Re: Messi doesn't need World Cup

by Harmonica Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:39 pm

FalcaoPunch wrote:I just can't understand how so many people here disregard the World Cup. It makes no sense.

World Cup is the highest thing a player can strive for.

It's the highest in national level, in club level it's Champions League, in individual level it's Ballon d'Or. Then there is also quality and consistency which play part of these legacies.

by ronalessi Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Ganso wrote:
sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT... no discussion possible. It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world. You just have your country. So your team will always have flaws. Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna... probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.
completely agree

Agreed. Nigerians feel the same about this issue as well. I can confirm.

by Ganso Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Ask any player if they rather win the WC or the CL, that will tell you how superior CL is to the WC

by Harmonica Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:47 pm

ronalessi wrote:
Ganso wrote:
sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT... no discussion possible. It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world. You just have your country. So your team will always have flaws. Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna... probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.
completely agree
Agreed. Nigerians feel the same about this issue as well. I can confirm.

by Casciavit Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:57 pm

ronalessi wrote:
Ganso wrote:
sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT... no discussion possible. It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world. You just have your country. So your team will always have flaws. Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna... probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.
completely agree
Agreed. Nigerians feel the same about this issue as well. I can confirm.

by zizzle Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:14 pm

Messi either needs to win the world cup or leave his comfort zone dominate outside Barca. It's the same argument used against Pele, but at least Pele won with his national team, so until Messi does one of the two he will only be considered the best ever by Barca fans only.

by Art Morte Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:25 pm

rwo power wrote:
Art Morte wrote:Of course he doesn't need to win it to be the best ever.

Imagine he was, say, from Burkina Faso. They're never going to win the World Cup, but Messi of Burkina Faso would still be the best player the world has seen.
On the other hand, Argentina is a country with an NT strong enough that it could win the World Cup - so Messi should be able to push them to do it, wouldn't you say?

No, because this whole comparison is flawed anyway: trying to estimate individual merit (best player in the world or not) based on team effort (winning the world cup).

To be the best individual your team does not need to be the best team.

by Harmonica Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:26 pm

zizzle wrote:Messi either needs to win the world cup or leave his comfort zone dominate outside Barca. It's the same argument used against Pele, but at least Pele won with his national team, so until Messi does one of the two he will only be considered the best ever by Barca fans only.

Pele had two comfort zone's, Messi one. Don't know how they differentiate anything. And maybe you have missed Messi dominating with Argentina these last couple years.

Also a lot of Barca fans already it seems. Proud

Diego Simeone
Arturo Vidal
Dennis Wise
Oscar Garcia
Ruud van Nistelrooy
Albert Luque
Willem van Hanegem
Ronald de Boer
Josip Simunic
Harry Redknapp
Juan Antonio Anguela
Luis Suarez Miramontes
Enrique Orizaola
Enrique Dominguez
Hugo Sotil
Mircea Lucescu
Antonio Cassano
Ivan Helguera
Domenico Criscito
Albert Ferrer
Osvaldo Ardiles
Bernd Schuster
Gary Neville
Gary Lineker
Joey Barton
Miku
Ray Hudson
John Terry
Adriano Galliani
Ruud Gullit
Graeme Souness
Terry Venables
Wayne Rooney
Tom Huddlestone
Arsene Wenger
Michael Owen
Roy Keane
Rudi Voller
Jose Luis Chilavert
Gerry Armstrong
Carlos Bianchi
Peter Schmeichel
Julio Alberto
Gabriel Milito

by neuro11 Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:36 pm

zizzle wrote:Messi either needs to win the world cup or leave his comfort zone dominate outside Barca. It's the same argument used against Pele, but at least Pele won with his national team, so until Messi does one of the two he will only be considered the best ever by Barca fans only.

thats the best you can think of ??

by zizzle Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:38 pm

Harmonica wrote:
zizzle wrote:Messi either needs to win the world cup or leave his comfort zone dominate outside Barca. It's the same argument used against Pele, but at least Pele won with his national team, so until Messi does one of the two he will only be considered the best ever by Barca fans only.
Pele had two comfort zone's, Messi one. Don't know how they differentiate anything. And maybe you have missed Messi dominating with Argentina these last couple years.

okay...

by neuro11 Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:39 pm

no need a WC, carrying the team to a good result (semifinal or final) with a great performance should be enough.....

by zizzle Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:40 pm

neuro11 wrote:
zizzle wrote:Messi either needs to win the world cup or leave his comfort zone dominate outside Barca. It's the same argument used against Pele, but at least Pele won with his national team, so until Messi does one of the two he will only be considered the best ever by Barca fans only.
thats the best you can think of ??

that's the best counter argument you have ? at least Harmonica tried...

by juvealbanian Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:56 pm

Messi will be one of the greatest no matter if he wins a WC or not.It will just change a few stats,nothing more.

by 1991 Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:21 pm

mr-r34 wrote:
1991 wrote:He doesn't. The world cup is no longer the premier football competition, the champions league is the highest level, hell the world cup ain't even the premier international competition anymore.

Lets look at who the winners, Spain played in the euro's:

Italy, Ireland, Croatia, France, Portugal, Italy

4/6 high quality fixtures

in the world cup:

Switzerland, Honduras, Chile, Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands

3/7 high quality fixtures

Enough said.
Your logic is so flawed i can't even understand how you came about it. That's all got to do with the luck of the draw, nothing to do with how better the euro's are than the world cup, every great team from the euro's plays in the world cup, adding all the other countries from around the world that are great as well makes it the harder competition.

It's simple. The world cup has more filler, that's a fact, thus reducing the level of competition.

There's about 3 great teams outside of europe, 3 out of 16 extra teams in the wc, that means for every Brazil or Uruguay you get 5 crap-mediocre teams. There's a higher % of top teams in the euro's, that means top teams are more likely to play against each other than they are in the WC.

Let's look at the other finalists in the WC route: Netherlands;

Denmark, Japan, Cameron, Slovakia, Brazil, Uruguay, Spain

3/7 again...what a coincidence

Let's look at the other finalists of the Euro: Italy route;

Spain, Croatia, Ireland, England, Germany, Spain

4/6 again...lol, consistent patterns aren't an indication of luck.

People who still think the WC is the premier football competition only do so because they are simply enamored with it's prestige, don't confuse quality & prestige.

by Albiceleste Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:26 pm

sportsczy wrote:It's impossible to even be considered top 2 ever without winning the WC on a team as talented as Argentina NT... no discussion possible. It's by far the biggest tournament in the world.

The great thing about the WC is that you can't cherry pick players from all over the world. You just have your country. So your team will always have flaws. Even the great Brazil NTs had very suspect keepers and CBs all the way through 2006 WC.

So these great players have to adapt and make their teams win despite the flaws.

Messi will have to prove that he can take a team that isn't built for him but has great talent to the top of the class.

Until that happens, Pele and Maradonna... probably even Beckenbauer, will always look down on Messi in almost everyone's eyes other than Barca fans.

Stop projecting, that is your/GLs opinion not "almost everyone's"

If you really think only barca fans will think he is up there with pele and maradona at the end of his career without a wc then youre deluding yourself

by DeviAngel Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:33 pm

I agree simple as that

by Albiceleste Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:49 pm

I agree with Gabi, but winning the world cup would do things for Messis legacy that no other tournament can. It would make his name synonymous with the sport worldwide like Pele and Maradonas. You could say his legacy would be incomplete without one but 7 games cant erase what he has done his whole career. For football fans he will probably be the best player even without the WC. it will be harder for him to get the appreciation from the non football fans of the world without the WC but not impossible

by rwo power Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:00 pm

Well, let's put it this way - if I'd ask my Mom or my Dad, who only watch football when the World Cup is on, which player is supposed to be the best in the world, they would likely mention the likes of Maradona and Pele and Beckenbauer and some other outstanding players in the World Cups, but you can be sure they don't know any foreign player who only plays well in leagues or stuff like the CL (of which only some of the German matches are shown on FreeTV). So Albiceleste's point is pretty good.

by Art Morte Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:09 pm

Nah, more famous =/= better player

Or Beckham would be a top-10 all time footballer.

It's those people's opinion and judgement that counts who know something about the matter.

by RonaldoGreatestEverRM Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:14 pm

Messi needs the World Cup, because his Team has the caliber to win it, its capable of great things with that stellar attack.

by Beautiful Football Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:15 pm

Art Morte wrote:Nah, more famous =/= better player

Or Beckham would be a top-10 all time footballer.

It's those people's opinion and judgement that counts who know something about the matter.

Well said mate.

by Rebaño Sagrado Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:17 pm

I guess he doesn't need to win it to become the greatest. Maybe a couple of good performances in the WC and he wouldn't been seen as a nt flop. Then again imagine if he were to win the WC in brazil. Would there be any doubt about who the goat is?

by rwo power Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:22 pm

Well, looks like we are stuck again at the definition of "best player" - is it best player according to stats and if yes - which stats? Is a goalscorer who scores the bigger absolute number of goals better than a goal scorer who has the best percentage in efficiency? And are they better than a goalkeeper who managed to get the most clean sheets vs games he played? If you go for "beautiful play", then things get even more tricky as it is a purely subjective value. And if you go for titles, well, these are even more difficult to evaluate as then the other players of the team in which a player played need to be acknowledged, too.

The fame a player collected will always get into the subjective evaluation of the player, too. If you ask the average English person about the best player, who do you think they would name? The "greatest player" definitely is not about the ability, but mostly about fame.

by Donuts Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:24 pm

I don't understand how people can say Argentina has a good team.. Has anyone seen their defense? A bunch of no names, meh midfield and above average attack force which can't even be used all at once.

by Valkyrja Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:27 pm

Donuts wrote:I don't understand how people can say Argentina has a good team.. Has anyone seen their defense? A bunch of no names, meh midfield and above average attack force which can't even be used all at once.

Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Lamela, Lavezzi, Tevez are above average ? They are all great players.

by Albiceleste Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:31 pm

we've got a good team but this isn't even better than our 06 team

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