Nicolas Sarkozy ousted as French President

Senor Penguin wrote:
Can't say that I know much about Indian affairs but I certainly hope you get a better future too, sir. India seems to be a country full of potential just waiting to be fulfilled.

Thank you Senor. But it is really difficult. Socialism is so deeply entrenched in our psyche that people don't understand the concept of liberty and freedom anymore. They take the current policies running our country as a given.

It is going to be a huge challenge to reduce the size of our government and cut the bureaucratic bullshit that is going on currently.

kiranr wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:
Can't say that I know much about Indian affairs but I certainly hope you get a better future too, sir. India seems to be a country full of potential just waiting to be fulfilled.

Thank you Senor. But it is really difficult. Socialism is so deeply entrenched in our psyche that people don't understand the concept of liberty and freedom anymore. They take the current policies running our country as a given.

It is going to be a huge challenge to reduce the size of our government and cut the bureaucratic bullshit that is going on currently.

I give India credit for being the world's biggest democracy - obviously there are many serious issues that need to be sorted out, but that is an achievement in itself.

Senor Penguin wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Oh god, penguin again with his Scandinavian rhetoric

The Scandinavian states are not full economies with everything in a closed system they are mostly export oriented economies which operate in the freest of all markets (global trade).

You make it sound like I would disagree with this. I don't.

These states might have high taxes and a big government but they also minimize red tape and have some of the most flexible and free labor markets anywhere in the world (much much better than the rest of europe)

Which is heavily influenced by the so-called soft socialism ...

Here are some more stats

The Heritage Foundation has a ranking for economic freedom. Denmark comes in 9th, Finland 17th, Iceland 18th, Sweden 21st and Norway 37th out of 179 countries.

The Economic Freedom Network placed Denmark in 12th, Finland 16th, Iceland and Norway tied for 24th and Sweden came in 40th out of 141 countries.

Ugh, your Scandinavian rhetoric is so nauseating. :p

The point is some of these strong points (especially the market in which these countries operate in and the labor market) are all very capitalistic and not socialist at all.

The only area which is strongly socialist is the welfare state which seems to be successful because there is a very strong culture of not taking money when you dont need it or trying to get a job as soon as possible (even when its illogical for that individual to not do so). This has been working great but I would attribute it to exceptional aspects of that culture which kept it alive, if we look at how there has been strong back lash against immigration (because immigrants do just take the money) it shows that this cannot work in a diverse or global society.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

The point is some of these strong points (especially the market in which these countries operate in and the labor market) are all very capitalistic and not socialist at all.

The only area which is strongly socialist is the welfare state which seems to be successful because there is a very strong culture of not taking money when you dont need it or trying to get a job as soon as possible (even when its illogical for that individual to not do so). This has been working great but I would attribute it to exceptional aspects of that culture which kept it alive, if we look at how there has been strong back lash against immigration (because immigrants do just take the money) it shows that this cannot work in a diverse or global society.

Excellent point Yuri about the culture aspect.

Forza Rossoneri wrote:
I give India credit for being the world's biggest democracy - obviously there are many serious issues that need to be sorted out, but that is an achievement in itself.

Oh yes, we had and currently have the fortune of brilliant people who set up the institutions of our country and are currently doing an excellent job maintaining it.

If not for Jawaharlal Nehru (a brilliant man leaving aside his socialism bias) not having a prominent role after independence, we would have been so much better than we are today with many of the current issues non-existent.

kiranr wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:
Can't say that I know much about Indian affairs but I certainly hope you get a better future too, sir. India seems to be a country full of potential just waiting to be fulfilled.

Thank you Senor. But it is really difficult. Socialism is so deeply entrenched in our psyche that people don't understand the concept of liberty and freedom anymore. They take the current policies running our country as a given.

It is going to be a huge challenge to reduce the size of our government and cut the bureaucratic bullshit that is going on currently.

Every country has it's own problems, I seriously believe most of these problems come because of corupt politicians. Every system could work if the leaders had morale and integrity (if that particular system can have some flexibility) - but the thing is that these leaders don't care at all about what happens to you or me. They literally think we're some kind of a lower race who just go on with our daily lives, 8 hours work, married, make a couple of children and then die. They think that because we don't know what's really happening behind the curtains they hung we're somehow unimportant and only a resource they can exploit. It's hard to really care about people if you have such a low opinion of them. They can even make life so hard for you that you become miserable and lose passions in life. Maybe this hasn't much to do with India per se, but how many times you see a country with so much good, with resources in plenty sectors, great people - and then the people of that country lose all that to some sort of "elite" jerks who aren't even a part of that nation? They don't give a shit about us, it's all what it always was about- money. France, India, Uganda or USA.

kiranr wrote:
That is what happened in India after independence and is the reason for them mess that we have now. Everything was controlled by the state. The people had no freedom to do anything. And then people wonder why there is poverty in India

The Scandinavian countries do seem to be doing well with their soft socialism, isn't it?

Sorry thats completely ridiculous.

Tell me a single private organization in India that works for the upliftment of poor in India.Govt organizations may have their faults but they are the ones serving the poor.So blaming them for the poverty in India is laughable.

If not for them the poverty level in India would be far worse.So blaming them for poverty in India is pointless.Most villages in India basically depend for every aspect from their livelyhood to basic rights for govt. organizations in India.Private organizations only operate in cities and may look cool but most of India live in villages where private sector dont give a ****.

Yuri Yukuv wrote:

Senor Penguin wrote:

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Oh god, penguin again with his Scandinavian rhetoric

The Scandinavian states are not full economies with everything in a closed system they are mostly export oriented economies which operate in the freest of all markets (global trade).

You make it sound like I would disagree with this. I don't.

These states might have high taxes and a big government but they also minimize red tape and have some of the most flexible and free labor markets anywhere in the world (much much better than the rest of europe)

Which is heavily influenced by the so-called soft socialism ...

Here are some more stats

The Heritage Foundation has a ranking for economic freedom. Denmark comes in 9th, Finland 17th, Iceland 18th, Sweden 21st and Norway 37th out of 179 countries.

The Economic Freedom Network placed Denmark in 12th, Finland 16th, Iceland and Norway tied for 24th and Sweden came in 40th out of 141 countries.

Ugh, your Scandinavian rhetoric is so nauseating. :p

The point is some of these strong points (especially the market in which these countries operate in and the labor market) are all very capitalistic and not socialist at all.

Absolutely. The so-called 'soft' socialism can clearly operate with capitalism and doesn't appear dichotomous with it. I do, however, agree that socialism (or what we call 'hard' socialism) itself does oppose captialism.

The only area which is strongly socialist is the welfare state which seems to be successful because there is a very strong culture of not taking money when you dont need it or trying to get a job as soon as possible (even when its illogical for that individual to not do so).

Did you read my post about the Danish flexicurity model? What you speak of is a 'culture' imposed by- and created out of legislation.

This has been working great but I would attribute it to exceptional aspects of that culture which kept it alive, if we look at how there has been strong back lash against immigration (because immigrants do just take the money) it shows that this cannot work in a diverse or global society.

I'm an immigrant (although I do have citizenship) and I don't believe I fit the bill.

BeautifulGame wrote:

kiranr wrote:
That is what happened in India after independence and is the reason for them mess that we have now. Everything was controlled by the state. The people had no freedom to do anything. And then people wonder why there is poverty in India

The Scandinavian countries do seem to be doing well with their soft socialism, isn't it?

Sorry thats completely ridiculous.

Tell me a single private organization in India that works for the upliftment of poor in India.Govt organizations may have their faults but they are the ones serving the poor.So blaming them for the poverty in India is laughable.

If not for them the poverty level in India would be far worse.So blaming them for poverty in India is pointless.Most villages in India basically depend for every aspect from their livelyhood to basic rights for govt. organizations in India.Private organizations only operate in cities and may look cool but most of India live in villages where private sector dont give a ****.

See guys. This is what i was talking about.

Check out the economic freedom index ranking of our country. Then look at the corruption ranking of the country. Also check the ranking on other countries and try to observe the correlation and poverty levels.

Then carefully read the history of our country's policies from independence and understand the flaws and what led to the widespread corruption in the first place. Look at how the government policies restricted the people of India to engage in free trade and business.

Then you will understand what i am talking about.

Aensensen wrote:

Every country has it's own problems, I seriously believe most of these problems come because of corupt politicians. Every system could work if the leaders had morale and integrity (if that particular system can have some flexibility) - but the thing is that these leaders don't care at all about what happens to you or me. They literally think we're some kind of a lower race who just go on with our daily lives, 8 hours work, married, make a couple of children and then die. They think that because we don't know what's really happening behind the curtains they hung we're somehow unimportant and only a resource they can exploit. It's hard to really care about people if you have such a low opinion of them. They can even make life so hard for you that you become miserable and lose passions in life. Maybe this hasn't much to do with India per se, but how many times you see a country with so much good, with resources in plenty sectors, great people - and then the people of that country lose all that to some sort of "elite" jerks who aren't even a part of that nation? They don't give a shit about us, it's all what it always was about- money. France, India, Uganda or USA.

Corruption among politicians and bureaucrats is proportional to the size of the government. The more the government is involved in controlling the life of the people, the more corrupt it will be. It is just how humans are. We respond to incentives and the politicians make use of bad systems to make as much money as possible when in office.

Make no mistake, corruption will be there in some form or the other. But, with the right system, the incentives can be aligned that can create prosperity for the people of the country. This is what i believe helped countries like US, UK, South Korea etc.

kiranr wrote:

BeautifulGame wrote:

kiranr wrote:
That is what happened in India after independence and is the reason for them mess that we have now. Everything was controlled by the state. The people had no freedom to do anything. And then people wonder why there is poverty in India

The Scandinavian countries do seem to be doing well with their soft socialism, isn't it?

Sorry thats completely ridiculous.

Tell me a single private organization in India that works for the upliftment of poor in India.Govt organizations may have their faults but they are the ones serving the poor.So blaming them for the poverty in India is laughable.

If not for them the poverty level in India would be far worse.So blaming them for poverty in India is pointless.Most villages in India basically depend for every aspect from their livelyhood to basic rights for govt. organizations in India.Private organizations only operate in cities and may look cool but most of India live in villages where private sector dont give a ****.

See guys. This is what i was talking about.

Check out the economic freedom index ranking of our country. Then look at the corruption ranking of the country. Also check the ranking on other countries and try to observe the correlation and poverty levels.

Then carefully read the history of our country's policies from independence and understand the flaws and what led to the widespread corruption in the first place.

Then you will understand what i am talking about.

No one is denying corruption is rampant in government officials or that most govt. organisations has incompetency through their organizations.

But fact is despite their incompetence they are one working for the upliftment of poor people.Pvt sectors only care for their profit not for serving the country.

How many poor students have got education loan from private sector banks?
How many poor students below poverty line have seen studying in private schools?
How many remote areas of India have u seen private buses carrying out transportation?
How many poor people in India have u actually seen being treated in private hospitals?

Statistics like these are ones that matter to India most not some pointless economic index freedom ranking.

Look at how the government policies restricted the people of India to engage in free trade and business.

Frankly i am not exactly supporting that stance either.But there are situations where involving private sectors would only increase the gap btw have's and have nots which is not for Indian economy when the country gained independence.

Maybe we overdid the socialism for a lengthier time than it should have been.We should have opened privitization much before 91 when we where forced to do so.But the undeniable fact is the foundation and infrastructure laid down by the govt sector has been one of the most important reason for our rapid economic growth in last 2 decades.

You uplift society by giving them access to free trade. Not by restricting their activities.

The government's logic right from independence has been that you, the people of India, are basically incompetent to do anything for yourself. So we, the government, who are much more superior than you, will engage in all activities of the economy and produce, clothes, food, shelter. Since we, the government of India is so much better than the people of India, we will tax the rich and dole out this money to the poor so that we can uplift you out of poverty.

The above has been happening for 60+ years. Guess what the result was. You need to remove those socialist tinted glasses you have on and look at what economic freedom can do to our country.

Study some of the policies that are in effect today and look at how it restricts investment by corporations in rural areas and how it restricts creation of employment opportunities. Our country is such a big advocate of protecting the farmer. Just look at the incompetent policies that restrict the farmer's access to markets.

You cannot restrict people's access to markets and then hope that the country will move towards prosperity. The private corporations have no responsibility to anyone other than itself.

All over the world, the most successful countries are completely based on capitalist policies that promote liberty and freedom. Why should India be any different?

kiranr wrote:You uplift society by giving them access to free trade. Not by restricting their activities.

U uplift poor section of society giving them cheaper access to basic rights which is what govt organizations do.Not by giving free trade access to capitalist minority.

The government's logic right from independence has been that you, the people of India, are basically incompetent to do anything for yourself. So we, the government, who are much more superior than you, will engage in all activities of the economy and produce, clothes, food, shelter. Since we, the government of India is so much better than the people of India, we will tax the rich and dole out this money to the poor so that we can uplift you out of poverty.

No the Govt. logic right from Independence has been that majority of India lives in villages and poor.So its their responsibility to giving the every India access to basic needs as easily as possible.And private sector wont do that whereas Govt sector is doing a great job of it.

The above has been happening for 60+ years.
Guess what the result was.


India has become one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

You need to remove those socialist tinted glasses you have on and look at what economic freedom can do to our country.

Nope this isnt about rose tinted glasses.This is about knowing the reality of India and more specifically viliages of India in which 70% of India lives.

Study some of the policies that are in effect today and look at how it restricts investment by corporations in rural areas and how it restricts creation of employment opportunities. Our country is such a big advocate of protecting the farmer. Just look at the incompetent policies that restrict the farmer's access to markets.

Now that u are arguing about farmers and Govt policies of farmers i ask u simple question which i hope u wont deflect.

GOvt sector banks give loans at 7 % for farmers despite these loans at this rate of interest means loss to their income.

Mention me a single measure taken by ICICI or HDFC bank for the farmers who are dying every day due to poverty.

If not for PSU banks the no. of farmers dying would be hundred fold.

You cannot restrict people's access to markets and then hope that the country will move towards prosperity. The private corporations have no responsibility to anyone other than itself.

But Govt has responsibility for whole of India not just rich minority.

All over the world, the most successful countries are completely based on capitalist policies that promote liberty and freedom. Why should India be any different?

None of these countries have 70 million people living in villages like India.

India is one of the fastest growing inspite of the government and not because of the government.

Seems like you are convinced that socialism is the way forward. I hope you open your mind and read up about liberty, economic freedom (this affect the people in rural areas too). Please try to find out how economic freedom can propel our country forward.

If you have the time, please read up about Rajagopalachari and Swatantrata party.

Again bogus argument really.If its inspite of Govt then how do classify those millions of poor indians who gain free education from Govt schools and colleges.How would have they got education inspite of Govt.I konw u will probably skip

No socialism is not the way forward.The way forward for India is a mixture of socialism and liberalisation but at a controlled level.

Extreme level of either in not good for the country.

If u have some time please spend some time in villages u will learn lot more about India than reading RajaGopalachari and Swatantrata party.

And being from Tamil nadu a probably know thing about Rajagopalachari too.Do u even know he is one of the politicians who blatently encouraged and supported casteism which is the root cause of most problems in India.

And if u want to read about any leader in India that defined socialism in India read about kamaraj who was the exact opposite of Raja Gopalachari.

Tell me, what are these problems in the villages that you are talking about?

Why does the government need to run schools and colleges to provide free education?

In any case, this is a vast subject that cannot be covered through posts in a forum. I am really convinced that the government needs to reduce its size and allow access to markets (which will lead to access to basic rights) for the people to truly prosper.

There are too many restrictions on people's access to markets currently which is holding our nation back big time. This is one of the major causes for poverty. We need more industries in the rural areas so that people can move to more productive jobs than agriculture and the government is not doing much to address this issue.

U just read through my previous posts for that answer i mentioned it plenty of times in this thread itself.
Seriously u dont know the real issues facing the people living in the villages in our country but think capitalism will solve everything?

Honestly have u ever visited any backward villages in India by any chance?

Agriculture in its current form is highly unproductive. It needs to be reformed. Why can't we do it when countries like Japan China and South Korea have done it?

Remember, people work for incentives. When the material gain for people (who work in the government) comes from inefficiency and not putting in sufficient effort, that is what they will do.

This is primarily the reason why the size of the government needs to be controlled.

Caste issue is a deep rooted problem in our country. But Rajaji's economic policies would have truly helped our country and the state of affairs would have been a lot different than what it is right now.

We are on the verge of becoming a complete welfare state if nothing is done about this system of doling our freebies to people. Remove restrictions on the people's ability to do business and watch the productivity rise manifold.

Kamaraj, excellent man, poor policies. He is similar to Nehru in that regard.

kiranr wrote:
Kamaraj, excellent man, poor policies. He is similar to Nehru in that regard.

U *bleep* kidding me? Name me a single policy of Kamaraj which is poor?

He made a rule every village in tamil nadu should have govt schools within every 5 km radius.

He introduced mid day meals for poor students so that they dont skip schools for food

he build more than half of the dams and irrigation systems in Tamil Nadu.which of these policies exactly poor?

its basically because of the foundation laid by him and MGR to certain extent we are still one the top most industrialised states in India despite ruled by karunanidhi and Jaya for nearly 2 decades.

Seriously where exactly u read about kamaraj's policies.Frankly u are talking about stuff in which u are vowfully wrong.

Kamaraj refused Prime minister post in 1967 when majority of Congress wanted him be the PM simply because he doesnt knew Hindi and English.Whereas Nehru nearly split Congress party because there was more support for Patel in PM race and needed Gandhiji's intervention.

U really believe they 2 are comparable?

Again Honestly , no offense, have u ever visited any backward villages in India by any chance?

kiranr wrote:
Agriculture in its current form is highly unproductive. It needs to be reformed. Why can't we do it when countries like Japan China and South Korea have done it?

Remember, people work for incentives. When the material gain for people (who work in the government) comes from inefficiency and not putting in sufficient effort, that is what they will do.

This is primarily the reason why the size of the government needs to be controlled.

Caste issue is a deep rooted problem in our country. But Rajaji's economic policies would have truly helped our country and the state of affairs would have been a lot different than what it is right now.

We are on the verge of becoming a complete welfare state if nothing is done about this system of doling our freebies to people. Remove restrictions on the people's ability to do business and watch the productivity rise manifold. [/quote]

I just feel U are completely being poorly informed about the issues and just saying solutions u read in books but not practical in my view.

U want to change the way agricultural from the current way.Almost every one agrees in india.But can u list the steps and ways to change the way it is implemented.Then u will realize the practical difficulties in implementing them.

Also u are confusing with Govt officials and service sector units in which Govt is a major shareholder which are what i referring too.Govt officials may be incompetent and corrupt but doesnt exactly mean PSU banks or teachers working in govt schools are corrupt.

Even if u liberalise everything as u want these officials will remain corrupt because u cant privatize decision making officials who are ones really corrupt.

Government schools

What makes them experts in providing education? What he should have done is allow people to start schools for profit. After that too, if people are not able to afford, then provide them withe scholarships.

I will tell you what the government did under Kamaraj. Restrict people to start factories and industries and improving productivity. Let the govt, who is obviously better than the people of India, start the factories and industries and not give the chance for the people of India to work for themselves. Instead they became dependent on the government to do things for them.

This sense of entitlement is so strong now in our country that people vote based on free stuff they can get and not based on the actual qualification of the leaders. Oh they are giving laptops? Let us vote for them. What the others are giving tvs and money? Let us vote for that party instead.

Those socialist policies that our country ran on after independence seriously messed up our country.

Not practical? What makes current India so different from Britain of the past? or US of the past? or Australia? or South Korea?

Really tell me, what is the difference?

kiranr wrote:Government schools

What makes them experts in providing education? What he should have done is allow people to start schools for profit. After that too, if people are not able to afford, then provide them withe scholarships.

I will tell you what the government did under Kamaraj. Restrict people to start factories and industries and improving productivity. Let the govt, who is obviously better than the people of India, start the factories and industries and not give the chance for the people of India to work for themselves. Instead they became dependent on the government to do things for them.

This sense of entitlement is so strong now in our country that people vote based on free stuff they can get and not based on the actual qualification of the leaders. Oh they are giving laptops? Let us vote for them. What the others are giving tvs and money? Let us vote for that party instead.

Those socialist policies that our country ran on after independence seriously messed up our country.

Seriously how ignorant are u?

Allow start schools for profit?No one prevented private schools from starting in rural villages.But Why would private start shcools in villages in where people dont have any money to pay? Seriously do u even see how retarted ur suggestion is?


Seriously have u ever visited any backward villages in India by any chance? Do u even know how a village exists in India or basic issues of farmers?

Because if dont u are simply an armchair expert and not worth debating really.

Did you know that for-profit schools are not allowed in India? This is just one the countless restrictions placed on our society by our "benevolent, all-caring" government.

Seriously, if you do not understand or even know the policies running the country, then how will you even know the source of the "basic problems" ?

And i am not worth debating

In 2001, total irrigated land in Maharashtra: 17.8%

Total expenditure on irrigation from 2001 to 2011: Rs 70,000 cr.

Now total land under irrigation in 2012: 17.9%

This is the legacy of people like Kamaraj and Nehru. This is what happens when the government of a huge country like India decided to do everything and not let the people of India take care of basic needs like irrigation by restricting privatization.