Messi doesn't need World Cup

sportsczy wrote:CL is more difficult than WC????  

The WC is more prestigious, but the CL is harder because the quality of football is simply higher. In the WC teams are unbalanced, if a country has an awful GK they can't go out and purchase a better one. There are several super-teams in club football but only one or two in NT football. In the WC coaches don't get to have their team together for 8 months in order to work on what works and what doesn't before reaching a final. They get only 1 month before the WC and during international breaks they rarely get more than 2 days with the full squad to train due to traveling constraints. The standard of coaching is also higher: think of who are the top 5 coaches in the world and how many are coaching at NT football. The fact is that coaches see international football as the final step of their career and only do so when they turn 60+, Mourinho and Pep would not even consider international football at this stage in their career.

RonaldoGreatestEverRM wrote:

eelir wrote:

Ganso wrote:I was going to get in the debate again, but i wont, its impossible to debate considering some people just ignore the fact that lifting a WC is the highest place a football player can be at, (its not even debatable) and fans just ignore it for Messi.Messi is already one of the top 3 players of all time, but he isnt the goat.Pele was a ridiculous footballer and won it,Maradona was a ridiculous footballer and won it, Messi is a ridiculous footballer but still hasnt and therefore he is behind them.

inb4 "by that logic Gerd Muller is better than Messi"

sure Nt football does not have the quality it used to have, but the title is the only thing that people will remember of

Based on your logic there is never going to be a goat from say Albania, because they are so small country that they can never have a team that does something worthy, even though they theoretically can have the best player that ever played the game? I mean how many times in player's career a WC happens?

Messi is NOT FROM ALBANIA. Obviously we would understand that as reason enough!
These messi fans going on crazy hypotheticals to make their point, open your eyes, Messi's got a legit team at argentinia!

Dude I know he is not from Albania, but a player should not be judged by WC to be the greatest. I am not saying Messi is the GOAT. He is well on the way, but IMHO he needs some more years at the top, regardless if he wins the WC. As the WC happens every 4 years, a luck plays a considerable amount in the outcome. Is your team good? How good are the rest of the world? Is your coach good? And a lot of other stuff can go wrong and result in a fluke year. Since this competition happens once in 4 year, a player gets up to 4 chances (more like 3) in his good years to actually show his best, and for such low amount of chances he depends a lot on other factors as mentioned above. Therefore for me, League and CL performance for longer stretch of times gives a better overview on a player.

But I also agree that he has to have a good display in WC in 2014 as he has a good team that is obviously in good hands. So he has to show his brilliant side, but in no way I expect him to win to become a GOAT.

Ronaldo was better in big games? Lol. As Harmonica showed Messi's involvement in buildup and actual play is way higher. Ronaldo is only about scoring. without goals he is not top 10 player in the world

This is the reason why he will not win Ballon dor. In 2008 he was all around good player thats why he won his only Ballon Dor. But he can not do same dribbles and runs in la liga against tight defenses. In EPL almost all games are open and you can play counter attack, ton of space. It suited Ronaldo. But in La Liga he can not do anything except scoring.

Only time i liked Ronaldo was his match against City. Yeah and City is an EPL team. Thats it. In la liga Ronaldo will never be Ballon dor winner. Only just scoring doesnt give you ballon dor

Lol, of course it became Messi vs CR for like two pages. How? CR is good but he'll never be in contention for greatest ever. Ironically if it weren't for Messi, be might've been

BarrileteCosmico wrote:The fact is that coaches see international football as the final step of their career and only do so when they turn 60+, Mourinho and Pep would not even consider international football at this stage in their career.

According to the Daily Fail, Pep applied for the job as coach of England after he left Barcelona, but was turned down by the English FA ^^

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2415135/England-turned-Pep-Guardiola-favour-Roy-Hodgson.html

Albiceleste wrote:

sportsczy wrote:R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years so he wasn't dominant for long enough.  His overall stats aren't at a high enough level compared to Pele for example.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

Pele's resume in club football isnt as impressive as the likes of Messi or Di Stefano. club football is a higher level of football than international. When Messi is done with his career his club achievements will in all likelihood be unmatched, that alone puts him up there in the goat tier, if he won the WC on top of that, he would be the undisputed GOAT bar the small minority of people that will always think Pele Maradona or even CR is better.

Pique matches that + 1 WC

Valkyrja wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:

sportsczy wrote:R9 is a goat tier lol.  Only reason he's not considered a candidate for top goat is because he was injured so many years so he wasn't dominant for long enough.  His overall stats aren't at a high enough level compared to Pele for example.

To be goat you need to win the WC and have goat-level stats.  Not just one or the other.

You're competing against guys who have both.

Pele's resume in club football isnt as impressive as the likes of Messi or Di Stefano. club football is a higher level of football than international. When Messi is done with his career his club achievements will in all likelihood be unmatched, that alone puts him up there in the goat tier, if he won the WC on top of that, he would be the undisputed GOAT bar the small minority of people that will always think Pele Maradona or even CR is better.

Pique matches that + 1 WC

Yeah Pique won 4 world player of the award and broke 137 records, become top scorer of every club competition he played. Pique needs 9 goals to be top scorer in CL history, He needs 23 goals to be top scorer in La Liga history, He is already Copa del rey top scorer, Supercopa top scorer, Club world cup top scorer

Who will repeate these things in future? The guy just owned football history

Addressing the initial questioned posed by the thread these are my thoughts on how winning the world cup would change my perception of him

Firstly, would winning the world cup change my opinion on how good he is on a technical basis? no, everyone can see his attributes, what he is capable of, his dribbles, goals, skills ect. I don't expect him to change anything of that in a world cup.

What it would test though, is the mentality. Seeing him shoulder the responsibility, pressure, and still turn up with a top performance and clutch moments in a world cup, would elevate him several levels as a sportsman and player in my view. As ive watched messi during his career, I have seen a sublime, mercurial, player, with amazing physical and technical abilities, yet I have yet to see him as a legend in the mental aspect, in the few games hes been put under immense pressure as an individual it hasn't gone well in my view. Over the years there have been a number of champions league games when Barcelona faced difficulties, and for someone being labelled "the best player ever" messi did not turn up like the label would suggest, there was no outstanding excuse for him not turning up either(Bayern aside). When Barcelona were "on it" and purring as a machine messi was wonderful, when a spanner has been thrown in the machine he disappeared (Chelsea 09, inter 10, Chelsea 12, real Madrid 11/12 la liga as examples). Of course every great player would have some bad games during their career due to any number of circumstances, but I recall no reason for messi underperforming in those games beside a dry pitch and some volcano ash, and of course, Barcelona facing difficulties on the pitch. He had some chance to prove his mental dexterity in the 2010 world cup, but seemed affected by pressure to me. His defenders claimed, "he was just unlucky to have goalkeepers making unbelievable saves", I would question how it was a coincidence that all his normally clinically precise shots suddenly became saveable. The issue continued unto the 2011 copa America, in which argentina took the competition as a serious priority, notably in the game against Uruguay, he had a game winning chance from a position he is usually 90% likely to score but his shot was saved, I only remember it because I desperately wanted argentina to win.

All things considered winning the world cup would completely change how I think of him. How it would change the worlds opinion of him? he would have less critics, that's for sure

sportsczy wrote:You guys are footy noobs...  i prefer to talk about footy history with peeps that have watched it for longer

When you say "best i have ever seen"... probably talking 10-15 years max

Messi could become the goat.  But without great WC performances, he won't.  He is king of GL though.  That should make him feel good

Just yesterday.

Osvaldo Ardiles (WC78 Argentina) - "I've already said this that Messi is not only the best football player right now, but also the best football player ever in the history of football."

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Addressing the initial questioned posed by the thread these are my thoughts on how winning the world cup would change my perception of him

Firstly, would winning the world cup change my opinion on how good he is on a technical basis? no, everyone can see his attributes, what he is capable of, his dribbles, goals, skills ect. I don't expect him to change anything of that in a world cup.

What it would test though, is the mentality. Seeing him shoulder the responsibility, pressure, and still turn up with a top performance and clutch moments in a world cup, would elevate him several levels as a sportsman and player in my view. As ive watched messi during his career, I have seen a sublime, mercurial, player, with amazing physical and technical abilities, yet I have yet to see him as a legend in the mental aspect, in the few games hes been put under immense pressure as an individual it hasn't gone well in my view. Over the years there have been a number of champions league games when Barcelona faced difficulties, and for someone being labelled "the best player ever" messi did not turn up like the label would suggest, there was no outstanding excuse for him not turning up either(Bayern aside). When Barcelona were "on it" and purring as a machine messi was wonderful, when a spanner has been thrown in the machine he disappeared (Chelsea 09, inter 10, Chelsea 12, real Madrid 11/12 la liga as examples). Of course every great player would have some bad games during their career due to any number of circumstances, but I recall no reason for messi underperforming in those games beside a dry pitch and some volcano ash, and of course, Barcelona facing difficulties on the pitch. He had some chance to prove his mental dexterity in the 2010 world cup, but seemed affected by pressure to me. His defenders claimed, "he was just unlucky to have goalkeepers making unbelievable saves", I would question how it was  a coincidence that all his normally clinically precise shots suddenly became saveable. The issue continued unto the 2011 copa America, in which argentina took the competition as a serious priority, notably in the game against Uruguay, he had a game winning chance from a position he is usually 90% likely to score but his shot was saved, I only remember it because I desperately wanted argentina to win.

All things considered winning the world cup would completely change how I think of him. How it would change the worlds opinion of him? he would have less critics, that's for sure

If Messi didnt fail in those games then Barcelona would have 6 Champions League titles in 6 years. Dont you think its extremely unrealistic? It never happened in history. Every player failed in some games. Thats why no player in history won CL 5-6 times in a row. So dont bring those games every time and blame Messi

Even Maradona.. If Maradona didnt fail in some games then he would have won CL once in his career. failed every season. Another example is R9. Some say he is best striker ever, but he never won CL in his 9 years long club career. means he failed 9 times, if we add national league titles, he failed more than 9 times. So bringing Messi's 3-4 bad games and criticizing him makes no sense

It only can make on sense: Messi is better than all of them, so you expect more from him, so failing is not accepted

Badamdar wrote:If Messi didnt fail in those games then Barcelona would have 6 Champions League titles in 6 years.

No they wouldn't.

Badamdar wrote:Dont you think its extremely unrealistic? It never happened in history.

Yep it is indeed unrealistic, as it wouldn't have even happened under your hypothetical scenario. I also think dragons, hobbits, orcs and goblins are also unrealistic.

Badamdar wrote:Every player failed in some games. Thats why no player in history won CL 5-6 times in a row.  So dont bring those games every time and blame Messi

Yeah, thanks for repeating what I wrote in my post, im really grateful for you reminding me about it and making it out as if i have not already mentioned it. There can be any number of reasons for a great player failing in a game, but the issue with those games of messi is that he had no reason, excuse, justification for disapperating when his team needed him as if his name was mundungas fletcher. I would have mentioned Bayern last season but the difference is that he had a reason for not being himself

Badamdar wrote:Even Maradona.. If Maradona didnt fail in some games then he would have won CL once in his career. failed every season. Another example is R9. Some say he is best striker ever, but he never won CL in his 9 years long club career. means he failed 9 times, if we add national league titles, he failed more than 9 times. So bringing Messi's 3-4 bad games and criticizing him makes no sense

Maradona competed in the champions league exactly twice in his career, one time of which in 90/91 where the wheels were falling off his career. Regardless of that, any bad games were not a result of not handling big game pressure well. Its all irrelevant anyway, as both maradona and Ronaldo did show up for their team under the most pressure a footballer can be under (maradona 86, Ronaldo 02) and vindicated this aspect of their sporting careers. Messi could brush this all under the carpet IF he does this but he hasn't yet.

Badamdar wrote:It only can make on sense: Messi is better than all of them, so you expect more from him, so failing is not accepted

Yeah, ok......

Lets put it this way, for messi to be GOAT (meaning above even Pele and Maradona), he HAS to win the world cup. Otherwise, people that disagrees will ALWAYS have that as a point against him.

It is the same as why some people cannot put Pele or Maradona as GOAT, because there are always some factors against them. To be the GOAT, you have to "tick" ALL factors (At least the significant ones)

Well, he clearly doesn't need a World Cup considering grown men are calling him the "best ever" all now.

Messi doesn't necessarily need a World Cup to be considered the greatest ever. However if he did win a World Cup then most likely there will never be a debate about it again. He would become the greatest ever bar none.

I watched Maradona as a teenager and to me him and Messi are the greatest players ever, with Cruyff and Beckenbauer right up there. Maradona was magic in 1986. Messi has yet to live up to that standard playing for his country. But he still has a few years to get there.

If Messi doesn't win a World Cup there will always be a debate between him and Maradona. If he does win a World Cup then the debate would effectively be over.

Oh and as far as Maradona and carrying his teams are concerned yes he carried Napoli to two Scudetti all by himself. As for the 1986 World Cup I watched every game and make no mistake about it Maradona carried that team. He played every minute of every game, he was in on 10 of the 14 goals Argentina scored (5 goals and 5 assists), he created over half of
Argentina's shots, he won the Golden Ball as best player of the tournament, and of course he scored arguably the greatest goal in football history. So all of that shows that he DID carry that team to victory, although he did have some great players surrounding him.  At the time Maradona was said to have won that tournament single handedly so unless you actually watched the games and listened to the commentary and the experts back in 1986 you wouldn't really have a clue how dominant Maradona was in that tournament.  Probably the most dominant performance I have seen from any player in a World Cup since I started watching, which dates back to 1982 and my Italia victory.

That is a tall order for Messi to carry in 2014. Let's see what happens next year.

don't see how making it 1-1 between them would end the debate  

maybe if messi won 4 world cups the debate would be over

It wouldn't. But most people would call him THE greatest ever right after he won it. And in 20 years they will call him one of the greatest ever.

Jorge Valdano (WC86 Argentina) - "Messi is Maradona every day. It is June 1986 for 5 years now. The last 5 years, Messi is the Maradona of the World Cup in Mexico."

Of course Mehssi doesn't need a world cup, Valdano said it well.

People romanticize the WC too much.

Messi is top scorer of cl every year and won best player of tournament 2 times and scored in 2 finals. Considering CL is harder than WC, then Messi is above Maradona now

World Cup is luck. You play it once in 4 years. And 2 times in your career. You must be lucky to have right coach, right tactics, right defense attack at that moment. Argentina were great team in 70-80.Lot of copa america titles and 2 world cups (even without maradona). Now they have 0 title in last 20 years. Messi doesnt have right team in right moment. Actually Messi's Argentina doesnt have even top-20 defense in the world

Argentina situation right now:

Defense-Not in top 20
Midfield-Not in top 10
Attack-The Best

Compared to Spain:
Defense-Top 3
Midfield-The best
Attack-Top 3

Germany
Defense-Top 3
Midfield-Top 3
Attack-Top 3

Portugal
Defense-Top 3
Midfield-Top 10
Attack-Top 5

Balanced teams win titles. Unbalanced team like Argentina can not win WC. "Defense wins titles" is a right phrase

Portugal defense is top 3, Portugal attack is top 5? Helder Postiga ftw?

WTF am I reading????????????????????

Portugal, if they even make a top 10 WC midfield list, they would be at the bottom of it.

They play with great frustration.

____

On Messi, all I'd say is, he's got 2 upcoming WC's to light up. He doesn't have to win it. Get to the finals, play great footie, score great goals, maybe become the top scorer at WC, get individual awards at the WC. It will be enough.

Badamdar wrote:Argentina situation right now:

Defense-Not in top 20
Midfield-Not in top 10
Attack-The Best

Please name 20 defenses better than Argentina's and 10 midfields.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Badamdar wrote:Argentina situation right now:

Defense-Not in top 20
Midfield-Not in top 10
Attack-The Best

Please name 20 defenses better than Argentina's and 10 midfields.

I was going to write that.

Messi doesn't need squat.

Argentina's defence is actually quite good now.

Campagnaro and Zabaleta are both excellent while Garay and Coloccini are both good defenders and there's probably more available to them which are decent as well.

Their choices at LB are quite bad mind you, but on the whole even on paper its quite good and nowhere near as bad as exaggerated.

Billionmillion pls

Btw calling it now Argentina win the wc in Brazil, and Messi is crowned the GOAT.

Only good defender Spain have is Ramos on form. They don't even have a striker ffs. Their midfield is the best.
Germany is very balanced and Brazil too.

Portugal ?  2 average midfielders in Moutinho and Meireles, a good winger and the 2nd best player in the world. Average defense, Pepe and Bruno are past it.

Valkyrja wrote:Only good defender Spain have is Ramos on form. They don't even have a striker ffs. Their midfield is the best.
Germany is very balanced and Brazil too.

Portugal ?  2 average midfielders in Moutinho and Meireles, a good winger and the 2nd best player in the world. Average defense, Pepe and Bruno are past it.

Diego Costa says hello