Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

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Post by El Jefe Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:43 pm

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I have heard about Matuidi that he is a beast but never got to see him play. Hasnt he started the last game for PSG hmm, I doubt he can be taken away from PSG. I hope Sakho can convince him,
probably sportczy knows more about the situation
I've seen him a few times and he looked really good. PSG would be idiots to let him go though.

vegfootball wrote:
Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?
In my opinion we need a heavy strong enforcer in central midfield and a creative midfielder

My opinion enforcer should be Geoffrey Kondogbia

And the creative Alan Dzagoev
Kondogbia moved to Monaco in the summer.

For the money Dzagoev would cost we could find someone to suit our needs better, don't think we need an expensive attacking midfield player if we carry on with 3-4-1-2. Sorting out the middle 2 is more important and there's better options than him.

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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:17 am

El Jefe wrote:
HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I have heard about Matuidi that he is a beast but never got to see him play. Hasnt he started the last game for PSG hmm, I doubt he can be taken away from PSG. I hope Sakho can convince him,
probably sportczy knows more about the situation
I've seen him a few times and he looked really good. PSG would be idiots to let him go though.

vegfootball wrote:
Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?
In my opinion we need a heavy strong enforcer in central midfield and a creative midfielder

My opinion enforcer should be Geoffrey Kondogbia

And the creative Alan Dzagoev
Kondogbia moved to Monaco in the summer.

For the money Dzagoev would cost we could find someone to suit our needs better, don't think we need an expensive attacking midfield player if we carry on with 3-4-1-2. Sorting out the middle 2 is more important and there's better options than him.
Alan Dzagoev has show he can get 10 goals from central midfield, we got no goal score/creative midfielder,

Gerrard is past it & we need look for someone to take over

Lucas is ok defensive midfielder

Allen is the playmaker but got a lot to show if he can make here

Henderson is a box to box midfielder,

so Alan Dzagoev imo would be in my top 4 list for goal score/ creative midfielder we need
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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:11 am

Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?
We need a CAM.
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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:14 am

El Jefe wrote:
something-red wrote:Again, it's more Rodgers fault than the Lucas-Gerrard partnership on why we get overrun.

We've been unconvincing in ALL of our games this season. We've played 10 different styles and we're only 8-10 games in (all comps). It's not just our midfield that's been poor. Our midfield is actually good when we play OUR GAME. But we're not playing our game this season. Our defence has sort of steadied, but we're still horrid at set pieces. We have no creativity from midfield. We have no link from midfield to attack.

We went from being a very fluid team to shooting ourselves in the foot and making problems. Go back to how we were playing in the second half of the season ffs.
Our midfield has been good when we play our game, but we can't play our game for 90 minutes because the midfield isn't good enough to.
No that's Rodgers fault for dropping the whole team (including the midfield) deeper and playing on the counter. We haven't had a chance playing 90 minutes because there's always a tactical change when we score. The team is getting the results granted, but it's not exactly working. The whole team is unorganised and we've relied on individual brilliance all season.
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Post by McAgger Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:19 am

We definitely need a versatile CM. Sort of a box to box mobile presence in the middle. One would think Hendo fits the role to a tee but for some reason BR hasn't trusted him in that role. I'd argue the we need a CAM as well but I'm confident Suso will be that man next season. Need a CM badly though. Can't wait for Rossiter/Chirivella to get older already.
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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:36 am

The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:37 am

McAgger wrote:We definitely need a versatile CM. Sort of a box to box mobile presence in the middle. One would think Hendo fits the role to a tee but for some reason BR hasn't trusted him in that role. I'd argue the we need a CAM as well but I'm confident Suso will be that man next season. Need a CM badly though. Can't wait for Rossiter/Chirivella to get older already.
don't get why Jordan Henderson doesn't get consistent run out in best position as a box to box midfielder every time he plays a role he looks good confident player and as a team we look stronger in the middle,

So far I'm not convinced by anything Rodgers does,

As far as Suso goes he looks like he's turning into the new Fàbregas, great technically good on the ball variety of passing, just needs to score more, we need desperately when Suso returns an enforcer to play with him, and I hope to God we don't sell Suso
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Post by Nishankly Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:40 am

We'll play Hendo-Gerrard next game, Sterling wide. Im quite sure.
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:40 am

something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
What I'm reading and seeing clips of Suso it looks like he's the main man for Almeria, apparently he has more dribble per game than Messi
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Post by McAgger Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:43 am

something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
Completely disagree I don't think Shelvey is at all what we need. He simply lacks the quality and the IQ to be a starter for us.

As for Suso, you're correct, he's playing on the right but any man with two eyes could see his best position is in the middle. He drifts inwards towards the end of every match. I'll be very satisfied with Coutinho, Suso, and Alberto as the three options at AM for next season.
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Post by ExtremistEnigma Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:44 am

It's clear that we need a physical presence in the midfield (in the mould of Yaya Toure), given our performances and tactics so far this season. A box-to-box midfielder is extremely required. As I said previously, Lucas-Gerrard pivot is not physically strong enough and neither defensively.


Last edited by ExtremistEnigma on Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:44 am

Nishank wrote:We'll play Hendo-Gerrard next game, Sterling wide. Im quite sure.
The most logical thing would have Škrtel dropped Touré replacing him to partner Sakho then Wisdom coming into right back position

Then a four-man midfield of Moses on the right in the middle Gerrard and Henderson then on the left Sterling

Finally Suárez best position in a free role of Sturridge

Likelihood of this happening properly not much
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:49 am

McAgger wrote:
something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
Completely disagree I don't think Shelvey is at all what we need. He simply lacks the quality and the IQ to be a starter for us.

As for Suso, you're correct, he's playing on the right but any man with two eyes could see his best position is in the middle. He drifts inwards towards the end of every match. I'll be very satisfied with Coutinho, Suso, and Alberto as the three options at AM for next season.
Shelvey was getting so much abuse from Liverpool fans thinking he was not good enough, didn't help that he had to managers playing him out of position what a shocker,

Shelvey Is a box to box/playmaker you watch his early career at Charlton and reserves where he would be all over the pitch demanding the ball, variety of passing, running into the box late, good technical strike of the ball, great free kicks,

He's starting thriving at Swansea where he is allowed to play his more natural game, and the more senior players are looking to him as he has so calming influence on the ball,

Plus he has more experience at a higher level than Allen & Alberto and in my opinion a higher ceiling of potential
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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:52 am

McAgger wrote:
something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
Completely disagree I don't think Shelvey is at all what we need. He simply lacks the quality and the IQ to be a starter for us.

As for Suso, you're correct, he's playing on the right but any man with two eyes could see his best position is in the middle. He drifts inwards towards the end of every match. I'll be very satisfied with Coutinho, Suso, and Alberto as the three options at AM for next season.
Shelvey is exactly what we need right now or a player in that mould. We lack a midfielder that can play in the final third as well as in the middle. Gerrard and Lucas are suffering from this, as is the final third as they get no service. Look at all our goals this year, I can only think of one that was well worked as a team. And that was against Villa I think it was when Sturridge made a nice run, and was dancing in the opposition box before tucking it in on his right foot. The rest have came from individual brilliance or well, from yesterdays game in Luis / Sturridge. Jonjo would of played a role this year. Instead, we have wide players that do not know when to pass the pass ball in Moses playing centrally, and Aspas who has no idea how to play the CF role play there. Shelvey is playing the role at Swansea, so let's not just say he's not good enough and he's not smart enough.

I also think you underestimate the amount of difference between playing in the middle than on the flank. I won't be surprised if Suso or Coutinho stick to the flank by the time they're 24 ish before moving to the centre. It's like adapting to a whole new position despite playing the same role.
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Post by ExtremistEnigma Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:04 am

I love Shelvey, but as of now he can't function in a two-man midfield pivot. He just lacks the maturity to play there. Best used as a #10.
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Post by vegfootball Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:58 am

ExtremistEnigma wrote:I love Shelvey, but as of now he can't function in a two-man midfield pivot. He just lacks the maturity to play there. Best used as a #10.
It always amazes me how Liverpool plans treat young players, some young players from the age of 18 to 20 are not quite ready to play professional football at the highest level and needs loaning out to get the valuable experience needed

Regarding Jonjo Shelvey every Liverpool fan made the same excuse saying that he lacked experience, how many 21-year-olds have over 120+ games playing as a professional player and European experience over three years, as well as being concrete place for the under 21 national team
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Post by Art Morte Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:34 am

I don't think Shelvey is what we need, he is too immobile himself to fix our immobility issue with the Gerrard-Lucas partnership. That said, swapping him for Alberto isn't looking like a masterstroke so far.

Momo Diame from West Ham could come easy in January. Shouldn't cost a fortune and he would do, imo, until next summer when it's easier to do business. The fact that we've done a lot of business with West Ham lately - and that they probably owe us money for those transfers - could make negotiations easier.

Marco van Ginkel on loan from Chelsea could be another doable stop-gap solution.

Or maybe put in a bid for Sandro now that he seems to be a benchwarmer at Tottenham.
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Post by Helmer Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:17 am

I think we should get over with Shelvey, he can not be a solution for us right now as CM. He is only good enough for Swans. There is no doubt that he could grow to be a good CM as he matures, a loan move would have been better but I am quite we let him go. For us the margin for error is so tiny, we would have suffered with him as CM. As we have seen he is not a true CAM.

I doubt chelsea would let anyone go on loan to us. Laughing I hope before Alberto becomes another Assaidi, BR should better start playing him.

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Post by Red Alert Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:49 am

ExtremistEnigma wrote:I love Shelvey, but as of now he can't function in a two-man midfield pivot. He just lacks the maturity to play there. Best used as a #10.
That's what I'm talking about... go to the start of this thread. I've also been banging it on since the start of the season. The #10 or CAM role whatever you want to call it is the problem for us right now.

Gerrard and Lucas are not the sole problem this season. It's been the player in front of them time and time again yet Gerrard and Lucas are getting all the blame. Shelvey is needed for the CAM role now is what I meant, as Moses and Aspas can't play that role at all. I'm also not convinced that Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left. Anyway, it's affecting our whole game. The CAM is basically the most important part of Rodgers system. It's what links the midfield to attack. It brings fluidity into the team. It's always been apart of the Liverpool way and has been key of our success in the past. There's a reason we targeted Mkhitaryan in the summer. We needed that link. Henderson was that link for us last season, but is stuck on the right hand side this year for some reason. A CAM is what is most needed right now.
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Post by El Jefe Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:28 pm

something-red wrote:
El Jefe wrote:
something-red wrote:Again, it's more Rodgers fault than the Lucas-Gerrard partnership on why we get overrun.

We've been unconvincing in ALL of our games this season. We've played 10 different styles and we're only 8-10 games in (all comps). It's not just our midfield that's been poor. Our midfield is actually good when we play OUR GAME. But we're not playing our game this season. Our defence has sort of steadied, but we're still horrid at set pieces. We have no creativity from midfield. We have no link from midfield to attack.

We went from being a very fluid team to shooting ourselves in the foot and making problems. Go back to how we were playing in the second half of the season ffs.
Our midfield has been good when we play our game, but we can't play our game for 90 minutes because the midfield isn't good enough to.
No that's Rodgers fault for dropping the whole team (including the midfield) deeper and playing on the counter. We haven't had a chance playing 90 minutes because there's always a tactical change when we score. The team is getting the results granted, but it's not exactly working. The whole team is unorganised and we've relied on individual brilliance all season.
Gerrard and Lucas don't have the legs to play on the front foot for 90 minutes. It's quite clear.

something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
Shelvey is literally the exact opposite of what we need, poor positionally, erratic passing, error prone, slow. We need someone better mentally and physically, someone with more tactical discipline and someone with more legs.

vegfootball wrote:
McAgger wrote:
something-red wrote:The awkward moment when Jonjo Shelvey is exactly what you need but you sold him off for Luis Alberto who can't even get a game. Laughing

Suso won't be a first team player for us next season. On Suso though. Where is Suso playing this year? In the centre or on the right? I'd be surprised if he comes and plays a central role after his return.
Completely disagree I don't think Shelvey is at all what we need. He simply lacks the quality and the IQ to be a starter for us.

As for Suso, you're correct, he's playing on the right but any man with two eyes could see his best position is in the middle. He drifts inwards towards the end of every match. I'll be very satisfied with Coutinho, Suso, and Alberto as the three options at AM for next season.
Shelvey was getting so much abuse from Liverpool fans thinking he was not good enough, didn't help that he had to managers playing him out of position what a shocker,

Shelvey Is a box to box/playmaker you watch his early career at Charlton and reserves where he would be all over the pitch demanding the ball, variety of passing, running into the box late, good technical strike of the ball, great free kicks,

He's starting thriving at Swansea where he is allowed to play his more natural game, and the more senior players are looking to him as he has so calming influence on the ball,

Plus he has more experience at a higher level than Allen & Alberto and in my opinion a higher ceiling of potential
You've almost proven my point for me. "Charlton and reserves". He wasn't able to translate that to first team football. Not saying he's a bad player, but Gerrard or Lucas next to Shelvey would be atrocious.

Calm? Calm is the last word I'd use to describe Shelvey. He's rash.

Art Morte wrote:I don't think Shelvey is what we need, he is too immobile himself to fix our immobility issue with the Gerrard-Lucas partnership. That said, swapping him for Alberto isn't looking like a masterstroke so far.
Agree with this, Shelvey is slow in his mind and body. Last thing we need is someone like that.

Art Morte wrote:Momo Diame from West Ham could come easy in January. Shouldn't cost a fortune and he would do, imo, until next summer when it's easier to do business. The fact that we've done a lot of business with West Ham lately - and that they probably owe us money for those transfers - could make negotiations easier.
I think Diame is an awful player. He has a good game every so often, but he's awful technically an very inconsistent. He's looked good against us but that's because we can't deal with any runners from midfield, as I've pointed out to people before.

Art Morte wrote:Marco van Ginkel on loan from Chelsea could be another doable stop-gap solution.

Or maybe put in a bid for Sandro now that he seems to be a benchwarmer at Tottenham.
Think van Ginkel just got a bad injury didn't he? And Sandro is coming back from almost a year out, they'll probably just be easing him back in.

something-red wrote:That's what I'm talking about... go to the start of this thread. I've also been banging it on since the start of the season. The #10 or CAM role whatever you want to call it is the problem for us right now.

Gerrard and Lucas are not the sole problem this season. It's been the player in front of them time and time again yet Gerrard and Lucas are getting all the blame. Shelvey is needed for the CAM role now is what I meant, as Moses and Aspas can't play that role at all. I'm also not convinced that Coutinho is better in the middle than he is on the left. Anyway, it's affecting our whole game. The CAM is basically the most important part of Rodgers system. It's what links the midfield to attack. It brings fluidity into the team. It's always been apart of the Liverpool way and has been key of our success in the past. There's a reason we targeted Mkhitaryan in the summer. We needed that link. Henderson was that link for us last season, but is stuck on the right hand side this year for some reason. A CAM is what is most needed right now.
We've played Henderson in front of Gerrard and Lucas. We've played Suarez in front of Gerrard and Lucas. We've played Coutinho in front of Gerrard and Lucas. None of it has been very good. Don't you see the trend? Those 2 are a poor partnership. Gerrard can clearly offer much more to our team than Lucas so it's blatantly obvious who needs to be dropped.[/quote][/quote]
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:30 pm

Shelvey Laughing , Van Ginkel Laughing , Some of the names in this thread Laughing

:facepalm:

We need to go all out for someone like Lars Bender (Hyypia would sooner sell to us than Arsenal), Matuidi (contract running out, we have good contacts with PSG after Sakho deal), or Nainggolan.

A all action midfielder with game intelligence. Something Gerrard was a few years ago.

Paulinho would have been absolutely perfect for us (in hindsight)

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Post by El Jefe Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:39 pm

Lars is a great shout. Brilliant at DM and going box to box.

After Gerrard retires or has to take a reduced role I'd love to see 2 players like the ones you've mentioned.
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Post by Art Morte Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:50 am

I don't think we can get a big name in January, so a stop-gap solution would be fine, imo.
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Post by Helmer Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:45 am

Lars Bender wont go anywhere in this Jan window, he is having a good season with Bayer. also I am sure Arsenal wont spend so much money on a player like him. Because leverkusen have no need to sell, so they will demand more than he is actually worth.

But Lars Bender is surely a type of player we can target.

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Post by vegfootball Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:54 am

what about Cheik Tioté as back up, i know he not reached his full potential but he is the type of player we missing in our squad and the experience he has the premiership could be good buy
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Post by McAgger Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:35 am

lol at Tiote. Spearing would be better ha

I'm a big fan of Nainggolan, I think he's exactly what we're looking for in midfield as he's very similar to Vidal/Gundogan. Plus he plays for Cagliari, doubt he'd be very expensive.
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