Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

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Post by Red Alert Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:58 am

Was Britton a DM when Rodgers was at Swansea? That's essentially Lucas' role now. Rodgers calls them "controllers"; they're not defensive midfielders. Their job on the ball is to dictate the tempo, and recycle possession around. Off the ball, ALL midfielders are supposed to help win the ball, it's not solely down to Lucas.

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Post by El Jefe Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:02 pm

something-red wrote:Off the ball, ALL midfielders are supposed to help win the ball, it's not solely down to Lucas.
Winning the ball isn't the job of the DM so this is irrelevant.



On another note, saw these quotes today

“But I was probably as disappointed as I’ve ever been because we played counter-attack football and we didn’t keep the ball so well.

“I felt today that in the final third of the pitch, it was hard to argue with the fact that we were outstanding – the movement, the combination play to arrive in there. But we’ve still got a lot of work to do behind that because the lack of control in the game was disappointing.

Look at the bits in bold. Rodgers clearly wants more control of games. He doesn't want to be sitting deep and playing on the counter. Can't remember who it was saying that Gerrard and Lucas were just following instructions but this proves my point.

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Post by Red Alert Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:47 am

In one ear, straight out the other. And it was I who said that. We did play with 9 men behind the ball for a reason when I said it, considering Rodgers said the same thing in his own press conference post game. We defended in "zones". He also said something about maintaining fitness for a massive push in the second half of the season, I can't remember the exact words he used.

And technically, winning the ball and getting the ball back in the feet of your teammates is one of the few jobs of a DM. Lucas' hasn't played as a DM this season. His main role is as the controller to dictate the tempo and get the ball in Gerrard's feet. It's hard to keep possession when you don't have a CAM, and it's quite difficult getting the ball to the players in the final third. (Although we do look dangerous when they get the ball at their feet.)

How exactly do you expect to control the game when you have the likes of Aspas and/or Moses playing the number 10 position? We're playing deeper because we have no number 10 in the squad (unless you want to count Coutinho there, but he's not even fit). Our whole system currently is based on a player we currently lack and need in the summer.


Last edited by something-red on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Helmer Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:17 am

why dont we fecking use that 7m number 6

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Post by Red Alert Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:13 pm

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:why dont we fecking use that 7m number 6
Because he's no Eriksen. Sad
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Post by Helmer Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:49 pm

I got over with that long back. I asked a friend from Eindhoven, as i said i was always cusious how come no big club approached for him...he said, 'he can be inconsistent during games and also during the season. There is no doubt that he has potential to touch the ceiling of WC'.

With that said, we should start with alberto in the next match, but BR will start Moses because although he doesnt provide balance in the team, he offers something attacking wise.

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Post by Red Alert Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:37 am

Getting an Eindhoven fan to talk about a player from Ajax is like getting a Manchester United support to say something about a Liverpool player. lol

He didn't get approached because of the risk of the Eredivisie. Spurs got themselves a diamond. He will establish himself as one of the better number 10s in the world if he develops right.
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Post by El Jefe Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:45 am

Wouldn't say it was the risk of the Eredivisie. All their top talents get bought before they're about 23.
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Post by Red Alert Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:55 am

Eriksen's 21, though. And has been well known for 2-3 years now.

The risk of the Eredivisie definitely played a part in him getting overlooked. I mean, people were prepared to pay 30m (nearly up to three times more!) for Willian instead of going for Eriksen... Eriksen is the better player already, and will only get better.
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Post by El Jefe Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 pm

I know how old he is. I'm just meant there's hardly a fear from clubs of buying from that league if all the top talents are snapped up so quickly.

Either way it's stupid that more teams weren't in for him considering his potential and his price.
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Post by McAgger Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:03 pm

People there is no point in talking about Eriksen anymore. That chapter is closed for the near future.
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Post by El Jefe Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:33 pm

Can we all accept that we need a new defensive midfielder now? It's a poor partnership and Lucas is all over the place as a DM.
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Post by Art Morte Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:48 pm

El Jefe wrote:Can we all accept that we need a new defensive midfielder now? It's a poor partnership and Lucas is all over the place as a DM.
Yeah, I'd definitely like another option. Lucas has got his good performances, but I can't help feeling that he is the weakest link in our midfield right now.
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Post by El Jefe Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:59 pm

Lucas has now won only 67% of his tackles. Compare that to other DMs in the league -
Sandro - 80%
Wanyama - 79%
Schneiderlin - 76%
Fernandinho - 85%
Fellaini - 100%
Mikel - 100%
Yacob - 83%

Elsewhere in Europe

Busquets - 83% (100% in CL)
Martinez - 100%
Matuidi - 86%
S. Bender - 80%
L. Bender - 90%
M'Vila - 77% (100% in EL)

That's what he should be aiming for. He's far too weak.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:53 am

El Jefe I've begun to agree with you on many points, but tackles won is a poor stat. Tackles won is simply how many of your tackles lead to the team retaining possession (holding the ball yourself or directing it to a teammate) and how many don't (going out of play or returning to another player). It's largely luck, as it has to do with the ricochet of the ball and where players are positioned around you. Total number of tackles (won + lost) is a far more important statistic for defensive players.
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Post by Red Alert Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:56 am

You were saying that the "tackling" stat was redundant and he's not very good when he was leading in that category. Why the change of thoughts?
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Post by El Jefe Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:32 pm

stevieg8 wrote:El Jefe I've begun to agree with you on many points, but tackles won is a poor stat.  Tackles won is simply how many of your tackles lead to the team retaining possession (holding the ball yourself or directing it to a teammate) and how many don't (going out of play or returning to another player).  It's largely luck, as it has to do with the ricochet of the ball and where players are positioned around you.  Total number of tackles (won + lost) is a far more important statistic for defensive players.
I know what you mean, I'm not sure exactly how they work it out, but it's a worry when it's so low. Especially when others can go into the tackle and retain possession whereas Lucas can't. Busquets is a good example, he quite often takes the ball away from people by getting his body in the way and doesn't have to go into many tackles.

Red Alert wrote:You were saying that the "tackling" stat was redundant and he's not very good when he was leading in that category. Why the change of thoughts?
I never said it was redundant. I said the AMOUNT of tackles won wasn't a good measure of a DM. I've always said that % won is far more important.

El Jefe wrote:I thought my original post made this clear, the amount of tackles he makes DOES NOT make him good. It shows that he chases the ball, that's fine if you've got someone else covering you, very often Lucas doesn't have cover but chases it anyway. The amount of times he rushes in and over commits is reflected by the amount of times he gets dribbled past and the amount of times he gets caught out of position. It wouldn't be SO bad if he had at least a little bit of recovery pace, but he doesn't. Also, his tackle % isn't great, I'd rather someone who wins 3 out of 3 than 5 out of 8. 5 out of 8 would actually be decent by Lucas standards.
Look at the bits in bold. I've always maintained that % > amount. No change of thoughts.

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Post by DeletedUser#1 Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:20 pm

Both of them need replacing if we want to progress into the next territory. Currently the weak links of the team alongside LB.

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Post by ExtremistEnigma Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:44 pm

We need beasts in the midfield ffs.
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Post by stevieg8 Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:15 pm

I AM sure exactly how they work it out, I read a Bass Tuned to Red post on it a few weeks ago (link: http://basstunedtored.com/2013/10/01/the-truth-about-tackles/). They mentioned how total number of tackles is far more important than percentage, because tackle percentage is largely a factor of luck. Yes, your point about Busquets having better technique plays a role, but far more important is the positioning and roles your teammates play around you, and with the D line playing deep and Gerrard not being the most mobile of midfielders, he's going to "lose" a large number of tackles. Additionally, since he plays in the center, he doesn't get the help that wide players do from tackles going out of play counting as "wins".

Instead, the number of total tackles judges how much a player disrupts the oppositions attack. Even if they lose the ball by it going straight back to the opposition, they're still hurting the flow and fluency of the attack and giving teammates time to get back on defense. Since that's how these metrics are determined, I think I can say pretty confidently that I'd rather have a player go 5/8 than 3/3.

I do think Lucas was poor yesterday, and if he had tracked Cazorla like he was supposed to that first goal wouldn't have happened. But his tackling is the most important and best part of his game, and he's very good at it (by statistical measures, at least).
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Post by Helmer Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:56 pm

Guys the battle was
08 Arteta
07 Rosicky
16 Ramsey
11 Özil
19 Cazorla
v
08 Gerrard
14 Henderson
21 Lucas

So we were never going to cope up with that so BR need to think about this 3CBs thing. As I had said before 3CBs can be a great idea for certain games and specially against lower teams. 3CBs is a suicide against teams like Arsenal.

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Post by El Jefe Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:09 pm

stevieg8 wrote:I AM sure exactly how they work it out, I read a Bass Tuned to Red post on it a few weeks ago (link: http://basstunedtored.com/2013/10/01/the-truth-about-tackles/).  They mentioned how total number of tackles is far more important than percentage, because tackle percentage is largely a factor of luck. Yes, your point about Busquets having better technique plays a role, but far more important is the positioning and roles your teammates play around you, and with the D line playing deep and Gerrard not being the most mobile of midfielders, he's going to "lose" a large number of tackles.  Additionally, since he plays in the center, he doesn't get the help that wide players do from tackles going out of play counting as "wins".

Instead, the number of total tackles judges how much a player disrupts the oppositions attack.  Even if they lose the ball by it going straight back to the opposition, they're still hurting the flow and fluency of the attack and giving teammates time to get back on defense. Since that's how these metrics are determined, I think I can say pretty confidently that I'd rather have a player go 5/8 than 3/3.

I do think Lucas was poor yesterday, and if he had tracked Cazorla like he was supposed to that first goal wouldn't have happened.  But his tackling is the most important and best part of his game, and he's very good at it (by statistical measures, at least).
It's not luck, it's timing and technique. There's an art to tackling that he will never master. You have to make decisions on when to put a foot in, the angles of your tackling taking into consideration where you, the opponents team mates and your own team mates are on the pitch, and when to simply jockey the man with the ball. There's a massive amount of technique and intelligence involved. Quality over quantity. And you say more tackles disrupts the flow, which is true to an extent, but challenging for a lot of tackles to disrupt the flow of the opponents attacks can (and regularly does) leave your own team open to attacks, a better option is to hold your position and make the right judgements on when to step out and tackle. It's no coincidence that Europe's top defensive midfielders' tackling % are so much higher than Lucas'.

Also, look at Lucas against Arsenal and then watch Sandro against Everton. According to Squawka, Lucas made 2 out of an attempted 4 tackles. Sandro made 1 out of 1. Goes to show that % is more important than quantity, Lucas' performance was woeful, Sandro was immense.

Speaking of Sandro, he's putting in displays like the one against Everton after being back about 2 and a half months from his ACL injury. People were making excuses for Lucas' shocking games a year on from his return from the same injury.
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Post by Red Alert Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:40 am

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:Guys the battle was
08 Arteta
07 Rosicky
16 Ramsey
11 Özil
19 Cazorla
v
08 Gerrard
14 Henderson
21 Lucas

So we were never going to cope up with that so BR need to think about this 3CBs thing. As I had said before 3CBs can be a great idea for certain games and specially against lower teams. 3CBs is a suicide against teams like Arsenal.
Don't talk sense. Blame Lucas for Cissokho being out of position for their first goal, and Henderson not tracking back Ramsey (and Kolo Toure then freezing and not closing down Ramsey) for their second.
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Post by Red Alert Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:41 am

Natalie Portman wrote:Both of them need replacing if we want to progress into the next territory. Currently the weak links of the team alongside LB.
The only way both of them needs replacing if we continue playing this counter attacking style.

It's no surprise they're fine and "back to their best" when we go back to playing possession type / Rodgers football from last season.
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Post by Helmer Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:06 am

Red Alert wrote:
HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:Guys the battle was
08 Arteta
07 Rosicky
16 Ramsey
11 Özil
19 Cazorla
v
08 Gerrard
14 Henderson
21 Lucas

So we were never going to cope up with that so BR need to think about this 3CBs thing. As I had said before 3CBs can be a great idea for certain games and specially against lower teams. 3CBs is a suicide against teams like Arsenal.
Don't talk sense. Blame Lucas for Cissokho being out of position for their first goal, and Henderson not tracking back Ramsey (and Kolo Toure then freezing and not closing down Ramsey) for their second.
what do you mean by 'dont talk sense' Smile
in fact i said the same thing that having midifled of 3 didnt help because Cissokho or Flano didnt help in handling their midifeld 5

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Post by stevieg8 Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:59 am

He was being sarcastic, HMR, he agrees with you and is mocking other posters.
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