Re: The Annual Arsene Wenger Poll

by MJ Mon May 19, 2014 8:23 pm

Of course, even if we were in the thousands and voted no, it wouldn't change anything. Just gauging everyone's opinion.

If I want Wenger to stay and he leaves, then I hope I'm wrong to have wanted him to stay.

If you want him to leave and he stays, then you hope you're wrong to have wanted him to leave.

That's just wanting what's best for the club, I think we can all agree we want that Very Happy

by SamuelJayC Tue May 20, 2014 9:57 am

I'm completely happy for Wenger to stay, following Saturday. He has proven he can win trophies for Arsenal again - which was always the question. Yes, it's not the Premier League or Champions League, but Arsenal have no divine right to be ahead of a Man City or a Real Madrid.

Despite the sensational weekend - the parade was brilliant, bathing in the London heatwave - as Gazidis said, we must get to back to work today (Tuesday), and that's in the transfer market. Wenger already said he is waiting on Sagna and Fabianski before bringing in players. The keeper is sure to leave, as he confirmed on live TV on Saturday, whilst Sagna seems likely to go, despite the recent "I don't know" quotes from the right-back.

The boss says we "need to bring in 2 or 3 players" in addition to the replacements for Sagna and Fabianski. So, I'm expecting 4-5 players in this summer, possibly more if Vermaelen goes.

A keeper, a right-back, a holding midfielder, a striker and a centre-back seem likely.

Overall, after that defeat to Villa, we've brought in Ozil, beat Spurs 3 times, finished in the Champions League for the 17th straight year and won the FA Cup. For me, it's been a good season. I'm happy. But we must push on, and Wenger is the man to do that. He is Arsenal.

Have a great summer guys. I'm sure the transfer thread will be busy Very Happy

by 1991 Tue May 20, 2014 9:46 pm

The reasons given here for voting yes are 'next year will be different, he has money now, the trophy win will inspire him' Laughing

etc All votes based on wishful thinking. While No votes are based on tangible evidence. Speaks for itself.

by EL Patron Tue May 20, 2014 9:49 pm

doesn't matter

Like i told MJ, a Wenger poll is mandatory for every season regardless of how well we do :coffee:

by MJ Tue May 20, 2014 11:55 pm

1991 wrote: The reasons given here for voting yes are 'next year will be different, he has money now, the trophy win will inspire him' etc All votes based on wishful thinking. While No votes are based on tangible evidence. Speaks for itself.

Tangible evidence:

by 6unner Wed May 21, 2014 1:04 am

1991 wrote: The reasons given here for voting yes are 'next year will be different, he has money now, the trophy win will inspire him' etc All votes based on wishful thinking. While No votes are based on tangible evidence. Speaks for itself.

Has been repeated for years.

by Sri Wed May 21, 2014 6:28 am

Hasn't been repeated in years:

MJGunner wrote:
Tangible evidence:

by Artilleristen Wed May 21, 2014 6:59 pm

srigooner wrote:Hasn't been repeated in years:

MJGunner wrote:
Tangible evidence:

One trophy does not mean wenger has changed

by Sri Wed May 21, 2014 7:29 pm

Artilleristen wrote:
One trophy does not mean wenger has changed

See, I am no Wenger fanboy. I criticize him where it is due, just as I commend him where he's done well.

It may not mean he has changed, but we've just had the best season since 2006. Some credit is in order. (I will rate it higher than 2007-08 and 2010-11, not only because of the trophy but also because the key players have been tied to long term deals; Sagna situation is arguable, but was expected).

by MJ Wed May 21, 2014 7:58 pm

Plenty has changed. We've spent £40million on one player, sold no big players and won a trophy in the space of 9 months. That's why people are hopeful that the trend is upwards. Because it is.

by Artilleristen Wed May 21, 2014 8:35 pm

MJGunner wrote:Plenty has changed. We've spent £40million on one player, sold no big players and won a trophy in the space of 9 months. That's why people are hopeful that the trend is upwards. Because it is.

A lot of fans could see the Ozil purchase as an anomaly, not a new trend, that why I don't believe that he has changed, also winning the FA cup is the barely worth more than the "4th Place" we usually get, in my opinion.

by Chumlum Wed May 21, 2014 8:46 pm

FA Cup, giant transfer of Özil, almost all key players tied to long term contracts, and seven points from the top of the league (by some distance, the closest finish since that nearly-year of '08) = "no tangible change."

Rolling Eyes

Anti-Wenger people are totally entitled to their opinions. And certainly there are a lot of very sound reasons to be critical of Wenger's recent past and skeptical about his future. I can respect someone's stance if they aren't convinced by AW and want someone else instead.

But to characterize the entire debate as a matter of 100% wishful thinking on one side, vs tangible evidence on the other side indicates an abandonment of logical thinking. It's simply unsound. Case closed there.

by urbaNRoots Wed May 21, 2014 8:52 pm

I would've wanted a change this summer but looking at the alternatives I'm not sure they would do much better than what Arséne is doing.

I guess that is a not very solid yes for a definite answer.

by Jay29 Wed May 21, 2014 9:12 pm

A lot of fans could see the Ozil purchase as an anomaly, not a new trend, that why I don't believe that he has changed, also winning the FA cup is the barely worth more than the "4th Place" we usually get, in my opinion.

I think a large portion of the fanbase will disagree with you there. Finishing in the top four didn't get a parade that attracted 250,000 fans, nor has it ever sparked the celebrations we've seen this past week. It's no Premier League or Champions League, but don't underestimate the value of that FA Cup win to the manager, the players and the fans; it's considerably more than any top four finish could ever be.

I would've wanted a change this summer but looking at the alternatives I'm not sure they would do much better than what Arséne is doing.

This is a good point. The absence of good alternatives to Wenger at this current moment in time justifies extending his stay at the club. There are issues with Wenger that winning the cup don't necessarily resolve, but he still does a great job despite that and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone you can hire right now that'd do the same or a better job.

by MJ Wed May 21, 2014 10:29 pm

Chumlum wrote:FA Cup, giant transfer of Özil, almost all key players tied to long term contracts, and seven points from the top of the league (by some distance, the closest finish since that nearly-year of '08) = "no tangible change."

Anti-Wenger people are totally entitled to their opinions. And certainly there are a lot of very sound reasons to be critical of Wenger's recent past and skeptical about his future. I can respect someone's stance if they aren't convinced by AW and want someone else instead.

But to characterize the entire debate as a matter of 100% wishful thinking on one side, vs tangible evidence on the other side indicates an abandonment of logical thinking. It's simply unsound. Case closed there.

+1

Spot on.

I can appreciate valid criticism but when the usual argument has been a lack of spending and trophies and the manager has gone and broken his transfer record three times over and then won the FA Cup, it's hard to see how that can't be used as tangible evidence.

by 6unner Wed May 21, 2014 11:35 pm

GoonerJay29 wrote:
A lot of fans could see the Ozil purchase as an anomaly, not a new trend, that why I don't believe that he has changed, also winning the FA cup is the barely worth more than the "4th Place" we usually get, in my opinion.

I think a large portion of the fanbase will disagree with you there. Finishing in the top four didn't get a parade that attracted 250,000 fans, nor has it ever sparked the celebrations we've seen this past week. It's no Premier League or Champions League, but don't underestimate the value of that FA Cup win to the manager, the players and the fans; it's considerably more than any top four finish could ever be.

Yea did wonders for Portsmouth and Wigan Athletic. Statistically does not really seem to help any if you win the FA cup. Mostly since the top teams really do not seem to take it very serious. Playing more of a youth squad most of the time. Not to mention what 5 of the last 6 managers to win were fired the following year.

Year Winner Results Folowing year
2004–05 Arsenal drop 2
2005–06 Liverpool same
2006–07 Chelsea same
2007–08 Portsmouth drop 6
2008–09 Chelsea up 2
2009–10 Chelsea drop 1
2010–11 Manchester City up 2
2011–12 Chelsea up 3
2012–13 Wigan Athletic relegated
2013–14 Arsenal

by Chumlum Wed May 21, 2014 11:37 pm

I think you may be missing Jay's point a little bit about the FA Cup, 6unner ...

by Jay29 Wed May 21, 2014 11:59 pm

Indeed. I wasn't comparing the two in terms of tangible benefits, but rather what it means to people emotionally. A top four finish would never get the same emotional response from people as winning the FA Cup would, and that's why I feel it's value is much greater; ultimately, this is what you play for in football.

In any case, it's pointless to examine the results of the winner the year after they win the FA Cup due to the sheer number of factors that effect league position. Did winning the FA Cup relegate Portsmouth and Wigan? No, Portsmouth and Wigan were relegated because they had weak squads and not enough money to improve those squads. There's no pattern there, either. Arsenal finished 4th the year after they won the cup in 2005, but they also went unbeaten a year after they won the cup in 2003. City won the league the year after they won the cup. At the same time, they won the league the year after they lost the cup final.

So really, the numbers don't prove anything.

by MJ Thu May 22, 2014 12:34 am

6unner wrote:what 5 of the last 6 managers to win were fired the following year.

Year Winner Results Folowing year
2004–05 Arsenal drop 2
2005–06 Liverpool same
2006–07 Chelsea same
2007–08 Portsmouth drop 6
2008–09 Chelsea up 2
2009–10 Chelsea drop 1
2010–11 Manchester City up 2
2011–12 Chelsea up 3
2012–13 Wigan Athletic relegated
2013–14 Arsenal

Di Matteo won the CL and was sacked anyway, had nothing to do with the FA Cup. Wigan were relegated by the time they won it, Martinez was taken by Everton, not sacked. Mancini wasn't sacked the next season. Chelsea have a pattern of sacking regardless of success.

There's no correlation there at all.

by 1991 Thu May 22, 2014 6:24 pm

I hope things are different but let's be honest, no-one can deny that "things will be different this summer, judge on September 1st" is said every year. Every year we all agree what the team needs, the minimum number of players needed to come in, then Wenger disappoints and the excuses are reeled out.

See you guys on September 1st.

by 6unner Thu May 22, 2014 6:47 pm

1991 wrote:I hope things are different but let's be honest, no-one can deny that "things will be different this summer, judge on September 1st" is said every year. Every year we all agree what the team needs, the minimum number of players needed to come in, then Wenger disappoints and the excuses are reeled out.

See you guys on September 1st.

+1

I am so jaded now by the way Wenger does business I do not expect anything major until after our first couple of games. We will read the rumors that we tried to get X or that Y wants to be a Gunner and a deal is almost done. Then we will see those players sign for someone else. We probably will only see some cheap fringe players or youth prospects until our first couple of games. If we do poorly, people will once again get on Wenger and we will see him buy someone, if they make sense or fill a need is irrelevant. The bigger the splash the easier it will be for everyone to forget we did not fill a need and are going to go with the same deficiencies again.
Put it away and wait until just before the winter window knowing that once again things will change, until they don't. Put it away again until the end of the season then start over.

by Peccadillo Fri May 23, 2014 2:13 am

We will make big signings this year. We need to remember that we are not Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, City. Dont underestimate how difficult it is attracting players that are genuinely better than what we already have - we are not at a stage where we are as attractive to W.C players as the giants. If we can get a Di Maria, Benzema, Mandzukic, Vidal - whoever - at a price that doesn't make you choke on your chicken wing, we will take it - why would you be skeptical of that?

What is certain is that we will undoubtedly sign a striker who is either (theoretically) on par with Giroud, or hopefully of course much better. (Unless we change to two up front and use Walcott and Poldi up front, but thats not likely given our strength in midfield).

The patterns of the past decade are now irrelevant my friend, this was always part of the plan once new commercial deals and paying off the stadium - I dont get why people cant understand this bigger picture? It's unlikely we will ever sign the likes of the Diego Costas or Gareth Bales of this world as we refuse to get drawn into the current unsustainable and volatile circus that is the football transfer market - and I'm proud that our club refuses to. You should be too - being financially responsible is important for football and will be better for us in the long run.

I'm ashamed of all our fans who were chanting to our manager "you dont know what you're doing". Disgusting behaviour aimed at a man whos left nut has put 20X more into this club than any one fan who took part in that nonsense.

by Wilson37 Fri May 23, 2014 2:38 am

yes without a doubt.. but we need to do something differently this summer if we want to challenge for the title in next 2 years..
every year we end the season on a high, absolutely do nothing in summer saying excuses and start the season again as underdogs and overachieve..

by Sri Fri May 23, 2014 8:47 am

Peccadillo wrote:
What is certain is that we will undoubtedly sign a striker who is either (theoretically) on par with Giroud, or hopefully of course much better.

I agree with the rest of your post Peccs, but this is reminiscent of being linked with the Higuains before signing another midfielder and Yaya Sanogo. Razz

by 6unner Fri May 23, 2014 7:00 pm

More controversy, Don't read if you don't want.

Peccadillo wrote:We will make big signings this year. We need to remember that we are not Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, City. Dont underestimate how difficult it is attracting players that are genuinely better than what we already have - we are not at a stage where we are as attractive to W.C players as the giants. If we can get a Di Maria, Benzema, Mandzukic, Vidal - whoever - at a price that doesn't make you choke on your chicken wing, we will take it - why would you be skeptical of that?

This is the exact same thing that we have been hearing for years. We can not compete against Chelsae, Manu, Man C, Barca, Real Madrid, Bayern, PSG etc. Yes we have new deals that give us a large amount of buying power that we theoretically did not have before.
But what has changed?

Peccadillo wrote:What is certain is that we will undoubtedly sign a striker who is either (theoretically) on par with Giroud, or hopefully of course much better. (Unless we change to two up front and use Walcott and Poldi up front, but thats not likely given our strength in midfield).

Most thought that it was certain that we would sign a Striker last summer that was better than Giroud. Someone that would be able to compete at the highest levels. The only thing certain is that we did not. We have always needed a few positions and those are the positions that we never get.

Peccadillo wrote:The patterns of the past decade are now irrelevant my friend, this was always part of the plan once new commercial deals and paying off the stadium - I don't get why people cant understand this bigger picture? It's unlikely we will ever sign the likes of the Diego Costas or Gareth Bales of this world as we refuse to get drawn into the current unsustainable and volatile circus that is the football transfer market - and I'm proud that our club refuses to. You should be too - being financially responsible is important for football and will be better for us in the long run.

We have heard from Wenger and Gazidis for at least the last 5 years about how we have had money to invest in the club. For most of those years the only caveat that we have received from them is that we can not compete with the big clubs for the biggest signings. The Pattern that has been set by the manager and the club. Is that Never once in the past have we ever gone out and brought in anything close to a ready player that will immediately fill in to a position that was needed going into the transfer market. Did we end last summer making a big splash on Ozill. We sure did. Did it take everyone's mind off the Pattern of not reinforcing the positions that we needed. Yes! Was there ANYONE in the world that would have gone into last summer thinking we should get Ozill? Instead of a striker or defensive mid.
As for financial responsibility, The majority of the money the club makes is through it's marketing ventures. I think that we all understand that. Anyone else think that it would have been a better marketing strategy to not be marketing a club that has openly stated that it's goal has been winning the top 4 trophy. Or that we can not compete for the superstars of the world. How much more could our marketing deals have been if we had actually invested in the positions we have needed going back a few years instead of selling our best players and actually gone in and won the EPL or CL.

Peccadillo wrote:I'm ashamed of all our fans who were chanting to our manager "you dont know what you're doing". Disgusting behaviour aimed at a man whos left nut has put 20X more into this club than any one fan who took part in that nonsense.

Unfortunately, when you choose to go into a public position you have to take the good and bad of it. If you constantly go into the season controversially short of the players that many think you need to actually challenge. When you state that getting 4th is like a trophy and that you can not compete. When you do not win, you are going to have to take what you get.

Is it better
To Risk and Fail
or
Fail to Risk and Fail.

by MJ Fri May 23, 2014 8:19 pm

Again, we've signed a £42million player and won a trophy in the space of 9 months. That's what's changed. And the new deals coming in is only further evidence that the pressure is all on Wenger to spend and he will.

by Sponsored content

Should Arsene Wenger be in charge next season?