Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

Both of them are excellent players and I love them ,but I feel they have been guilty in our not so up to stratch second half performances this season.

One thing, none of them are the most mobile of players (Gerrard used to be, but not at 33), and None of them no longer offer too much of a goal threat. They don't really get in the box as much as they should and when pressed, they struggle.

Maybe it's just rustiness of a tough pre-season which has designed for our team to reach peak form around christmas, but I feel we need another option in CM in January. It's clearly the next area we should target to strengthen.

For both Swansea's goals today, I watched replay over 10 times, and both of them were woeful and out of position. For Shelvey's goal when Shelvey blitz past them, they both just stood there and watched, whereas if they had (or at least one of them) ran back, he could have blocked Shelvey's second attempt. For the second goal, Gerrard didn't track Shelvey's run and Lucas was out of position. Yea, Sakho shouldn't have come out (obvious communication issue with Skrtel as he doesn't even speak English yet), but Gerrard should have tracked Shelvey.

I think our team will reach another level if we had a midfielder like Gundogan type there. Before you all slay me saying he is unattainable, mentione I said, a midfield of his ILK. I think this should be priority this window. We really could have done with Joe Allen coming on for Coutinho tonight as he would have pressed them and helped us retain some possession. Shame he was injured.

To me, at the moment, centre midfield is our weakest link especially in the game we get pressed. I hope both of them raise their performance level as the season wears on and they get closer to top physical shape.

Still, unbeaten, top of the league...and one of the best strikers in the world is back after one game.

Lucas ( ball player) & Gerrard ( ball winner) is very much like Alonso ( ball player) & Mascherano ( ball winner) but the the thing is Gerrard has not the Energy any more to run around for 90's mins & it cost us not have a pace power house in midfield,

not sure we need to buy a player to take over Gerrard in XI or in the squad ?

would Lucas/Henderson/Coutinho be good enough for a top 4 team ?

but we are squad is mess back up in midfield,

I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

Well, this overlaps a bit with the thread I made, but anyway, here's my reply:

Yeah, I agree. We are being out-worked in midfield, not out-skilled. But you need both to be a top team, energy and ability. Maybe Gerrard and Lucas find another gear yet, but at the moment we're like an electric car: brilliant for a short distance but out of power before the race finishes.

But we don't have much CM options, unfortunately. If one of them had to be dropped I'd drop Lucas and let Gerrard stay deep as much he likes (and hope he'd quickly grasp the pure defensive-midfielder role. He's got the passing range to be very effective from deep, this much we know already).

It's a stamina issue. Come the second half, the work rate drops drastically.

Personally, i'd take Henderson out of there and get a proper midfielder. But the problem is that Liverpool have nobody on the squad lol.

I think you guys are stuck. Your best hope is to be ahead going into halftime and then hold on the best you can against the better teams.

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

i agree with that 100%,

see people think Lucas is the weak link in central midfield & needs to be drop but the thing is Gerrard is play the same role as Lucas, so that mean we got 2 deep midfielders & Gerrard run out of energy ,

so the gap in central midfield get bigger, put Henderson back in front of Lucas & Gerrard help but we still need that creativity in central midfield,

don't think Lucas,Henderson,Coutinho or Allen will work,

If Liverpool was really ambitious, they would do whatever they could to get Khedira from Real Madrid over the winter...

Khedira is average. lol

Suso look like he turn into a good central midfielder ball player,

think it best we go back to 4-4-1-1 that way we get the best out of Gerrard, Suárez,Alberto,Aspas, till Suárez is sold & we think how going replace Gerrard in the team

A team

Moses----Gerrard----Jordan---Coutinho--
----------------Suárez---
---------------Sturridge-------

B team

Ibe---Lucas--Allen---Sterling
----------Alberto-----
----------Aspas

"It's a stamina issue so your best bet is getting rid of the player who has shown the most work rate and stamina in the midfield."

RedOranje wrote:"It's a stamina issue so your best bet is getting rid of the player who has shown the most work rate and stamina in the midfield."

i would drop Gerrard as i think he can not run midfield as central midfielder/ box-to-box midfielder/attacking midfielder but because of who he is it hard to drop him,

we got start look at who going to take his place in XI, some say Coutinho will fill that role but for me we need some Henderson but with more goals & skills

Henderson is not really good is my point.  You really need to upgrade there.  Sure, he's the youngest and has the best stamina.  When i said it was a stamina issue, i meant for the starters.  Both Lucas and Gerrard have great quality, but in Gerrard's case, it's not a full game thing anymore.

In Henderson's case, effort does not lead to achievement unfortunately.  He has very little impact on the game.  You can be shat and still work hard lol.

I'd bring him on as Gerrard's sub around the 60-70 min mark (Gerrard runs out of gas) and get a true starter.

Khedira is not average.  He's good in a B2B role.  Problem is that Madrid want him to be a DM.... and he's not that.  Watch him with Germany NT and you see how well he can play in his proper role.

I doubt Liverpool can get him though.  If he leaves, i think he goes back to Bundi unless an elite team go after him.

Henderson's not shit, trust us. He's a proper player and especially with our lack of intensity in midfield we need his energy really a lot, too. But he is truly more than that, too. In the current set-up he is one of the last players to drop or we'd be run ragged in midfield from the start.

Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson is the player to take over from Gerrard the player who he is now

but Henderson is not the player to take over from Gerrard ( when at his best) who made goals & score goals, i still think we need to go all out for for Alan Dzagoev

vegfootball wrote:Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson is the player to take over from Gerrard the player who he is now

but Henderson is not the player to take over from Gerrard ( when at his best) who made goals & score goals, i still think we need to go all out for for Alan Dzagoev

You're not looking at the whole picture, mate. Gerrard's contribution in passing, spirit and reading the game is beyond anyone else in the team. Hes our captain and rightly so. Because it does look like we are lacking energy in midfield I'd drop Lucas, experimentally, and partner Stevie with someone who is looking to get up the pitch faster than him or Lucas. The only problem with that is that I doubt either of Allen or Alberto are good enough, but judging by the first four games it's worth a try, especially considering that our next few games aren't the most testing on paper.

I remember we were strongly linked with Matuidi 2 years ago when he was still at Saints Ettienne and Comolli was here.

Thinking about it now, he would have been a very shrewd signing. Comolli useless bastard didn't even pull it off considering he used to work for ASSE !!

Art Morte wrote:

vegfootball wrote:Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson is the player to take over from Gerrard the player who he is now

but Henderson is not the player to take over from Gerrard ( when at his best) who made goals & score goals, i still think we need to go all out for for Alan Dzagoev

You're not looking at the whole picture, mate. Gerrard's contribution in passing, spirit and reading the game is beyond anyone else in the team. Hes our captain and rightly so. Because it does look like we are lacking energy in midfield I'd drop Lucas, experimentally, and partner Stevie with someone who is looking to get up the pitch faster than him or Lucas. The only problem with that is that I doubt either of Allen or Alberto are good enough, but judging by the first four games it's worth a try, especially considering that our next few games aren't the most testing on paper.

like i said Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson should be the one pick with Lucas, Gerrard & Allen should be back up,

but you said & i have said it hard to drop Gerrard for who he is but the the thing is Gerrard is now old & not the same player, it time to be look find some to take over from him

vegfootball wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

vegfootball wrote:Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson is the player to take over from Gerrard the player who he is now

but Henderson is not the player to take over from Gerrard ( when at his best) who made goals & score goals, i still think we need to go all out for for Alan Dzagoev

You're not looking at the whole picture, mate. Gerrard's contribution in passing, spirit and reading the game is beyond anyone else in the team. Hes our captain and rightly so. Because it does look like we are lacking energy in midfield I'd drop Lucas, experimentally, and partner Stevie with someone who is looking to get up the pitch faster than him or Lucas. The only problem with that is that I doubt either of Allen or Alberto are good enough, but judging by the first four games it's worth a try, especially considering that our next few games aren't the most testing on paper.

like i said Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson should be the one pick with Lucas,  Gerrard & Allen should be back up,

but you said & i have said it hard to drop Gerrard for who he is but the the thing is Gerrard is now old & not the same player, it time to be look find some to take over from him

When I argue the sort of things in favour of Gerrard as spirit, reading of the game and captaincy, I don't think the winning argument is to start with stats. Looking at stats, Gerrard had a tremendous season last season.

I agree that both Gerrard's and Lucas's stature in the squad makes it difficult to drop them, but that's why managers are there, to make difficult decisions. Leave Gerrard there but try and see what happens if we take Lucas on the bench, that's what I suggest.

Art Morte wrote:

vegfootball wrote:

Art Morte wrote:You're not looking at the whole picture, mate. Gerrard's contribution in passing, spirit and reading the game is beyond anyone else in the team. Hes our captain and rightly so. Because it does look like we are lacking energy in midfield I'd drop Lucas, experimentally, and partner Stevie with someone who is looking to get up the pitch faster than him or Lucas. The only problem with that is that I doubt either of Allen or Alberto are good enough, but judging by the first four games it's worth a try, especially considering that our next few games aren't the most testing on paper.

like i said Henderson stats & Gerrard stats are near the same, Henderson should be the one pick with Lucas,  Gerrard & Allen should be back up,

but you said & i have said it hard to drop Gerrard for who he is but the the thing is Gerrard is now old & not the same player, it time to be look find some to take over from him

When I argue the sort of things in favour of Gerrard as spirit, reading of the game and captaincy, I don't think the winning argument is to start with stats. Looking at stats, Gerrard had a tremendous season last season.

I agree that both Gerrard's and Lucas's stature in the squad makes it difficult to drop them, but that's why managers are there, to make difficult decisions. Leave Gerrard there but try and see what happens if we take Lucas on the bench, that's what I suggest.

ok last season per game games started Henderson was are best Midfielder who score goals/assists/chances created & best tackles won

this year Henderson passing accuracy is the same as Gerrard, he won more aerial duels won/tackles won & Gerrard edge with other stats,

now you take Gerrard for the player he is now Henderson should edge Gerrard out of the team,

just like how long we try to keep John Barnes it did us more harm than good

not saying Gerrard a bad player but got think how to use him to get the best out of him, he run out of  energy around 50 min mark, i think would best to use Gerrard as sub to put on around 60 min mark as old head to help the team

vegfootball wrote:Lucas ( ball player)  &  Gerrard ( ball winner) is very much like Alonso ( ball player) & Mascherano ( ball winner) but the the thing is Gerrard has not the Energy any more to run around for 90's mins & it cost us not have a pace power house in midfield,

not sure we need to buy a player to take over Gerrard in XI or in the  squad ?

would Lucas/Henderson/Coutinho be good enough for a top 4 team ?

but we are squad is mess back up in midfield,

Gerrard isn't a ball winner and never has been. He's the deep lying playmaker, a la Alonso. Lucas should be the one playing a role more similar to Masch.

To answer the LL/JH/PC question. No. Lucas isn't a good enough DM and Henderson doesn't have the quality to play Gerrard's role yet.

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

It's not the least of our problems at all. It's a big problem and one I was going to make a thread about myself before I was beaten to it. A midfield that can only control a game for 45 minutes is definitely a problem.

Also, the Lucas injury thing. It can't be an excuse any longer. He came back from his original injury 13 months ago and from his second injury 10 months ago. How long are we going to give up before we realise that he's not up to it? I've also explained in another post how we shouldn't be clinging on to that pre injury form considering we want to play a different system now.

Art Morte wrote:Well, this overlaps a bit with the thread I made, but anyway, here's my reply:

Yeah, I agree. We are being out-worked in midfield, not out-skilled. But you need both to be a top team, energy and ability. Maybe Gerrard and Lucas find another gear yet, but at the moment we're like an electric car: brilliant for a short distance but out of power before the race finishes.

But we don't have much CM options, unfortunately. If one of them had to be dropped I'd drop Lucas and let Gerrard stay deep as much he likes (and hope he'd quickly grasp the pure defensive-midfielder role. He's got the passing range to be very effective from deep, this much we know already).

I agree with pretty much all of your post except the bolded part. It's impossible to learn the DM position at 33. It requires a lot of tactical and positional discipline, reading of the game and natural instincts that Gerrard doesn't have. That's not me knocking him, I love the man, he's my hero. But the role he plays now and the role of a pure DM are too different. As you say, he's proving to be effective from deep and I think we should let him continue in that position.

sportsczy wrote:It's a stamina issue.  Come the second half, the work rate drops drastically.

Personally, i'd take Henderson out of there and get a proper midfielder.  But the problem is that Liverpool have nobody on the squad lol.

I think you guys are stuck.  Your best hope is to be ahead going into halftime and then hold on the best you can against the better teams.

We can't take Hendo out, he provides the energy of 3 men. And we seriously lack energy in midfield.

vegfootball wrote:

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

i agree with that 100%,

see people think Lucas is the weak link in central midfield & needs to be drop but the thing is Gerrard is play the same role as Lucas, so that mean we got 2 deep midfielders & Gerrard run out of  energy ,

so the gap in central midfield get bigger, put Henderson back in front of Lucas & Gerrard help but we still need that creativity in central midfield,

don't think Lucas,Henderson,Coutinho or Allen will work,

They don't play the same role. Lucas is a DM. Gerrard is a playmaker. Similar positions. Different roles.

vegfootball wrote:think it best we go back to 4-4-1-1 that way we get the best out of  Gerrard, Suárez,Alberto,Aspas, till Suárez is sold & we think how going replace Gerrard in the team

A team

Moses----Gerrard----Jordan---Coutinho--
----------------Suárez---
---------------Sturridge-------

B team

Ibe---Lucas--Allen---Sterling
----------Alberto-----
----------Aspas

Gerrard - Hendo wouldn't work, neither can play DM. I think we'd get away with it using a 3 at the back but not with the way we're playing right now.

Natalie Portman wrote:I remember we were strongly linked with Matuidi 2 years ago when he was still at Saints Ettienne and Comolli was here.

Thinking about it now, he would have been a very shrewd signing. Comolli useless bastard didn't even pull it off considering he used to work for ASSE !!

That wasn't Comolli's fault. He wanted him, spoke openly about how highly he rated him. Kenny's buy British policy meant we went for Charlie Adam. Truth is Kenny had probably never heard of him.

He's a brilliant player though, and his contract expires next summer. PSG would be idiots not to offer him a new contract, but if it stalls we should be all over him. He'd improve us massively.

El Jefe wrote:

vegfootball wrote:Lucas ( ball player)  &  Gerrard ( ball winner) is very much like Alonso ( ball player) & Mascherano ( ball winner) but the the thing is Gerrard has not the Energy any more to run around for 90's mins & it cost us not have a pace power house in midfield,

not sure we need to buy a player to take over Gerrard in XI or in the  squad ?

would Lucas/Henderson/Coutinho be good enough for a top 4 team ?

but we are squad is mess back up in midfield,

Gerrard isn't a ball winner and never has been. He's the deep lying playmaker, a la Alonso. Lucas should be the one playing a role more similar to Masch.

To answer the LL/JH/PC question. No. Lucas isn't a good enough DM and Henderson doesn't have the quality to play Gerrard's role yet.

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

It's not the least of our problems at all. It's a big problem and one I was going to make a thread about myself before I was beaten to it. A midfield that can only control a game for 45 minutes is definitely a problem.

Also, the Lucas injury thing. It can't be an excuse any longer. He came back from his original injury 13 months ago and from his second injury 10 months ago. How long are we going to give up before we realise that he's not up to it? I've also explained in another post how we shouldn't be clinging on to that pre injury form considering we want to play a different system now.

Art Morte wrote:Well, this overlaps a bit with the thread I made, but anyway, here's my reply:

Yeah, I agree. We are being out-worked in midfield, not out-skilled. But you need both to be a top team, energy and ability. Maybe Gerrard and Lucas find another gear yet, but at the moment we're like an electric car: brilliant for a short distance but out of power before the race finishes.

But we don't have much CM options, unfortunately. If one of them had to be dropped I'd drop Lucas and let Gerrard stay deep as much he likes (and hope he'd quickly grasp the pure defensive-midfielder role. He's got the passing range to be very effective from deep, this much we know already).

I agree with pretty much all of your post except the bolded part. It's impossible to learn the DM position at 33. It requires a lot of tactical and positional discipline, reading of the game and natural instincts that Gerrard doesn't have. That's not me knocking him, I love the man, he's my hero. But the role he plays now and the role of a pure DM are too different. As you say, he's proving to be effective from deep and I think we should let him continue in that position.

sportsczy wrote:It's a stamina issue.  Come the second half, the work rate drops drastically.

Personally, i'd take Henderson out of there and get a proper midfielder.  But the problem is that Liverpool have nobody on the squad lol.

I think you guys are stuck.  Your best hope is to be ahead going into halftime and then hold on the best you can against the better teams.

We can't take Hendo out, he provides the energy of 3 men. And we seriously lack energy in midfield.

vegfootball wrote:

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

i agree with that 100%,

see people think Lucas is the weak link in central midfield & needs to be drop but the thing is Gerrard is play the same role as Lucas, so that mean we got 2 deep midfielders & Gerrard run out of  energy ,

so the gap in central midfield get bigger, put Henderson back in front of Lucas & Gerrard help but we still need that creativity in central midfield,

don't think Lucas,Henderson,Coutinho or Allen will work,

They don't play the same role. Lucas is a DM. Gerrard is a playmaker. Similar positions. Different roles.

vegfootball wrote:think it best we go back to 4-4-1-1 that way we get the best out of  Gerrard, Suárez,Alberto,Aspas, till Suárez is sold & we think how going replace Gerrard in the team

A team

Moses----Gerrard----Jordan---Coutinho--
----------------Suárez---
---------------Sturridge-------

B team

Ibe---Lucas--Allen---Sterling
----------Alberto-----
----------Aspas

Gerrard - Hendo wouldn't work, neither can play DM. I think we'd get away with it using a 3 at the back but not with the way we're playing right now.

Natalie Portman wrote:I remember we were strongly linked with Matuidi 2 years ago when he was still at Saints Ettienne and Comolli was here.

Thinking about it now, he would have been a very shrewd signing. Comolli useless bastard didn't even pull it off considering he used to work for ASSE !!

That wasn't Comolli's fault. He wanted him, spoke openly about how highly he rated him. Kenny's buy British policy meant we went for Charlie Adam. Truth is Kenny had probably never heard of him.

He's a brilliant player though, and his contract expires next summer. PSG would be idiots not to offer him a new contract, but if it stalls we should be all over him. He'd improve us massively.

i said Lucas &  Gerrard is much like Alonso & Mascherano,

Lucas play deep & keep the ball moving & Gerrard play a bit more forward try to win the ball but Gerrard can not do the Mascherano role as not got the legs to run any more,

what end up with both Lucas & Gerrard very deep, what level room for other team,

as for Gerrard been the playmaker-Lucas/Henderson/Allen have better passing accuracy & Suárez/Coutinho the most creativity so don't need Gerrard as the playmaker nor there a role for him,

not say we should just get rid as room in the squad for Gerrard but should not be pick as No 1 for XI

ha, people ignored it when I spoke about effective utilization of Gerrard.

With Shelvey had a made run from so deep for their second goal and then he comes near the box and wins the header, it was sad really to see them scoring that goal.

I have said it thousand times and i will say it again, we must play Hendo in the center behind the striker. Coutinho being suceessful only in the center is a myth really. Off course he may be more effective but I believe he can be equally effective when he starts from the wings. So I believe that cou on the left and Hendo in the center will be perfect for us. Hendo is not a very technically gifted player but I can see him being good in the link play in the center and also being more productive in terms of creative. the simple thing is, if we play
Cou and suarez drifting inside from wide positions will surely leave hendo with some space and time to do something. I have not seen much from cou making runs behind the defence, as Hendo often does.

So playing hendo in the center will provide steel and also reduce the burdens on Lucas and Gerrard pair. Hendo can be more helpful to this pair when he played in the mid. His stammina and energy gets wasted on the wings really. I mean it can be more effectively used to help Gerrard and Lucas.

Speaking abou Swans game, i think we could have coped with Coutinho's departure,
1. by bringing Hendo in the center and Aspas on RW
2. I would have even introduced Alberto in Cou's place. I know Alberto is quite young, inexperienced but he could have been more effective in that game once he was told by BR what is to be done in that role. Aspas is almost useless in that role really.
3. As already pointed out, Allen was injured otherwise I am sure BR would have brought him instead of Aspas.

The main thing is, i hope that techincal analysis university nerd tells BR about those runs, mistakes, Aspas, hendo and other stuff.

Lucas & Henderson in the same team in 17 games we have only lost one game, that best pair in midfield any other pick we have lost games more than win/draw

sure Rodgers can see that we need one up grade in midfield if going to play a 3 man midfield