Gerrard-Lucas Partnership

vegfootball wrote:

El Jefe wrote:^ Da gawd Sandro. What a player.

The understanding of when to press and when to back off is vital, especially when you have no pace. Masch was brilliant over 10 yards so he could afford to be very aggressive. Only ever pressed up high when he had decent cover as well, usually did with Alonso.

Javier Mascherano was more fast than 10 yard rush, he could get up the whole pitch dam fast, it just his body shape he did not look like he was running,

don't why you think Lucas is the weak link in centre midfield, when it has been Gerrard who been most poorest centre midfield we had since Rodgers been here,

Rodgers what a deep midfield to be the keep of possession & give defensive cover out of all are centre midfield's Lucas best at keep possession from deep, help the back 4, good at read the game & so on

it the rest who play with  Lucas,

Gerrard was much better than Lucas last season. As was Henderson. And Allen before his shoulder injury. Lucas was woeful last season and has been this year as well.

Allen is better at keeping possession than Lucas, Henderson is just as good if not better when played deep in midfield and Lucas isn't fit to lace Gerrard's boots when it comes to passing (or anything else).

He doesn't give defensive cover, he gets dribbled past more often than he should, he doesn't win a high % of tackles and misses lots of interceptions.

vegfootball wrote:Gerrard is not the boss any more as a box-to-box midfielder/free role attacking midfielder doe's ok job as defensive midfielder but not as good as  Lucas nor has got the fitnees to last a whole 90 mins nor the pace any more

Gerrard doesn't even play as a defensive midfielder. Look, no offence but it's quite clear that you don't know much about the role of a DM and I can't really be bothered explaining it all.

El Jefe wrote:

vegfootball wrote:

El Jefe wrote:^ Da gawd Sandro. What a player.

The understanding of when to press and when to back off is vital, especially when you have no pace. Masch was brilliant over 10 yards so he could afford to be very aggressive. Only ever pressed up high when he had decent cover as well, usually did with Alonso.

Javier Mascherano was more fast than 10 yard rush, he could get up the whole pitch dam fast, it just his body shape he did not look like he was running,

don't why you think Lucas is the weak link in centre midfield, when it has been Gerrard who been most poorest centre midfield we had since Rodgers been here,

Rodgers what a deep midfield to be the keep of possession & give defensive cover out of all are centre midfield's Lucas best at keep possession from deep, help the back 4, good at read the game & so on

it the rest who play with  Lucas,

Gerrard was much better than Lucas last season. As was Henderson. And Allen before his shoulder injury. Lucas was woeful last season and has been this year as well.

Allen is better at keeping possession than Lucas, Henderson is just as good if not better when played deep in midfield and Lucas isn't fit to lace Gerrard's boots when it comes to passing (or anything else).

He doesn't give defensive cover, he gets dribbled past more often than he should, he doesn't win a high % of tackles and misses lots of interceptions.

vegfootball wrote:Gerrard is not the boss any more as a box-to-box midfielder/free role attacking midfielder doe's ok job as defensive midfielder but not as good as  Lucas nor has got the fitnees to last a whole 90 mins nor the pace any more

Gerrard doesn't even play as a defensive midfielder. Look, no offence but it's quite clear that you don't know much about the role of a DM and I can't really be bothered explaining it all.

did not say any thing about Defensive midfielder, i am saying Brendan Rodgers is play with a deep midfielder any one can see that, what now see not 1 deep midfielder but 2 deep midfielder

as for passing accuracy opp half last season Joe Allen/Lucas Leiva had 80%+ were Steven Gerrard had only 72% even Henderson had better passing accuracy then Gerrard with 78%

Official - Lucas is best tackler in PL

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/official-lucas-is-best-tackler-in-pl

It may come as no surprise to Liverpool fans but now it's official - Lucas Leiva is the best tackler in the Barclays Premier League.

The 26-year-old completed nine tackles in the 6-0 win at Newcastle on Saturday - two more than the entire QPR team in their goalless draw with Reading.

This haul elevated Lucas to third in the tackles won table for 2012-13 behind Southampton's Morgan Schneiderlin and Stoke's Geoff Cameron.

The top 10 is:

Morgan Schneiderlin - 105
Geoff Cameron - 86
Lucas Leiva - 82
Mohamed Diame - 81
Pablo Zabaleta - 80
Craig Gardner - 79
Ramires - 79
Robert Snodgrass - 77
Claudio Yacob - 76
Steve Sidwell -76

As interesting as the above table is, it doesn't take into account how often a player has featured during 2012-13.

For example, Schneiderlin has totalled 105 tackles during more than 3,000 league minutes - whereas Lucas has tallied 82 in fewer than 1,700 minutes.

The more telling table below shows the tackles won per 90 minutes of each of the top 10 - and with 4.4 successful tackles per game, Lucas is head and shoulders above the other contenders.

The adapted top 10 is:

Lucas Leiva - 4.4
Steve Sidwell -3.25
Claudio Yacob - 3.19
Geoff Cameron - 3.15
Morgan Schneiderlin - 3.11
Mohamed Diame - 3.10
Ramires - 3.09
Pablo Zabaleta - 2.91
Craig Gardner - 2.53
Robert Snodgrass - 2.46

The Importance Of Being Lucas – Opta Stats Analysis

http://eplindex.com/13934/the-importance-of-being-lucas-opta-stats-analysis.html

Recently we have seen a new statistic doing the rounds on Twitter called Goal Involvement. A truly interesting statistic that compares how many goals players are involved in as percentage of the total their team has scored. For example Luis Suarez has scored 23 and assisted 5 goals this season; therefore he has been involved with 28 of the 67 goals scored by Liverpool. This gives Suarez a goal involvement percentage of 41.8% of all goals scored for the team this season. This is likely to be one of the highest percentages in the league. With Henderson however, his scoring and assisting solely cannot be compared to a striker who has spent double the time that he has on the pitch, so in his case we will be looking at minutes per goal involvement (MGI) which will indicate how many minutes a player is on the pitch before he assists/scores a goal.

We can see Jordan Henderson has performed incredibly well this season giving how little starts he has had. Being involved in a goal every 142 minutes has meant he has even out shone club captain Steven Gerrard, and Red Devils favourite Giggs although Liverpool new-boy Phillipe Coutinho has stolen a little of Hendo’s limelight by having the second best MGI in all of the top 7 teams.

In 2010/11 Jordan Henderson created 82 chances for Sunderland proving that he does posses a creative side to his game. He was one of the most creative players that season (as the screen shot from our Creativity Top Stats area shows - members only) finishing in sixth place overall.

http://eplindex.com/31332/jordan-henderson-comparison-epl-midfielders.html

vegfootball wrote:Official - Lucas is best tackler in PL

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/official-lucas-is-best-tackler-in-pl

It may come as no surprise to Liverpool fans but now it's official - Lucas Leiva is the best tackler in the Barclays Premier League.

The 26-year-old completed nine tackles in the 6-0 win at Newcastle on Saturday - two more than the entire QPR team in their goalless draw with Reading.

This haul elevated Lucas to third in the tackles won table for 2012-13 behind Southampton's Morgan Schneiderlin and Stoke's Geoff Cameron.

The top 10 is:

Morgan Schneiderlin - 105
Geoff Cameron - 86
Lucas Leiva - 82
Mohamed Diame - 81
Pablo Zabaleta - 80
Craig Gardner - 79
Ramires - 79
Robert Snodgrass - 77
Claudio Yacob - 76
Steve Sidwell -76

As interesting as the above table is, it doesn't take into account how often a player has featured during 2012-13.

For example, Schneiderlin has totalled 105 tackles during more than 3,000 league minutes - whereas Lucas has tallied 82 in fewer than 1,700 minutes.

The more telling table below shows the tackles won per 90 minutes of each of the top 10 - and with 4.4 successful tackles per game, Lucas is head and shoulders above the other contenders.

The adapted top 10 is:

Lucas Leiva - 4.4
Steve Sidwell -3.25
Claudio Yacob - 3.19
Geoff Cameron - 3.15
Morgan Schneiderlin - 3.11
Mohamed Diame - 3.10
Ramires - 3.09
Pablo Zabaleta - 2.91
Craig Gardner - 2.53
Robert Snodgrass - 2.46

Tackles don't make a good DM. Busquets is the best in the world and hardly has to tackle. % is more important anyway. 4/4 is better than 5/6.

Look how easy Kagawa rolled Lucas in the 2nd half. Embarrassing.

Lucas is below 70% tackle success in the league this year. Shocking.

I really hope both of them don't start on sunday

it's like beating on a dead horse. It just doesn't work

head to head so far Steven vs Lucas

General play

84% Passing Accuracy 89%

72.7% Passing Accuracy opp half (%) 88.4%

59.5% Duels won (%) 59.7%

20% Aerial Duels Won (%) 64.7%

33 Recoveries 35

Deference side of the game

60% Tackles Won (%) 69.2%

11 Clearances 14

2 Blocks 2

11 Interceptions 15

so one edge it for deep role, why then play with 2 deep players ?

I think Lucas should be tried out in Gerrard's role, he's much more composed with the ball and a much better passer in pressure situations. We can play one of the CBs (Agger) as the anchor man.

Now that Suárez is back I think it's time to drop 4-2-3-1 as we haven't got the power and pace the athletics needed in one of the defensive deep players nor the creative player playing in front of the two deep defensive players

I would go with Lucas and rotate him with Stevie G then Henderson and rotate with Allen to partner either Lucas or Stevie G

Then comes January Rodgers has to make a decision whether or not to go with 4-3-3 or carry on playing 4-4-1-1, when he's made that decision we can then decide how we going to transform our midfield into more top tier level

vegfootball wrote:head to head so far Steven vs Lucas

General play

84% Passing Accuracy 89%

72.7% Passing Accuracy opp half (%) 88.4%

59.5% Duels won (%) 59.7%

20% Aerial Duels Won (%) 64.7%

33 Recoveries 35

Deference side of the game

60% Tackles Won (%) 69.2%

11 Clearances 14

2 Blocks 2

11 Interceptions 15

so one edge it for deep role, why then play with 2 deep players ?

They play different roles. It's not "a deep role". It's a defensive midfielder and a playmaker. Gerrard, the playmaker, plays more adventurous passes. Lucas, the "defensive midfielder" plays safe passes.

For a DM, under 70% tackle success is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful.

ExtremistEnigma wrote:I think Lucas should be tried out in Gerrard's role, he's much more composed with the ball and a much better passer in pressure situations. We can play one of the CBs (Agger) as the anchor man.

Lucas as a playmaker? No way. And composed under pressure, did you not watch him against Villa? Whenever someone came within 3 yards of him in that second half he crumbled.

And you can't play Agger as a DM. He can't learn a position that he's never played before, not at his age.

El Jefe wrote:

vegfootball wrote:head to head so far Steven vs Lucas

General play

84% Passing Accuracy 89%

72.7% Passing Accuracy opp half (%) 88.4%

59.5% Duels won (%) 59.7%

20% Aerial Duels Won (%) 64.7%

33 Recoveries 35

Deference side of the game

60% Tackles Won (%) 69.2%

11 Clearances 14

2 Blocks 2

11 Interceptions 15

so one edge it for deep role, why then play with 2 deep players ?

They play different roles. It's not "a deep role". It's a defensive midfielder and a playmaker. Gerrard, the playmaker, plays more adventurous passes. Lucas, the "defensive midfielder" plays safe passes.

For a DM, under 70% tackle success is dreadful. Absolutely dreadful.

ExtremistEnigma wrote:I think Lucas should be tried out in Gerrard's role, he's much more composed with the ball and a much better passer in pressure situations. We can play one of the CBs (Agger) as the anchor man.

Lucas as a playmaker? No way. And composed under pressure, did you not watch him against Villa? Whenever someone came within 3 yards of him in that second half he crumbled.

And you can't play Agger as a DM. He can't learn a position that he's never played before, not at his age.

I give up as it clearly comes across as you have an opinion that you don't like Lucas and it doesn't matter about statistics positions winning ratios and so on and so on, as in your mind that you feel that Lucas is a interior player

As for Lucas & Gerrard not playing the same role is if Stevie G is post be the playmaker why has he got the lowest passing percentage in his own half let alone the opposition half,

Anyway the virus you concerned Lucas is the weak link so I'm not going to add any more to the conversation

Gerrard has a lower passing % because he plays more risky passes, he plays more risky passes because he's the playmaker. Pretty obvious.

Lucas' passing doesn't have to be adventurous, as long as it's safe people are happy. I haven't really got a problem with that, unless he's playing it straight to Ryan Giggs when he's got nobody round him for 20 yards.

Statistics for a DM are a bit pointless. Have you ever seen a stat for being out of position? Have you ever seen a stat for stepping out and missing an interception? Have you ever seen a stat for allowing people to run at the defence? Have you ever seen a stat for pressing at the wrong times? The answer is no. And until the answer is yes I'll judge DMs with my eyes.

El Jefe wrote:Statistics for a DM are a bit pointless. Have you ever seen a stat for being out of position? Have you ever seen a stat for stepping out and missing an interception? Have you ever seen a stat for allowing people to run at the defence? Have you ever seen a stat for pressing at the wrong times? The answer is no. And until the answer is yes I'll judge DMs with my eyes.

I disagree slightly with this point. Stats for a DM are far from pointless. However, they can often be misleading. As you alluded to, there are no stats for positional discipline (though there are heat-maps), missed interceptions, chasing out of position, and not picking up late runners. All of these have been concerns of mine over Lucas so far this season.

For the first half of most games, he's looked very comfortable, allowing Gerrard to push forward and cleaning up the messes. However, when we've dropped deeper, he begins to unravel. He begins to chase (unnecessarily), opening space in our defense. This is a problem, as when an attacker receives the ball in this newly-opened space, he often looks too knackered from chasing the ball to close them down. (The fitness issue, while seemingly strange, does appear to be one that affects both Lucas and Gerrard. They both seem to tire at 60 mins, leading to more long-ball, leading to less possession, leading to a deeper line, etc.)


In short, he looks to be a very good DM when we dominate possession, but goes to s**t when he tires (d'oh) or when we begin to sit deep. That may seem to be a strange statement, but the subtler responsibilities of a dm in a possession based team and a counter-attacking team can be somewhat different. Lucas has looked too impatient in our counter-attacking "mode". Instead, he looks to chase the ball, running from defender to defender attempting to win the ball back. That in and of itself is not a "bad" quality, but it is unnecessary in a deep-lying, counter-attacking approach and mainly results in him tiring himself out. Re-watch the second half of the Swansea match, and you should be able to see examples of this. In fact, Shelvey's assist to Michu came about from Lucas chasing out of position, failing to win the ball, and not being fresh enough to recover (Gerrard doesn't get back either...).

This may sound overly harsh on Lucas, but the trend is worrying, especially the point about him and Gerrard both tiring at around 60 mins, leaving out midfield without any movement/dynamism or ability to track back after an error. I think a small amount of patience could help him immensely, not only in his decisions of when to chase and when to hold, but it would also save some energy. I do hope his performances improve, as I obviously want him to be the solution rather than the problem. However, his performances have not inspired confidence so far this season.

I am really curious how it unfolds as the season goes, whether it is related to tactics or they get really tired. I mean whether they get tired because of tactics OR whether they feel tired so we play those tactics in the second half.

Again, it's more Rodgers fault than the Lucas-Gerrard partnership on why we get overrun.

We've been unconvincing in ALL of our games this season. We've played 10 different styles and we're only 8-10 games in (all comps). It's not just our midfield that's been poor. Our midfield is actually good when we play OUR GAME. But we're not playing our game this season. Our defence has sort of steadied, but we're still horrid at set pieces. We have no creativity from midfield. We have no link from midfield to attack.

We went from being a very fluid team to shooting ourselves in the foot and making problems. Go back to how we were playing in the second half of the season ffs.

donttreadonred wrote:

El Jefe wrote:Statistics for a DM are a bit pointless. Have you ever seen a stat for being out of position? Have you ever seen a stat for stepping out and missing an interception? Have you ever seen a stat for allowing people to run at the defence? Have you ever seen a stat for pressing at the wrong times? The answer is no. And until the answer is yes I'll judge DMs with my eyes.

I disagree slightly with this point. Stats for a DM are far from pointless. However, they can often be misleading. As you alluded to, there are no stats for positional discipline (though there are heat-maps), missed interceptions, chasing out of position, and not picking up late runners. All of these have been concerns of mine over Lucas so far this season.

For the first half of most games, he's looked very comfortable, allowing Gerrard to push forward and cleaning up the messes. However, when we've dropped deeper, he begins to unravel. He begins to chase (unnecessarily), opening space in our defense. This is a problem, as when an attacker receives the ball in this newly-opened space, he often looks too knackered from chasing the ball to close them down. (The fitness issue, while seemingly strange, does appear to be one that affects both Lucas and Gerrard. They both seem to tire at 60 mins, leading to more long-ball, leading to less possession, leading to a deeper line, etc.)


In short, he looks to be a very good DM when we dominate possession, but goes to s**t when he tires (d'oh) or when we begin to sit deep. That may seem to be a strange statement, but the subtler responsibilities of a dm in a possession based team and a counter-attacking team can be somewhat different. Lucas has looked too impatient in our counter-attacking "mode". Instead, he looks to chase the ball, running from defender to defender attempting to win the ball back. That in and of itself is not a "bad" quality, but it is unnecessary in a deep-lying, counter-attacking approach and mainly results in him tiring himself out. Re-watch the second  half of the Swansea match, and you should be able to see examples of this. In fact, Shelvey's assist to Michu came about from Lucas chasing out of position, failing to win the ball, and not being fresh enough to recover (Gerrard doesn't get back either...).

This may sound overly harsh on Lucas, but the trend is worrying, especially the point about him and Gerrard both tiring at around 60 mins, leaving out midfield without any movement/dynamism or ability to track back after an error. I think a small amount of patience could help him immensely, not only in his decisions of when to chase and when to hold, but it would also save some energy. I do hope his performances improve, as I obviously want him to be the solution rather than the problem. However, his performances have not inspired confidence so far this season.

Agree. He really needs to learn when to press and when to stand off.

5 bookings at this stage of the season says a lot, that's really really poor. Most come from rushing into tackles or from being out of position and having to bring people down. We'll now play our next match without a DM.

something-red wrote:Again, it's more Rodgers fault than the Lucas-Gerrard partnership on why we get overrun.

We've been unconvincing in ALL of our games this season. We've played 10 different styles and we're only 8-10 games in (all comps). It's not just our midfield that's been poor. Our midfield is actually good when we play OUR GAME. But we're not playing our game this season. Our defence has sort of steadied, but we're still horrid at set pieces. We have no creativity from midfield. We have no link from midfield to attack.

We went from being a very fluid team to shooting ourselves in the foot and making problems. Go back to how we were playing in the second half of the season ffs.

Our midfield has been good when we play our game, but we can't play our game for 90 minutes because the midfield isn't good enough to.

So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?

Gerrard and Hendo I am glad we will get to experiment it against palace at home

actually today Gerrard played better compared to last few matches.
I really want someone like Javi Martinez,

Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?

M'Vila. Matuidi and Fernando Reges will be available on pre contract agreements unless they've signed a new deal by then, either of them would be good, especially Matuidi.

I have heard about Matuidi that he is a beast but never got to see him play. Hasnt he started the last game for PSG , I doubt he can be taken away from PSG. I hope Sakho can convince him,
probably sportczy knows more about the situation

Lucas and Gerrard don't work period, be it as a two-man midfield or a three man midfield

Both doing identical roles sitting way to deep, when one breaks forward the other doesn't cover the space nor tracked back, lack of mobility, concentration, letting runners go past them without running with them, affording too much space in front of them not closing down quick enough,

Out of the two with a passing Lucas is more safe and controlled where Gerrard constantly looking for the spectacular ball which most the time doesn't work and concedes possession

Still don't think Rodgers has a clue what he's doing as a manager at a big club Henderson is up only top central midfielder and constantly misusing him when we desperately need Henderson in the centre being a box to box midfielder and adding the pace to the team

Don't also think it's helping Rodgers having yes-men and inexperience men around him i.e.Pascoe & Marsh as big clubs have shown having a strong back room staff also makes important role with the manager,

Rodgers needs to drastically think how he's going to shape his central midfield in January as that could be a crucial turning point between us reaching champions league football or Rodgers losing his job

Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?

In my opinion we need a heavy strong enforcer in central midfield and a creative midfielder

My opinion enforcer should be Geoffrey Kondogbia

And the creative Alan Dzagoev

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I have heard about Matuidi that he is a beast but never got to see him play. Hasnt he started the last game for PSG , I doubt he can be taken away from PSG. I hope Sakho can convince him,
probably sportczy knows more about the situation

I've seen him a few times and he looked really good. PSG would be idiots to let him go though.

vegfootball wrote:

Art Morte wrote:So I think most, if not all, of us agree that we need another CM. Who would people like in January?

In my opinion we need a heavy strong enforcer in central midfield and a creative midfielder

My opinion enforcer should be Geoffrey Kondogbia

And the creative Alan Dzagoev

Kondogbia moved to Monaco in the summer.

For the money Dzagoev would cost we could find someone to suit our needs better, don't think we need an expensive attacking midfield player if we carry on with 3-4-1-2. Sorting out the middle 2 is more important and there's better options than him.