Messi doesn't need World Cup

Valkyrja wrote:Only good defender Spain have is Ramos on form. They don't even have a striker ffs. Their midfield is the best.
Germany is very balanced and Brazil too.

Portugal ?  2 average midfielders in Moutinho and Meireles, a good winger and the 2nd best player in the world. Average defense, Pepe and Bruno are past it.

Diego Costa says hello

Donuts wrote:

Valkyrja wrote:Only good defender Spain have is Ramos on form. They don't even have a striker ffs. Their midfield is the best.
Germany is very balanced and Brazil too.

Portugal ?  2 average midfielders in Moutinho and Meireles, a good winger and the 2nd best player in the world. Average defense, Pepe and Bruno are past it.

Diego Costa says hello

is it official ?

Spain have a striker - Soldado and Negrito are both very good. That Spain choose not to use a striker in their formation is an entirely different story. Diego Costa is not that big of an upgrade under either one of them.

I agree Messi does not need to win the world cup to be regarded as the best ever, but obviously if he did win the world cup & was either top scorer or player of the tournament (or both preferably) while doing so it would be less question marks against him.

A lot of people (though not as many as Pele & Maradona admittedly) think Johan Cruyff was the best ever player & he never won a world cup... although he did reach the final & his team won the `event` I suppose... and he did win player of the tournament, so yes, if Messi wants to separate himself from Diego, Pele & Cruyff (he`s up there with them already IMO) he`ll probably need to not just win the world cup but be the star performer as well. If that doesn't happen he will always be in the discussion in the top 3 or 4 but likely wont be universally regarded as numero uno.

Of course he doesn't.

let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

FilthyLuca wrote:let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

Haven't watched Argentina the last two years?

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

Haven't watched Argentina the last two years?

all due respect, theres a difference between club football and national team football, and between the talent in the WC and WCQ. you have what, three legitimate teams in conmebol.

and again its the same kind of situation, stacked team that revolves around messi, and its not like they blew everyone away.
Not trying to write it off completely, but its not that impressive.

ive always said give me xavi over messi anyday.

the guy controls the whole game and his passes are like 75% of the goal. its absurd how good this guy is, but because he doesn't score goals, he's rarely given the praise he deserves.
Barca would be shit without him over an extended period.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

Haven't watched Argentina the last two years?

all due respect, theres a difference between club football and national team football, and between the talent in the WC and WCQ.  you have what, three legitimate teams in conmebol.

and again its the same kind of situation, stacked team that revolves around messi, and its not like they blew everyone away.
Not trying to write it off completely, but its not that impressive.

Actually unlike in Europe, every team is legitimate in SA. And not only that, unlike European's, Messi has to travel to completely different environment and time zone to play, so even home games in Argentina are like away games for Messi.

Argentina just qualified as a top of the hardest qualification group to World Cup, and Messi was one of the top scorers of the competition, without the injury would have been.

Messi under Sabella 20 goals and 10 assists in 22 games. I don't think anybody has been as impressive in NT the last two years.

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Haven't watched Argentina the last two years?

all due respect, theres a difference between club football and national team football, and between the talent in the WC and WCQ.  you have what, three legitimate teams in conmebol.

and again its the same kind of situation, stacked team that revolves around messi, and its not like they blew everyone away.
Not trying to write it off completely, but its not that impressive.

Actually unlike in Europe, every team is legitimate in SA. And not only that, unlike European's, Messi has to travel to completely different environment and time zone to play, so even home games in Argentina are like away games for Messi.

Argentina just qualified as a top of the hardest qualification group to World Cup, and Messi was one of the top scorers of the competition, without the injury would have been.

Messi under Sabella 20 goals and 10 assists in 22 games. I don't think anybody has been as impressive in NT the last two years.

point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

FilthyLuca wrote:let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

He would still rape Serie A, Bundesliga, EPL, Ligue 1 no matter which league he goes too.

And he has done fine for Argentina without Xavi and Iniesta, these past few years.

If you're going to use the logic that he needs Xavi or Iniesta to succeed. Than, I guess Pirlo shouldn't be classified as one of the greatest CM's of all time, since he never went to a different league. And he always needed hardworking midfielders beside him, for him to function. Seedorf, Gattuso. Marchisio, Vidal. De Rossi, Perotta/Motta/Marchisio/Gattuso.

For me personally, Messi doesn't NEED to win the WC. However, if Argentina do win the WC, that will help his reputation a lot. Because if you look back, the greatest players all had a WC in there collection of awards. But, that was back then, CL has gotten much more popular to the point that some people are even claiming it has taken over the WC, in terms of quality and prestige.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:all due respect, theres a difference between club football and national team football, and between the talent in the WC and WCQ.  you have what, three legitimate teams in conmebol.

and again its the same kind of situation, stacked team that revolves around messi, and its not like they blew everyone away.
Not trying to write it off completely, but its not that impressive.

Actually unlike in Europe, every team is legitimate in SA. And not only that, unlike European's, Messi has to travel to completely different environment and time zone to play, so even home games in Argentina are like away games for Messi.

Argentina just qualified as a top of the hardest qualification group to World Cup, and Messi was one of the top scorers of the competition, without the injury would have been.

Messi under Sabella 20 goals and 10 assists in 22 games. I don't think anybody has been as impressive in NT the last two years.

point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Here's example of qualification groups with FIFA-rankings:

7 Portugal
16 Russia
63 Israel
109 Northern Ireland
115 Azerbaijan
140 Luxembourg

3 Colombia
4 Argentina
12 Uruguay
17 Ecuador
21 Chile
22 Peru
39 Venezuela
49 Paraguay
64 Bolivia

The Portugal's group has 2-3 legitimate teams out of 6 and Argentina's 7-8 out of 8, and even Bolivia has the hardest home ground to play of any country in the world.

The quality difference is quite obvious.

Casciavit wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:let me see him do all that in another league.

At least on a team without Xavi and Iniesta

He would still rape Serie A, Bundesliga, EPL, Ligue 1 no matter which league he goes too.

And he has done fine for Argentina without Xavi and Iniesta, these past few years.

If you're going to use the logic that he needs Xavi or Iniesta to succeed. Than, I guess Pirlo shouldn't be classified as one of the greatest CM's of all time, since he never went to a different league. And he always needed hardworking midfielders beside him, for him to function. Seedorf, Gattuso. Marchisio, Vidal. De Rossi, Perotta/Motta/Marchisio/Gattuso.

For me personally, Messi doesn't NEED to win the WC. However, if Argentina do win the WC, that will help his reputation a lot. Because if you look back, the greatest players all had a WC in there collection of awards. But, that was back then, CL has gotten much more popular to the point that some people are even claiming it has taken over the WC, in terms of quality and prestige.

your twisting my words abit here.  
first, never said he needed them to succeed, nor to be considered one of the greatest ever.  but to perform that well, he does.
second, like I said, the gap in talent between argentina and the rest of SA is undeniable, so no he doesn't have xavi or iniesta, or players who do exactly what they do, but he does play surrounded with world class talent.
third, Pirlo, does need those players, but look at how many different ones you named.
Plus you have to admit that all those other leagues are much more competitive than Barca and Madrid against everyone else. and play much better defense as well, hed have a lot less time on the ball.

again, its not a matter of if he's good, or one of the best in the game, that's unquestionable, but the greatest ever? I don't think so, especially without a WC win.

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:

Harmonica wrote:Actually unlike in Europe, every team is legitimate in SA. And not only that, unlike European's, Messi has to travel to completely different environment and time zone to play, so even home games in Argentina are like away games for Messi.

Argentina just qualified as a top of the hardest qualification group to World Cup, and Messi was one of the top scorers of the competition, without the injury would have been.

Messi under Sabella 20 goals and 10 assists in 22 games. I don't think anybody has been as impressive in NT the last two years.

point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Here's example of qualification groups with FIFA-rankings:

7 Portugal
16 Russia
63 Israel
109 Northern Ireland
115 Azerbaijan
140 Luxembourg

3 Colombia
4 Argentina
12 Uruguay
17 Ecuador
21 Chile
22 Peru
39 Venezuela
49 Paraguay
64 Bolivia

The Portugal's group has 2-3 legitimate teams out of 6 and Argentina's 7-8 out of 8, and even Bolivia has the hardest home ground to play of any country in the world.

The quality difference is quite obvious.

then we just have differing opinions on quality. i feel like the only reason teams like Peru, and Bolivia, even Venezuela are even competitive is the home field, that ridiculous environment and, and in some cases the altitude difference, the traveling and lodging conditions, external factors. as far as actual squad quality...not so good.

FilthyLuca wrote:point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Paraguay were a penalty away from kicking Spain out of the WC and they would get battered by Armenia?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Paraguay were a penalty away from kicking out Spain out of the WC and they would get battered by Armenia?

yeah that was four years ago. I know they have the exact same players in the exact same place in their careers .  and its not like they basically parked the bus on spain, but whatever.  granted wipe the floor is a little strong, but the message is the same

and they weren't a penalty away from anything, they missed one, spain missed one, and Villa scored a goal.

FilthyLuca wrote:

Harmonica wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:all due respect, theres a difference between club football and national team football, and between the talent in the WC and WCQ.  you have what, three legitimate teams in conmebol.

and again its the same kind of situation, stacked team that revolves around messi, and its not like they blew everyone away.
Not trying to write it off completely, but its not that impressive.

Actually unlike in Europe, every team is legitimate in SA. And not only that, unlike European's, Messi has to travel to completely different environment and time zone to play, so even home games in Argentina are like away games for Messi.

Argentina just qualified as a top of the hardest qualification group to World Cup, and Messi was one of the top scorers of the competition, without the injury would have been.

Messi under Sabella 20 goals and 10 assists in 22 games. I don't think anybody has been as impressive in NT the last two years.

point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Bro, it is the hardest not just because of the quality of the teams but because of circumstances. One day you might be playing away from home in a day with a temperature of 40°c and in the next four days you might be playing on a high altitude.

my point exactly, theyre crap teams, who play completely defensively, and pull out a draw because of the home turf.
its not because its the best competition.  The WC is the best of the best, somewhere field conditions wont save you (generally) and theres no room for a couple off games.

FilthyLuca wrote:my point exactly, theyre crap teams, who play completely defensively, and pull out a draw because of the home turf.
its not because its the best competition.  The WC is the best of the best, somewhere field conditions wont save you (generally) and theres no room for a couple off games.

First of all, it IS the best competition. Just because the home turf plays a role in a couple of teams, it doesn't mean that it isn't the best competition in the world. I am pretty certain that Peru even on a bad day would win against Rep. of Ireland or Armenia.

well then we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

FilthyLuca wrote:point taken about the environment, but I disagree about the quality.  its basically Argentina, Chile, Colombia, and Uruguay.  there may be a couple crap teams in Europe, but the armenias and turkeys and Republic of Irelands wipe the floor with all the others in the SA (on neutral turf of course).

but that's not so much my point, again, WCQ and WC are two very different stages.

Paraguay were a penalty away from kicking Spain out of the WC and they would get battered by Armenia?

Paraguay had the GOAT coach Tata Martino.

I'm pretty sure Armenia/Ireland etc would have a tough time with Ecuador and Venezuela.