Messi doesn't need World Cup

From goal.com, words from Gaby Milito:
The former Argentina centre-back has hailed his compatriot's fine performances and feels he is arguably the best player ever.

Former Barcelona defender Gabriel Milito believes that Lionel Messi is the best player in the history of the game even if he never wins the World Cup with Argentina.

The 26-year-old, who recently stated that he dreams of winning Brazil 2014, has often been criticized for his relatively underwhelming performances with the national side, but Milito feels his compatriot doesn't need international success in order to be seen as the best ever.

"It doesn't seem right to me to claim that you have to win the World Cup in order to be regarded as the best ever," Milito told RAC1.

"He just keeps on improving and outdoing himself year after year and that's why he is the best ever for me.

"I simply cannot imagine that there will ever be a player who can do what Leo has been doing on the pitch."

Messi has been in fine form in the opening weeks of the 2013-14 campaign, netting nine goals in six appearances for Barcelona.

I meant to repost this a bit earlier but I just got the chance. I know that this has been an ongoing issue regarding Messi for as long as he has been regarded as a great, especially on the forums old and new. And while a World Cup would be the icing on the cake for Messi or any other professional in the world for that matter I totally agree with Gaby Milito although I know many others will not, especially those who are quick to criticize Messi for any issue at all.

So I just wanted to see what other opinions we have on GL nowadays and this is definitely NOT meant to stir anything up, just to see how you guys feel about Milito's comments and if some of you also think that one can be a true GOAT without a WC, especially in the modern game of football which we see today.

The 'problem' with this topic (not this forum topic, in general this topic) is that in our memory we tend to leave out things. In this topic (on this forum) people will say that Maradona carryed (?) Napoli and Argentina, while this being not true. He was surrounded with great players and he was their leader. Now, with Messi, he has a pretty shit team with Argentina. I dont need him to win the WC to see the fact that he is the most gifted player. Maybe not the best dribbler, not the best goalscorer, not the best playmaker, but surely the most gifted and talented of all.

He doesn't. The world cup is no longer the premier football competition, the champions league is the highest level, hell the world cup ain't even the premier international competition anymore.

Lets look at who the winners, Spain played in the euro's:

Italy, Ireland, Croatia, France, Portugal, Italy

4/6 high quality fixtures


in the world cup:

Switzerland, Honduras, Chile, Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands

3/7 high quality fixtures

Enough said.

THE WORLD CUP IS STILL THE PREMIER FOOTBALL COMPETITION

simple

Collblanc wrote:The 'problem' with this topic (not this forum topic, in general this topic) is that in our memory we tend to leave out things. In this topic (on this forum) people will say that Maradona carryed (?) Napoli and Argentina, while this being not true. He was surrounded with great players and he was their leader. Now, with Messi, he has a pretty shit team with Argentina. I dont need him to win the WC to see the fact that he is the most gifted player. Maybe not the best dribbler, not the best goalscorer, not the best playmaker, but surely the most gifted and talented of all.

With Argentina, Diego was absolutely accompanied by very talented players, no doubt. But with Napoli I don't remember anyone of note (it was before my time as well) so he did lead them to success but it was only two league titles. So while Messi has no mundial, his club career is infinitely more complete than Diego's. Messi has no Mundial, Diego has no CL. So the argument can be a bit unfair at times.

si is it fair for Pele cuz he has 3 Mundials and 2 Continentals ?

And to clarify, I'm not belittling Diego's skills by mentioning that he never won the CL since we all know that he is one of the most talented players of all time. On the same token, Messi shouldn't be looked down upon either because of that one competition that he's yet to win.

aleumdance wrote:si is it fair for Pele cuz he has 3 Mundials and 2 Continentals ?

these arguments can go on for days, but it's hard to compare. Pele never played in Europe. Nowadays would u rate a player as a true goat without never having played in Europe?

1991 wrote:Lets look at who the winners, Spain played
in the world cup:

Switzerland, Honduras, Chile, Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands

3/7 high quality fixtures

Enough said.

And still they lost against Switzerland

barca 2011 wrote:

aleumdance wrote:si is it fair for Pele cuz he has 3 Mundials and 2 Continentals ?

these arguments can go on for days, but it's hard to compare. Pele never played in Europe. Nowadays would u rate a player as a true goat without never having played in Europe?

In Pele's time, South American football was as good as European football.

M99 wrote:

barca 2011 wrote:

aleumdance wrote:si is it fair for Pele cuz he has 3 Mundials and 2 Continentals ?

these arguments can go on for days, but it's hard to compare. Pele never played in Europe. Nowadays would u rate a player as a true goat without never having played in Europe?

In Pele's time, South American football was as good as European football.

That's arguable, but again it's hard to compare because of the difference in eras. Back then, Madrid were the dominating force in the European cup, winning consecutively and in that era European teams also claimed their world cups. But this being the 60s and the football being somewhat similar in terms of quality, it'd make no sense for a South American player to leave to Europe. Nowadays, Europe is king, football is extremely lucrative and travel is easy. Hard to compare.

aleumdance wrote:si is it fair for Pele cuz he has 3 Mundials and 2 Continentals ?

Brazil won World Cup even without Pele (WC62), and he won the other Libertadores starting from the semi-finals. Pele never won a top national league, and didn't prove himself in the Europe.

Diego never won European Cup, nor proved himself in Copa America. And was carried by Argentina to the final in WC90.

Netherlands didn't loose anything making finals in consecutive World Cups with and without Cruyff.

See these things go every way, no player is perfect, you can fault all careers and individuals. Everyone write their own unique history.

I dont think he needs to win the World Cup, but he at least has to carry Argentina to a good run in at least 1 world cup, but would be better when he does it in multiple.

Of course he doesn't need to win it to be the best ever.

Imagine he was, say, from Burkina Faso. They're never going to win the World Cup, but Messi of Burkina Faso would still be the best player the world has seen.

Art Morte wrote:Of course he doesn't need to win it to be the best ever.

Imagine he was, say, from Burkina Faso. They're never going to win the World Cup, but Messi of Burkina Faso would still be the best player the world has seen.

On the other hand, Argentina is a country with an NT strong enough that it could win the World Cup - so Messi should be able to push them to do it, wouldn't you say?

No he doesn't need it..... if you are dominate enough at club level its not a necessity.

People like Maradona and the likes were not as dominate at club level... Zico was better at club level for example( and arguably Platini was as well) so needed the WC to cement their legacy.

Messi is the opposite.... although it can't hurt to win the WC in his arch rivals backyard....

It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT...  no discussion possible.  It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world.  You just have your country.  So your team will always have flaws.  Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna...  probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.

1991 wrote:He doesn't. The world cup is no longer the premier football competition, the champions league is the highest level, hell the world cup ain't even the premier international competition anymore.

Lets look at who the winners, Spain played in the euro's:

Italy, Ireland, Croatia, France, Portugal, Italy

4/6  high quality fixtures


in the world cup:

Switzerland, Honduras, Chile, Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands

3/7 high quality fixtures

Enough said.

Your logic is so flawed i can't even understand how you came about it. That's all got to do with the luck of the draw, nothing to do with how better the euro's are than the world cup, every great team from the euro's plays in the world cup, adding all the other countries from around the world that are great as well makes it the harder competition.

Euro pool play is harder than WC pool play... after that WC is much harder.

Messi won't be generally considered as THE best player ever regardless of him winning the WC or not imo. Maybe if he does win it he will be seen as the best ever in 10 years when memories are still fresh but not in 30-40 years. He will be in the super elite group of players but that's it imo.

sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT...  no discussion possible.  It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world.  You just have your country.  So your team will always have flaws.  Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna...  probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.

Finally, someone who is speaking sense.

IMO he does not even need to win. Give a Cruyff or Zidane 06 performance, take Argentina to the final or win the Golden Ball, that would be enough.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:No he doesn't need it..... if you are dominate enough at club level its not a necessity.

People like Maradona and the likes were not as dominate at club level... Zico was better at club level for example( and arguably Platini was as well) so needed the WC to cement their legacy.

Messi is the opposite.... although it can't hurt to win the WC in his arch rivals backyard....

This.

Let's say Argentina reaches the WC final against Spain. Messi scores a hat trick but Argentina still loses 4-3. Is Messi remembered as the man who scored a hattrick on a WC final or the man who lost a WC final? I think it would be the best.

Also sports the notion of individual players carrying teams is impossible in modern football. Football has evolved to the point where players no longer carry teams, it's part of the reason for the demise of the trequartista. How many teams nowadays are carried by only one person?

I just can't understand how so many people here disregard the World Cup. It makes no sense.

World Cup is the highest thing a player can strive for.

sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT...  no discussion possible.  It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world.  You just have your country.  So your team will always have flaws.  Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna...  probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.

completely agree

FalcaoPunch wrote:I just can't understand how so many people here disregard the World Cup. It makes no sense.

World Cup is the highest thing a player can strive for.

It's the highest in national level, in club level it's Champions League, in individual level it's Ballon d'Or. Then there is also quality and consistency which play part of these legacies.