Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

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Post by vegfootball Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:16 pm

Lucas & Henderson in the same team in 17 games we have only lost one game, that best pair in midfield any other pick we have lost games more than win/draw

sure Rodgers can see that we need one up grade in midfield if going to play a 3 man midfield

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Post by McAgger Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:57 pm

vegfootball wrote:Lucas & Henderson in the same team  in 17 games we have only lost one game,  that best pair in midfield any other pick we have lost games more than win/draw

sure Rodgers can see that we need one up grade in midfield if going to play a 3 man midfield
Guess what else was in midfield for that period? That's right, Gerrard was there for 15 of the games.
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Post by El Jefe Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:22 pm

vegfootball wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
vegfootball wrote:Lucas ( ball player)  &  Gerrard ( ball winner) is very much like Alonso ( ball player) & Mascherano ( ball winner) but the the thing is Gerrard has not the Energy any more to run around for 90's mins & it cost us not have a pace power house in midfield,

not sure we need to buy a player to take over Gerrard in XI or in the  squad ?

would Lucas/Henderson/Coutinho be good enough for a top 4 team ?

but we are squad is mess back up in midfield,
Gerrard isn't a ball winner and never has been. He's the deep lying playmaker, a la Alonso. Lucas should be the one playing a role more similar to Masch.

To answer the LL/JH/PC question. No. Lucas isn't a good enough DM and Henderson doesn't have the quality to play Gerrard's role yet.
i said Lucas  &  Gerrard is much like Alonso  & Mascherano,

Lucas play deep & keep the ball moving &  Gerrard play a bit more forward try to win the ball but Gerrard can not do the Mascherano role as not got the legs to run any more,

what end up with both Lucas & Gerrard very deep, what level room for other team,

as for Gerrard been the playmaker-Lucas/Henderson/Allen have better passing accuracy & Suárez/Coutinho the most creativity so don't need Gerrard as the playmaker nor there a role for him,

not say we should just get rid as room in the squad for Gerrard but should not be pick as No 1 for XI
I know what you said. You said Lucas played Alonso's role and Gerrard played Mascherano's. That's completely wrong. Gerrard is the playmaker, as was Alonso. Lucas is the DM, like Mascherano (but nowhere near as good). Just because Gerrard sometimes moves forward doesn't make him a ball winner.
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Post by Red Alert Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:43 am

El Jefe wrote:

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

It's not the least of our problems at all. It's a big problem and one I was going to make a thread about myself before I was beaten to it. A midfield that can only control a game for 45 minutes is definitely a problem.

Also, the Lucas injury thing. It can't be an excuse any longer. He came back from his original injury 13 months ago and from his second injury 10 months ago. How long are we going to give up before we realise that he's not up to it? I've also explained in another post how we shouldn't be clinging on to that pre injury form considering we want to play a different system now.
The duo is not that big of a problem. In fact, the only problem is that there's no depth to cover them. If one of them gets shot, we're in big trouble. But at the end of the day, the main problem is the player in front of them.

They (Gerrard and Lucas) can control the game for longer than 45 minutes, they've shown that consistently from last season. Rodgers has changed his approach this season. He's came out and said it as well. We play a lot more defensive in the second half of games nowadays, and that's why they get overrun; we allow the opposition midfield to dominate possession. That's on Rodgers tactical game plan, rather than on Gerrard and Lucas.

Dude, Leiva is lucky he's still playing the game at a high level. The amount of times people come back from an ACL (not just in football but in other sports too) and show nothing from their previous form is common. Lucas is slowly getting back into his old form also adapting to a new style of game. We've had 4 different managers in the last 5 years. That's 5 different game styles. Lucas missed a lot of playing time last season because of injury. He was key in our second half form. (Just as much as Sturridge and Coutinho, Lucas came back in December and that's when our run started.) I'm aware you don't rate the guy, but he's one of our best and most important players whether you like it or not...
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Post by Red Alert Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:51 am

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:ha, people ignored it when I spoke about effective utilization of Gerrard.

With Shelvey had a made run from so deep for their second goal and then he comes near the box and wins the header, it was sad really to see them scoring that goal. :facepalm:

I have said it thousand times and i will say it again, we must play Hendo in the center behind the striker. Coutinho being suceessful only in the center is a myth really. Off course he may be more effective but I believe he can be equally effective when he starts from the wings. So I believe that cou on the left and Hendo in the center will be perfect for us. Hendo is not a very technically gifted player but I can see him being good in the link play in the center and also being more productive in terms of creative. the simple thing is, if we play
studge
cou Hendo Suarez
Cou and suarez drifting inside from wide positions will surely leave hendo with some space and time to do something. I have not seen much from cou making runs behind the defence, as Hendo often does.

So playing hendo in the center will provide steel and also reduce the burdens on Lucas and Gerrard pair. Hendo can be more helpful to this pair when he played in the mid. His stammina and energy gets wasted on the wings really. I mean it can be more effectively used to help Gerrard and Lucas.

Speaking abou Swans game, i think we could have coped with Coutinho's departure,
1. by bringing Hendo in the center and Aspas on RW
2. I would have even introduced Alberto in Cou's place. I know Alberto is quite young, inexperienced but he could have been more effective in that game once he was told by BR what is to be done in that role. Aspas is almost useless in that role really.
3. As already pointed out, Allen was injured otherwise I am sure BR would have brought him instead of Aspas.

The main thing is, i hope that techincal analysis university nerd tells BR about those runs, mistakes, Aspas, hendo and other stuff.
Good post.
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Post by El Jefe Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:19 pm

something-red wrote:
El Jefe wrote:

something-red wrote:I do agree with OP saying we need a Gundogan type of player but Gerrard and Lucas is the least of our problems right now. It's the player in front of them imo.

I'm still not convinced Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left, and Aspas has also been playing in front of them doesn't offer nothing in midfield so Gerrard and Lucas get overrun.

Let's not forget Gerrard is in his 30s, and Lucas is still trying to recapture some form from pre-injury.

I think playing with 9 men behind the ball makes the midfield duo look back. The midfield is quite fine and is dominant when we play our game. When we go back to defending zones with 9 men behind the ball, there a number of players that look clueless with Gerrard and Lucas included in that.

It's not the least of our problems at all. It's a big problem and one I was going to make a thread about myself before I was beaten to it. A midfield that can only control a game for 45 minutes is definitely a problem.

Also, the Lucas injury thing. It can't be an excuse any longer. He came back from his original injury 13 months ago and from his second injury 10 months ago. How long are we going to give up before we realise that he's not up to it? I've also explained in another post how we shouldn't be clinging on to that pre injury form considering we want to play a different system now.
The duo is not that big of a problem. In fact, the only problem is that there's no depth to cover them. If one of them gets shot, we're in big trouble. But at the end of the day, the main problem is the player in front of them.

They (Gerrard and Lucas) can control the game for longer than 45 minutes, they've shown that consistently from last season. Rodgers has changed his approach this season. He's came out and said it as well. We play a lot more defensive in the second half of games nowadays, and that's why they get overrun; we allow the opposition midfield to dominate possession. That's on Rodgers tactical game plan, rather than on Gerrard and Lucas.

Dude, Leiva is lucky he's still playing the game at a high level. The amount of times people come back from an ACL (not just in football but in other sports too) and show nothing from their previous form is common. Lucas is slowly getting back into his old form also adapting to a new style of game. We've had 4 different managers in the last 5 years. That's 5 different game styles. Lucas missed a lot of playing time last season because of injury. He was key in our second half form. (Just as much as Sturridge and Coutinho, Lucas came back in December and that's when our run started.) I'm aware you don't rate the guy, but he's one of our best and most important players whether you like it or not...
I know how bad the injury was, you don't have to tell me. But why are we putting Lucas before LFC? If a player isn't doing their job, and he isn't, get rid. Don't care if he's a nice guy, I don't care if he's had an injury, if you're not good enough to take LFC forward, you shouldn't be at the club.

The problem is not the depth, those 2 simply aren't good enough as a partnership. If the starting players aren't good enough it doesn't matter how much back up you have, they still won't be good enough. That's why we should have prioritised GK, CB, DM, LB and another attacker in the summer instead of packing out the squad with the likes of Aspas and Alberto.

Henderson, Coutinho and Sturridge  made us play significantly better. Lucas improved us because he's the only player at the club with any real experience as a DM, but that doesn't make him one of our best players. Out of a starting XI of SM, GJ, MS, DA, AC, LL, SG, JH, PC, LS and DS, Lucas should be the first to be gone. He's plays a vital position, but he doesn't do it well. There are at least 20 players we could bring in who could do that job better than him.

Different styles of play don't change the basics of playing defensive midfield. He's shown time and time again that he doesn't have those basics. Doesn't matter if he's playing in a 442, 433, 4231, 352, high line, deep line, pressing, standing off, zonal marking, man marking, the basics are the same. He's 26 and he doesn't have the basics.

I don't want to go on about him as much as I do, but until he's out of the team I'm going to have to post my frustrations somewhere.
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Post by Helmer Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:06 pm

Gerrard-Lucas Partnership - Page 2 Lucas11
I think El Jefe is talking about what I have highlighted with a circle, I guess you will have to open it in other link. (Btw, does anyone know how to overcome this problem of large image in GL, it always happens...OR is it a problem with GL website that it looks so)

But his stats are the best in min per tackles won column. Minutes per dribbled past is worst for Lucas among the group of players shown there. The complete analysis is as shown below:
http://eplindex.com/34672/lucas-lynchpin-stats-compared-to-rival-defensive-midfielders.html

I think I had read this long back but I thought he would improve with those stats in this season. So I am hoping that he will improve that because I dont see we have any other option till Jan window.

While in the following image, we can see Allen and others comparison:

Gerrard-Lucas Partnership - Page 2 Allen10
hmm

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Post by El Jefe Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:24 pm

^ Da gawd Sandro. What a player.

The understanding of when to press and when to back off is vital, especially when you have no pace. Masch was brilliant over 10 yards so he could afford to be very aggressive. Only ever pressed up high when he had decent cover as well, usually did with Alonso.
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Post by Red Alert Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:39 pm

He doesn't have the basics...? lol what.

How am I putting Lucas before Liverpool? He's one of our best players ffs. It's like asking why the likes of Gerrard and Suarez play every game. If you're at that talent, you play. It's as simple as that. Fair enough you don't rate him, but he does his role. The sooner you see that, the better. He is out of form from his high standards, but he will get better, as again, he just came back from a long term injury. And that's not excuses either. He has shown every game since he's been back that he will get to the level he was at once was.

The only "issue" on this partnership right now, is on Rodgers. It's a tactical decision that's letting us down. The fact that we defend in the second half, and let the opposition dictate the tempo is not on the duo. It's on Rodgers playing a more defensive approach to contain the opposition and to help grind out a win. And to be honest, I'd rather have a 2 goal cushion than try to defend 1-0. I also have no idea on why Henderson is not playing in the centre. Maybe we should blame Leiva there too... Fact is, our whole team looks nervous and don't look too confident when we play with 9 men behind the ball.

Is Lucas as good as Mascherano? I'd be one of the few to argue that he isn't, Mascherano for me was superior. He is after Didi, the best DM I've seen at Liverpool. With that said, Mascherano definitely had a helping hand from Alonso. But Lucas isn't like Javier. He's more of a fusion between Alonso and Masche.

The moment he's out of this side, I'd like to see your excuse on why we weren't good enough and why we couldn't play our game tbh.
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Post by El Jefe Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:46 pm

You're putting Lucas first by saying we should give him time when he's letting us down. He's not one of our best players, he's one of our weakest, he doesn't do his role well. Our defence gets exposed a lot because we don't have a top class DM, he's not great in the tackle, he's VERY slow, he's VERY weak, he chases the ball when he should stay in position (SWANSEA'S 2ND GOAL) and he gets dribbled past far too easily. Didi did it brilliantly, positionally excellent so he could shepherd runners wherever he wanted. Lucas can't jockey a man to save his life.

Out of form? He's been awful since he came back. Nobody is "out of form" for 10 months, that's just being a bad player.

And high standards? Really? He's been with us since 2007 and he's had ONE good season, plus a good games before he got injured. He hasn't shown that he's going to get back, don't be so *bleep* deluded. He's shown that he's positionally inept, hasn't got a clue when to press or hold and doesn't read the game at all. What are we going to do, give him another 10 months, that'd be nearly 2 years waiting for a player to return to acceptable form.

Lucas and Mascherano should never be compared. Mascherano was and is 10 times the player Lucas will ever be, no other way of saying it. And like Alonso, REALLY? He's a safe passer, Alonso is one of the best passers in the world. Stop kidding yourself.

Our record is better with him than without him because we have no other DM. Nobody else has experience in that role. Bring in a top class DM and we'll see the difference.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Awful again. We aren't going anywhere with this central midfield.

Nowhere near energetic and dynamic enough. Pedestrian pace and unimaginative.

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Post by Art Morte Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:16 pm

Natalie Portman wrote:Awful again. We aren't going anywhere with this central midfield.

Nowhere near energetic and dynamic enough. Pedestrian pace and unimaginative.
Totally agree.

Gerrard plays deeper than Lucas nowadays, and not just occasionally, all the time. Plus either his legs are gone or he thinks it's not part of his role to do much running out there. I'd be quite curious to see some 'distance covered' stats from that Southampton match on our team. But he is too happy to gather the ball near our CBs, pick out a semi-long pass to either flank and then stay back to see whether he considers it worthwhile to join the attack or not.

But he is still class. So I'd drop Lucas first and play a more attack-minded CM in his place - if we just had any who's good enough.
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Post by El Jefe Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:31 pm

What confuses me so much is that we were lead to believe that Rodgers wanted to build a team that could dominate a game, but it's over a year since he took over and we still can't do it consistently. That's 5 league games and our midfield has looked poor in all 5.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:40 pm

El Jefe wrote:What confuses me so much is that we were lead to believe that Rodgers wanted to build a team that could dominate a game, but it's over a year since he took over and we still can't do it consistently. That's 5 league games and our midfield has looked poor in all 5.
I think it's obvious that Gerrard - Lucas partnership isn't working at the moment. The big question now is that has Rodgers got the cojones to start experimenting by dropping one of them - especially if it begins to look further into the season that it's Gerrard who should be sat on the bench. The only problem is that our CM options are Allen and Alberto. That is just dismal.
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Post by El Jefe Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:13 pm

And Henderson.

------ Gerrard --
Henderson - Allen

That'd be my midfield, gives us better passers, more mobility, better pressing. Suarez, Coutinho when fit and Sturridge in front of them. Playing without a DM worries me but having Henderson and Allen sharing the workload would hopefully negate the need for Lucas. Henderson is quite switched on and would be able to cover the right when Johnson goes forward.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:21 pm

It just seems that Gerrard's CAM days are over. In my opinion he should be the DM and others playing in front of him.
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Post by Red Alert Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:05 am

El Jefe wrote:You're putting Lucas first by saying we should give him time when he's letting us down. He's not one of our best players, he's one of our weakest, he doesn't do his role well. Our defence gets exposed a lot because we don't have a top class DM, he's not great in the tackle, he's VERY slow, he's VERY weak, he chases the ball when he should stay in position (SWANSEA'S 2ND GOAL) and he gets dribbled past far too easily. Didi did it brilliantly, positionally excellent so he could shepherd runners wherever he wanted. Lucas can't jockey a man to save his life.

Out of form? He's been awful since he came back. Nobody is "out of form" for 10 months, that's just being a bad player.

And high standards? Really? He's been with us since 2007 and he's had ONE good season, plus a good games before he got injured. He hasn't shown that he's going to get back, don't be so *bleep* deluded. He's shown that he's positionally inept, hasn't got a clue when to press or hold and doesn't read the game at all. What are we going to do, give him another 10 months, that'd be nearly 2 years waiting for a player to return to acceptable form.

Lucas and Mascherano should never be compared. Mascherano was and is 10 times the player Lucas will ever be, no other way of saying it. And like Alonso, REALLY? He's a safe passer, Alonso is one of the best passers in the world. Stop kidding yourself.

Our record is better with him than without him because we have no other DM. Nobody else has experience in that role. Bring in a top class DM and we'll see the difference.
You defend Agger, stating he's our best CB after being poor for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and yet Lucas is shit because he's not been playing at the level he was before he was injury because he's been 'decent' for ten months? Double standards, eh. It's clear you hate the guy, there's no point arguing about it.

He's not our problem. The sooner people realise that, the better. Our problem is the "CAM", not the duo. With that said, they were both poor yesterday. But they can't take all the blame, the whole team was shit.

And we don't play with "DMs" under Rodgers.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:25 am

something-red wrote:
El Jefe wrote:You're putting Lucas first by saying we should give him time when he's letting us down. He's not one of our best players, he's one of our weakest, he doesn't do his role well. Our defence gets exposed a lot because we don't have a top class DM, he's not great in the tackle, he's VERY slow, he's VERY weak, he chases the ball when he should stay in position (SWANSEA'S 2ND GOAL) and he gets dribbled past far too easily. Didi did it brilliantly, positionally excellent so he could shepherd runners wherever he wanted. Lucas can't jockey a man to save his life.

Out of form? He's been awful since he came back. Nobody is "out of form" for 10 months, that's just being a bad player.

And high standards? Really? He's been with us since 2007 and he's had ONE good season, plus a good games before he got injured. He hasn't shown that he's going to get back, don't be so *bleep* deluded. He's shown that he's positionally inept, hasn't got a clue when to press or hold and doesn't read the game at all. What are we going to do, give him another 10 months, that'd be nearly 2 years waiting for a player to return to acceptable form.

Lucas and Mascherano should never be compared. Mascherano was and is 10 times the player Lucas will ever be, no other way of saying it. And like Alonso, REALLY? He's a safe passer, Alonso is one of the best passers in the world. Stop kidding yourself.

Our record is better with him than without him because we have no other DM. Nobody else has experience in that role. Bring in a top class DM and we'll see the difference.
You defend Agger, stating he's our best CB after being poor for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and yet Lucas is shit because he's not been playing at the level he was before he was injury because he's been 'decent' for ten months? Double standards, eh. It's clear you hate the guy, there's no point arguing about it.

He's not our problem. The sooner people realise that, the better. Our problem is the "CAM", not the duo. With that said, they were both poor yesterday. But they can't take all the blame, the whole team was shit.

And we don't play with "DMs" under Rodgers.  
Massively disagree. I posted it in another forum, and I'll copy it here. That's why Lucas-Gerrard partnership is our biggest concern at the moment.

The most concerning thing for me is our central midfield and how BR seems reluctant to try different variations there. 33 y.o Gerrard and Lucas partnership looks nice on paper but it lacks energy, dynamism, imagination and goalscoring threat. They both struggle against any team that presses us and it was the case today. We are nowhere near composed enough with the ball in midfield and our midfield play is either extremely rushed, or is in pedestrian pace.
In a midfield 2, when you don't play a proper #10, at least one of the midfielders should make the occasional run into opposition box, make off the ball runs to create space for other offensive players, and to add a goal-scoring threat. Neither Gerrard nor Lucas are doing this at the time, and it makes it a lot more difficult for us to create in the final third.

Hopefully Luis being back and occupying a couple of defenders will allow more space to our other attacking players. But central midfield is an area we desperately need an upgrade in starting XI with next window and I hope BR and the club scouts are looking into this issue.

We are crying for a Gundogan type of player. A midfield who can get his foot on the ball, retain it under pressure, go on mazy runs, create and control the tempo of the game.

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Post by Red Alert Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:48 am

Lucas and Gerrard HAVE showed that it will work this season though. And they showed it last season too. Problem is, Rodgers is ALWAYS changing the way we play in the second half this season, and we go from dominating and attacking in the first half to sitting back and letting the opposition midfield dominate us in the second half after we score the first putting extra pressure on ourselves and on our midfield.

It was a lot different yesterday. Rodgers is to blame imo. The line up was comical. The defence wasn't linked to the midfield. The midfield wasn't linked to the attack. We lacked creativity and we weren't playing as fluid as we normally do. The attack wasn't making those runs, so the midfield struggled to pass the ball forward. The full backs weren't helping the attack, they were sitting quite deep so we couldn't recycle the ball out wide. The whole team was a joke.

We need to sign a Mkhitaryan / Eriksen type in January. I couldn't care less if we overpay as long as we bring in the right player. We need someone to link the midfield to attack, create something, do something ffs. I called this game as a lost the moment Coutinho was injured. The fact that Rodgers played four CBs made it even worse. I'd love to see how we play with Suarez in the team. He as the "CAM" won't work either. We need him in Henderson's position on the right, or drop Sturridge to the right hand side and play him as a false 9.
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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:17 am

Art Morte wrote:It just seems that Gerrard's CAM days are over. In my opinion he should be the DM and others playing in front of him.
That is a recipe for disaster lol.. he can't defend for the life of him, especially during counters. Playing him as the DM will never ever work.

To put it in simple words, we massively lack creativity in the SQUAD and in the midfield especially. Who do we have in the team that can create chances on a regular basis, apart from Coutinho to an extent and Suarez?
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Post by El Jefe Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:28 pm

something-red wrote:
El Jefe wrote:You're putting Lucas first by saying we should give him time when he's letting us down. He's not one of our best players, he's one of our weakest, he doesn't do his role well. Our defence gets exposed a lot because we don't have a top class DM, he's not great in the tackle, he's VERY slow, he's VERY weak, he chases the ball when he should stay in position (SWANSEA'S 2ND GOAL) and he gets dribbled past far too easily. Didi did it brilliantly, positionally excellent so he could shepherd runners wherever he wanted. Lucas can't jockey a man to save his life.

Out of form? He's been awful since he came back. Nobody is "out of form" for 10 months, that's just being a bad player.

And high standards? Really? He's been with us since 2007 and he's had ONE good season, plus a good games before he got injured. He hasn't shown that he's going to get back, don't be so *bleep* deluded. He's shown that he's positionally inept, hasn't got a clue when to press or hold and doesn't read the game at all. What are we going to do, give him another 10 months, that'd be nearly 2 years waiting for a player to return to acceptable form.

Lucas and Mascherano should never be compared. Mascherano was and is 10 times the player Lucas will ever be, no other way of saying it. And like Alonso, REALLY? He's a safe passer, Alonso is one of the best passers in the world. Stop kidding yourself.

Our record is better with him than without him because we have no other DM. Nobody else has experience in that role. Bring in a top class DM and we'll see the difference.
You defend Agger, stating he's our best CB after being poor for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and yet Lucas is shit because he's not been playing at the level he was before he was injury because he's been 'decent' for ten months? Double standards, eh. It's clear you hate the guy, there's no point arguing about it.

He's not our problem. The sooner people realise that, the better. Our problem is the "CAM", not the duo. With that said, they were both poor yesterday. But they can't take all the blame, the whole team was shit.

And we don't play with "DMs" under Rodgers.  
If Agger isn't our best CB, who is? None of our CB's have played well consistently for a long time. Not surprising considering they get hardly any protection around them.

And Lucas hasn't been decent for 10 months, he's been awful. How can the problem be anything other than the midfield when we've been getting DOMINATED in 4 out of 5 league games? We can't control games at all. Southampton won that game yesterday because they stopped us from playing, they did that because they pressed us high up the pitch and didn't allow us to get out, they could press so well because they always had either Schneiderlin and Wanyama behind them. Their midfielders allowed them to win the game, they outplayed our pair.

Yes we do play with a DM. LUCAS. Lucas is supposed to be playing DM. He doesn't resemble one at all because he's clueless, but we do play with a DM.
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:29 am

El Jefe wrote:^ Da gawd Sandro. What a player.

The understanding of when to press and when to back off is vital, especially when you have no pace. Masch was brilliant over 10 yards so he could afford to be very aggressive. Only ever pressed up high when he had decent cover as well, usually did with Alonso.
Javier Mascherano was more fast than 10 yard rush, he could get up the whole pitch dam fast, it just his body shape he did not look like he was running,

don't why you think Lucas is the weak link in centre midfield, when it has been Gerrard who been most poorest centre midfield we had since Rodgers been here,

Rodgers what a deep midfield to be the keep of possession & give defensive cover out of all are centre midfield's Lucas best at keep possession from deep, help the back 4, good at read the game & so on

it the rest who play with  Lucas,

Gerrard is not the boss any more as a box-to-box midfielder/free role attacking midfielder doe's ok job as defensive midfielder but not as good as  Lucas nor has got the fitnees to last a whole 90 mins nor the pace any more


Henderson is a  box-to-box midfielder when he play the role he look good but he always get play out of  position also he still raw

Allen what is his best  position ?, much more raw Henderson

every one think Coutinho is best as a centre attacking midfielder but is he realy best there

Alberto & Aspas what are there  best position still to eary to know & are going to be good enough ?

so we got one good defensive midfielder, one ok back up defensive midfielder, one raw box-to-box midfielder, three unknown players position, one player who look best out wide than in the centre
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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:37 am

El Jefe wrote:
something-red wrote:
El Jefe wrote:You're putting Lucas first by saying we should give him time when he's letting us down. He's not one of our best players, he's one of our weakest, he doesn't do his role well. Our defence gets exposed a lot because we don't have a top class DM, he's not great in the tackle, he's VERY slow, he's VERY weak, he chases the ball when he should stay in position (SWANSEA'S 2ND GOAL) and he gets dribbled past far too easily. Didi did it brilliantly, positionally excellent so he could shepherd runners wherever he wanted. Lucas can't jockey a man to save his life.

Out of form? He's been awful since he came back. Nobody is "out of form" for 10 months, that's just being a bad player.

And high standards? Really? He's been with us since 2007 and he's had ONE good season, plus a good games before he got injured. He hasn't shown that he's going to get back, don't be so *bleep* deluded. He's shown that he's positionally inept, hasn't got a clue when to press or hold and doesn't read the game at all. What are we going to do, give him another 10 months, that'd be nearly 2 years waiting for a player to return to acceptable form.

Lucas and Mascherano should never be compared. Mascherano was and is 10 times the player Lucas will ever be, no other way of saying it. And like Alonso, REALLY? He's a safe passer, Alonso is one of the best passers in the world. Stop kidding yourself.

Our record is better with him than without him because we have no other DM. Nobody else has experience in that role. Bring in a top class DM and we'll see the difference.
You defend Agger, stating he's our best CB after being poor for EIGHTEEN MONTHS and yet Lucas is shit because he's not been playing at the level he was before he was injury because he's been 'decent' for ten months? Double standards, eh. It's clear you hate the guy, there's no point arguing about it.

He's not our problem. The sooner people realise that, the better. Our problem is the "CAM", not the duo. With that said, they were both poor yesterday. But they can't take all the blame, the whole team was shit.

And we don't play with "DMs" under Rodgers.  
If Agger isn't our best CB, who is? None of our CB's have played well consistently for a long time. Not surprising considering they get hardly any protection around them.

And Lucas hasn't been decent for 10 months, he's been awful. How can the problem be anything other than the midfield when we've been getting DOMINATED in 4 out of 5 league games? We can't control games at all. Southampton won that game yesterday because they stopped us from playing, they did that because they pressed us high up the pitch and didn't allow us to get out, they could press so well because they always had either Schneiderlin and Wanyama behind them. Their midfielders allowed them to win the game, they outplayed our pair.

Yes we do play with a DM. LUCAS. Lucas is supposed to be playing DM. He doesn't resemble one at all because he's clueless, but we do play with a DM.  
Not sure if you've seen Sakho, but he is quality. He will be world class in the future and is quite comfortably our best defender right now. That is if he's playing in the centre and not as a fullback. We got very lucky he wanted to leave PSG for us to get him.
Skrtel is also a better defender than Agger.
Jamie was just as good before he retired. Agger is lucky he knows how to pass the ball out of defence or he would of been dropped ages ago. He's been average defensively for a while now.

Lucas hasn't been awful. You have an agenda against him, you really do.

I'll put this in caps, so you actually read it this time. It's not as if I've stated it like 10 times since the start of the season, but *bleep*. WE'VE BEEN DOMINATED IN MIDFIELD BECAUSE RODGERS HAS DECIDED (YES, HE'S CAME OUT AND STATED IT AS WELL) THAT WE PLAY A LOT DEEPER TO DEFEND ZONES ETC TO CONTAIN THE OPPOSITION. THIS HELPS PLAY OFF THE COUNTER THAT RODGERS WANTS. SO WE HAVE 9 MEN BEHIND THE BALL AND THE MIDFIELD PLAYS DEEPER. THIS LETS THE OPPOSITION PLAY ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE ASPAS PLAYING IN THE HOLE; HE'S NOT A MIDFIELDER FFS. SO NO, IT'S NOT LUCAS' FAULT THAT "WE'VE BEEN DOMINATED 4 TIMES OUT 5". THAT'S RODGERS AND HIS TACTICS.

Soton won the game yesterday because Agger again had a lapse of concentration defensively and scored off a set piece. All they had to do was play on the counter after that. With us being clueless tactically, and NO players performing (yes, I admit, Lucas was part of this) we weren't ever going to get a result. Especially when the whole team lacks creativity. So no, Soton DIDN'T dominate us, we lost it because we were stupid and played poor on the day.

And no, Lucas does NOT play as a DM. Rodgers has NEVER played with a DM at Liverpool, or at Swansea. I'm not sure if he did at Reading but I didn't watch him there so I can't say if he did or not there. With that said, it's a myth generated from the media / RAWK or wherever you read it that Liverpool plays with a DM under Rodgers. The only reason our record is better with Lucas in the team is because he gives us balance and he can help out defensively.
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:04 am

the balance in central  midfielder has not been right since Rodgers has been here,

1) Rodgers 1st year what 1 deep midfielder & 2  box-to-box midfielders, he find Gerrard could not play that role & play both Allen/Sahin out of position, was not will to give  Henderson a run out as a  box-to-box midfielder, it coast us a lost of points & we end lose more games

2) then instead of drop Gerrard he push him so deep with Lucas then think that a striker would good thing to play in front of them, what levies so many gaps of course are  central midfield is going get over run

3) with Lucas more of read of game than a physical, pace player to have play with a player in Gerrard  who lost his  physical &  pace it not help, what make even more hard with are central  midfield we got no back ups & we still miss that physical, pace player in 1st team

4) Suso look like he can a real good central midfield, buy Will Hughes would he be good at the  physical &  pace side of the game ?
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:41 pm

Both of them in there is overkill as both are playing very deep, collecting the ball off the defenders/keepe when we're trying to be the front foot,because right now we have a two man midfield, not three, there so deep, there's not enough attacking contribution,

Soton' had nothing to fear from Lucas and Gerrard om Saturday. Knowing if they pressed in the right areas and kept a good shape they'd have a good chance of a draw at least, maybe nick a goal from a set piece

right now are best pick when every one is fit & available it should be as Lucas playing deep
Lucas
Henderson Allen

then you can have henderson /allen in there further up pushing on & be much more much more energy there.
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Post by El Jefe Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:27 am

vegfootball wrote:
El Jefe wrote:^ Da gawd Sandro. What a player.

The understanding of when to press and when to back off is vital, especially when you have no pace. Masch was brilliant over 10 yards so he could afford to be very aggressive. Only ever pressed up high when he had decent cover as well, usually did with Alonso.
Javier Mascherano was more fast than 10 yard rush, he could get up the whole pitch dam fast, it just his body shape he did not look like he was running,

don't why you think Lucas is the weak link in centre midfield, when it has been Gerrard who been most poorest centre midfield we had since Rodgers been here,

Rodgers what a deep midfield to be the keep of possession & give defensive cover out of all are centre midfield's Lucas best at keep possession from deep, help the back 4, good at read the game & so on

it the rest who play with  Lucas,
Gerrard was much better than Lucas last season. As was Henderson. And Allen before his shoulder injury. Lucas was woeful last season and has been this year as well.

Allen is better at keeping possession than Lucas, Henderson is just as good if not better when played deep in midfield and Lucas isn't fit to lace Gerrard's boots when it comes to passing (or anything else).

He doesn't give defensive cover, he gets dribbled past more often than he should, he doesn't win a high % of tackles and misses lots of interceptions.


vegfootball wrote:Gerrard is not the boss any more as a box-to-box midfielder/free role attacking midfielder doe's ok job as defensive midfielder but not as good as  Lucas nor has got the fitnees to last a whole 90 mins nor the pace any more
Gerrard doesn't even play as a defensive midfielder. Look, no offence but it's quite clear that you don't know much about the role of a DM and I can't really be bothered explaining it all.
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