, what about the job shapes you? The number of cops in America that are annually killed by gunfire is shocking for a civilised 1st-world country. Shocking. So, put yourself in their shoes. You're a cop and you encounter a person who doesn't obey your orders, who may act threatening, unpredictable. The first reaction we all would have is that we prepare for the worst. "This is it, dozens of cops die on duty every year in our country, this could be my time." Fear takes over. We take no chances. Put me in a cop's uniform into a situation where I believe there's even a 0.1% chance of me being killed and damn right my trigger finger would get light.

Your example, Barrett, of one video of a white man acting hostile and the cops not gunning him down is not enough to suggest there's a skin colour bias, though.

[Unique]

I didn't mention skin colour in my post and I don't want to get into speculation about its role.

But I will say that there's this conception born that cops in America are more racist and violent than your average population. What I'd like to know is that is this correct or not? And if it's correct, what explains it? I cannot believe that there's something about the work of a cop that draws racist and violent people into the job. Therefore, I look at the reality of the job, what about the job shapes you? The number of cops in America that are annually killed by gunfire is shocking for a civilised 1st-world country. Shocking. So, put yourself in their shoes. You're a cop and you encounter a person who doesn't obey your orders, who may act threatening, unpredictable. The first reaction we all would have is that we prepare for the worst. "This is it, dozens of cops die on duty every year in our country, this could be my time." Fear takes over. We take no chances. Put me in a cop's uniform into a situation where I believe there's even a 0.1% chance of me being killed and damn right my trigger finger would get light.

Your example, Barrett, of one video of a white man acting hostile and the cops not gunning him down is not enough to suggest there's a skin colour bias, though.

best post of the thread

[Blue Barrett]

I didn't mention skin colour in my post and I don't want to get into speculation about its role.

But I will say that there's this conception born that cops in America are more racist and violent than your average population. What I'd like to know is that is this correct or not? And if it's correct, what explains it? I cannot believe that there's something about the work of a cop that draws racist and violent people into the job. Therefore, I look at the reality of the job, what about the job shapes you? The number of cops in America that are annually killed by gunfire is shocking for a civilised 1st-world country. Shocking. So, put yourself in their shoes. You're a cop and you encounter a person who doesn't obey your orders, who may act threatening, unpredictable. The first reaction we all would have is that we prepare for the worst. "This is it, dozens of cops die on duty every year in our country, this could be my time." Fear takes over. We take no chances. Put me in a cop's uniform into a situation where I believe there's even a 0.1% chance of me being killed and damn right my trigger finger would get light.

Your example, Barrett, of one video of a white man acting hostile and the cops not gunning him down is not enough to suggest there's a skin colour bias, though.

A few things:

1. The cops in question are by far the minority of cops in America. The vast majority of cops in America are good at their jobs and as straight as a knife. But the bad eggs among them give the rest of them bad names and make communities (especially poor communities susceptible to crime, where they are most needed) lose trust in cops in general.

2. Sometimes, it's not even a case of a racist cop, sometimes it's even a black cop or an Asian cop. The common factor is racially biased profiling. You hear of police departments giving monthly arrest quotas to their cops on patrol (the departments of course vehemently deny this, even though there have been several officers over the years who confirmed it) which they have to meet. So even if there hasn't been much trouble, those cops go into poor neighborhoods to pretty much intimidate civilians and find a reason to lock them up. Why are these quotas given? There are several privately owned prisons in the US. More prisoners = more money for the owners. These owners in turn fund campaigns of politicians that will pass bills that are more likely to put people in jail or they "contribute" to certain police departments and what not. The favor is returned. What's the result of this? The US is only 5% of the world's population but houses 25% of the world's prisoners. They have more prisoners than China ffs!

3. On the killing part, I understand that cops are humans like everyone else but I believe if as a cop, your first instinct is to shoot to kill when it's not clear how much danger you're in, you're not fit to be a cop. Killing should be a last resort. There's a reason they also have tasers. There should be an effort to try to de-escalate the situation first. In contrast, I don't think I've ever seen an officer in the UK with a gun. And they somehow manage to keep peace in society. Granted, there are other factors that play into that (for example, strict gun laws), but I think there's something to be said of how they manage to de-escalate situations. On top of that, US cops de-escalate situations too.....mostly when it's a non-black person(I've noticed they don't readily display violence/hostility towards Asians either).

4. The US is more dangerous because a lot of people have guns. It's understandable if cops are on higher alert because of that. But if people want to complain about cops being unfairly judged as being racially biased, why is it hard to believe that black people are also being judged for being dangerous/hostile before anything even happens? I just mentioned how the cops in question are a small minority of the total cops in America. The black people who fit this description (gang members, etc) are also in the minority. But that doesn't stop 90% of black people from being regarded as the same. You end up looking at a young teenager who's just having fun and assuming the kid must be a drug dealer or something. It's a very unfair situation, to say the least.

Again, let me reiterate that I understand these cops are humans but let me use this analogy; a US soldier who's in the middle east fighting ISIS or any extremist group is also trained to be careful of mixing civilians with extremists. I mean, it would be easy to just go into villages/cities where ISIS is located and shoot everything you see, wouldn't it? Hell, it would be super easy to just drop nukes on villages where these extremists are, wouldn't it? But we have to consider innocent people who aren't part of their madness but have nowhere else to go, right? Not to say there hasn't been cases of collateral damage, but for the most part, these soldiers have managed to carry out their missions without involving innocents. Why can't police do the same? Why is it hard to evaluate a situation and have at least a level of certainty that a person is potentially violent before treating them as threats? Do we have to question the training they receive?

If it's easy for cops to treat white people in poor white neighborhoods without violence then why isn't this the case for black people in poor black neighborhoods? This even extends to black people that are in the middle class, upper middle class and even upper class of society(although less so for upper class) as well.

I think I've already written a post that's too long, so bear with me. And in as much as this post is quite lengthy, I can explain further on any of the points, if you disagree. Of course, I'm not close minded either. Feel free to point out what you think I'm wrong about.

[Unique]

@Blue Barrett

you say police treat young black men as more of a threat than young white men but what are the stats on gun crime. do the stats say young black men commit more gun crimes than young white men. that could have something to do with how they read the situation.

[Blue Barrett]

The stats say black people commit crime at the same rate as white people. They're just jailed more for it. And I'm even talking all crimes in general now. There are stats that say black teens are 18 times more likely to be tried as adults for the same crime than white teens. Why? I have no idea. Even for something like marijuana possession/use, blacks are arrested/jailed at a much higher rate than whites. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

[DuringTheWar]

But I will say that there's this conception born that cops in America are more racist and violent than your average population. What I'd like to know is that is this correct or not? And if it's correct, what explains it?

Well as I've pointed out previously in this thread when the homicide rate of blacks is controlled for they are not statistically more likely to be shot than anyone else.  Incidentally the arrest rate of blacks matches perfectly with the degree to which they are implicated in the crime victimisation survey where victims of crime are asked about the crimes they suffered and the identities of the perpetrators. So they do not appear to be arrested for crimes they don't commit by a racist justice system.

So the notion that the police force have a systemic racism problem is pretty sketchy.

Having said this the relationship between the police and the black community has been fraught with antagonising circumstance.
Here is a cultural manifestation of this relationship:

[Guest]

The stats say black people commit crime at the same rate as white people. They're just jailed more for it. And I'm even talking all crimes in general now. There are stats that say black teens are 18 times more likely to be tried as adults for the same crime than white teens. Why? I have no idea. Even for something like marijuana possession/use, blacks are arrested/jailed at a much higher rate than whites. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

Racism. That is the reason why.

Unless you are white you are viewed as second class by police.

[Blue Barrett]

Wow. Newt Gingrich pivoting so hard. Unbelievable.



Of all people? Amazing. Is this merely election season pandering?

[Blue Barrett]

Same Newt Gingrich who said this while he was the House Speaker (if I'm not mistaken)



Same Newt Gingrich who also called Obama a "food stamp President" and said he embodied "Kenyan anti-colonial behavior".

I can go on and on. I call bullshit. He's trying to win black votes for Trump if he's the VP pick.

[Blue Barrett]

Apparently, one of the shooters (the one that was killed) is a 25 year old army veteran named Micah Xavier Johnson. Sad nutjob said he "hates white people and especially white cops and he got fed up with recent police shootings and he wanted to kill white cops". Disgusting.

At best(which is an almost impossible position to look at it from), it's counterproductive towards the aim of the Black Lives Matter movement and the peaceful discourse and solutions they're aiming for. There's always that idiot. Gutting stuff.

[RealGunner]

This is kinda related to terrorism. Majority of the cops are actually good. This guy simplifies it a bit but he is on the right track

https://twitter.com/Sav_kinnison/status/751343353736884225

However the problem is that the bad cops give all the cops a bad name. Kinda like how some people generalise all muslims to be the same due to some extremists.

[Unique]

just because someone speaks out about Islam doesn't mean they think all Muslims are terrorists.

[FennecFox7]

I didn't mention skin colour in my post and I don't want to get into speculation about its role.

But I will say that there's this conception born that cops in America are more racist and violent than your average population. What I'd like to know is that is this correct or not? And if it's correct, what explains it? I cannot believe that there's something about the work of a cop that draws racist and violent people into the job. Therefore, I look at the reality of the job, what about the job shapes you? The number of cops in America that are annually killed by gunfire is shocking for a civilised 1st-world country. Shocking. So, put yourself in their shoes. You're a cop and you encounter a person who doesn't obey your orders, who may act threatening, unpredictable. The first reaction we all would have is that we prepare for the worst. "This is it, dozens of cops die on duty every year in our country, this could be my time." Fear takes over. We take no chances. Put me in a cop's uniform into a situation where I believe there's even a 0.1% chance of me being killed and damn right my trigger finger would get light.

Your example, Barrett, of one video of a white man acting hostile and the cops not gunning him down is not enough to suggest there's a skin colour bias, though.

best post of the thread

. Considering Europe is nothing like the USA, you two are absolutely clueless. Don't comment on an issue if you live in the UK

[Unique]

true. And unless you are a policeman that's been involved in a shoot out and had a gun pulled on you then maybe no one should comment.

[Blue Barrett]

While Fennec didn't say the right thing, he's not entirely wrong. It's usually wise to seek to educate yourself about the plight of others before commenting on it. Failure to do so will just make you look like an insensitive asshole even if you're not. I don't comment on the immigration situation in Germany or France or Spain because I've never lived in those countries and so I have no right to be quick to judge their people and call them "xenophobic" for not wanting Syrian immigrants and the likes. They probably have legit reasons for their complaints. Reasons I do not know and haven't taken the time to educate myself about through extensive research and also through conversations with citizens of those countries with different perspectives. So I keep my mouth shut about those issues.

I comment on US and UK politics and social issues because I own both those passports and I've lived in both places for extensive periods in my life (currently in the US) and everything that goes on on either side of the ocean affects me one way or another.

Again, it's always wise to seek to educate yourself first. It's annoying when people on top of jumping into such discussions from an ignorant perspective also come in with predetermined notions and are close minded about it.

[Guest]

best post of the thread

. Considering Europe is nothing like the USA, you two are absolutely clueless. Don't comment on an issue if you live in the UK

true. And unless you are a policeman that's been involved in a shoot out and had a gun pulled on you then maybe no one should comment.

Or know loved ones who have been harassed by cops for simply not looking the way the cops feel a person of an area should look.

I've seen my mom, a small non-threatening Japanese lady who was most likely less than 100 pounds at the time, stopped by cops down here for NO reason. I can't even imagine how people who are actively profiled are treated. The cops are biased.

And I mean I know its hard to see if you don't live here. Its hard to separate it. I mean on one side you have the best nation the world has ever seen, and this is objectively true, and on the other side this is a nation with a police force that treats you differently based on your race. Acting like it doesnt exist won't change it, and a big reason why there is a push for officers to LOOK like the people they are policing. It won't get rid of all the issues, but it would go a long way in making a difference.

If a guy is deathly afraid of black people, he has no reason to be an officer in a black area. Period. That goes for everything else to. If you are actively scared of the people you are sworn to serve, then you need a new job.

[Unique]

so what are people in the usa thinking. racist people join the police. or being in the police makes people racist.

[Guest]

Its a blue collar profession. It pulls in blue collar good old boys. Guys who aren't too friendly for people who look differently than them.

A Guy I went to high school got caught racially abusing black people last year. I don't get it at all. Black folks treated this guy, who I was able to spot as a racist on the first day of school freshman year, as good as you could ever expect. Was on the homecoming court. Invited to all the parties...ect ect. He still joined the police and treated them like shit. Growing up in that type of environment still wasn't enough to change him. I really don't have an answer for it.

Are all cops racist? Not at all. Does the police system have a problem with racism? Absolutely. You don't need an advanced degree to become an officer. You don't have to go to a college and study the classics around many different types of people. You can stay in your same town and never leave your comfort zone at all. It shows with the officers.

[Unique]

so what states/towns/citys would you say has the biggest problem with this kind of thing.

[rwo power]

*sighs* People could you please refrain from using full quotes of posts that are right above yours? It makes reading tedious if you have to go through the same stuff over and over again! Thanks a lot in advance!

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