Nicolas Sarkozy ousted as French President

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Post by McLewis Mon May 07, 2012 1:46 am

Lost to Socialist candidate Francois Hollande 51% to 48%. He will leave the office a very hated man from what I've read.

As for Hollande, significant in that he's the French's first Socialist President elected in almost 30 years. Francois Mitterand was the first.

I don't know much about French politics so I can't really give my view on it, but this has the look of a seriously momentous event for France.
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Post by Cruijf Mon May 07, 2012 2:02 am

Great news as far as I'm concerned Thumbs up.

Francois looks like good news for France.
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Post by Sushi Master Mon May 07, 2012 2:14 am

I don't know French politics, either.

But he has a hot wife

Nicolas Sarkozy ousted as French President Carla%20Bruni%20Nicolas%20Sarkozy.preview
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Post by kiranr Mon May 07, 2012 2:46 am


Socialism is never good news.
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Mon May 07, 2012 7:30 am

Shit just got real, I think we just passed peak europe
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Post by Grande_Milano Mon May 07, 2012 2:56 pm

Islamic Republic Of France just self-made a control shot in the head :brickwall:
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Post by Senor Penguin Mon May 07, 2012 3:49 pm

kiranr wrote:
Socialism is never good news.
Really?

Scandinavian socialism seems to be doing fine. :coffee:

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Post by kiranr Mon May 07, 2012 4:05 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Socialism is never good news.
Really?

Scandinavian socialism seems to be doing fine. :coffee:

Look eastwards towards India.
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Post by Senor Penguin Mon May 07, 2012 4:09 pm

kiranr wrote:
Senor Penguin wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Socialism is never good news.
Really?

Scandinavian socialism seems to be doing fine. :coffee:

Look eastwards towards India.
My point is that socialism itself is not necessarily an indicator of doom. If regulated properly it can be used for a lot of good.

Full blown liberalism could bring a country in deep sh*t as well, depending on how it's being regulated.

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Post by kiranr Mon May 07, 2012 4:31 pm

There is, no doubt, good in every system. I agree with your point of view. But my own experiences are making me hate socialism even when it has worked in some other countries.
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Post by zizzle Mon May 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Scandinavian socialism is not even close to real socialism, its can be discribed more acurately as wellfare capitalism and i dont think that's the same system Kiranr has in mind
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Post by Senor Penguin Mon May 07, 2012 8:06 pm

zizzle wrote:Scandinavian socialism is not even close to real socialism, its can be discribed more acurately as wellfare capitalism and i dont think that's the same system Kiranr has in mind
I believe it is officially known as "soft socialism" over here and since it falls under the socialism branch, I feel it deserves a bit of defending. Especially because people make a huge fuzz about socialism these days, wrongfully associating it with hardcore totalitarian states such as North Korea.

It seems that those in favor of socialism are often being compared with and identified as communists.

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Post by lenear1030 Mon May 07, 2012 8:57 pm

all the systems have flaws, and in the US we're seeing capitalism possibly beginning to fail.


i'm not sure if hollande getting elected is good, bad, or neither for France, but I saw posing with Koscielny in an Arsenal shirt, so i like that Very Happy i get the impression that most euros are opposed to or unsatisfied with austerity....
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Post by zizzle Mon May 07, 2012 9:10 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:
zizzle wrote:Scandinavian socialism is not even close to real socialism, its can be discribed more acurately as wellfare capitalism and i dont think that's the same system Kiranr has in mind
I believe it is officially known as "soft socialism" over here and since it falls under the socialism branch, I feel it deserves a bit of defending. Especially because people make a huge fuzz about socialism these days, wrongfully associating it with hardcore totalitarian states such as North Korea.

It seems that those in favor of socialism are often being compared with and identified as communists.

i just dont understand why it has to be labled socialism, i mean in socialism you recieve a compensation equal to your contribution but the scandinavian system makes it easier for bums to surivive off the state. Labeling this system as socialist is actually unfair to socialism.

Socialism and any form of utlilitarianism for that matter might promote totalitarian systems, it doesnt have to be as bad as north korea but sooner or later personal freedoms will be sacrafised for "the common good"

as for communism, i dont know why it recieved such negative publicity, and eventhough i dont feel that its the best system to ensure the progress of the society a stateless society that governs itself based on equality is not such a bad idea
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Post by Senor Penguin Mon May 07, 2012 9:45 pm

zizzle wrote:
Senor Penguin wrote:
zizzle wrote:Scandinavian socialism is not even close to real socialism, its can be discribed more acurately as wellfare capitalism and i dont think that's the same system Kiranr has in mind
I believe it is officially known as "soft socialism" over here and since it falls under the socialism branch, I feel it deserves a bit of defending. Especially because people make a huge fuzz about socialism these days, wrongfully associating it with hardcore totalitarian states such as North Korea.

It seems that those in favor of socialism are often being compared with and identified as communists.

i just dont understand why it has to be labled socialism, i mean in socialism you recieve a compensation equal to your contribution but the scandinavian system makes it easier for bums to surivive off the state. Labeling this system as socialist is actually unfair to socialism.
I don't think I've ever heard socialism defined as such. I've heard something similar said about communism, which is that communists opt for a system giving equal compensation regardless of one's contribution.

The Scandinavian system (more specifically, the Danish system) relies on a so-called 'flexicurity' model which tries to ensure that there are no "bums" to live off the state. It basically means that the state helps you to seek jobs through their jobcentres and if you're unqualified, they'll help you by improving your qualifications through paid education. If there are no jobs available or you are incapable of working, the state will provide with welfare until the situation changes.

Socialism and any form of utlilitarianism for that matter might promote totalitarian systems, it doesnt have to be as bad as north korea but sooner or later personal freedoms will be sacrafised for "the common good"
Socialism does not necessarily connote utilitarianism, though. Nor do I see how North Korea fits the bill.

Either way, I would argue that Scandinavians do have many more freedoms due to a utilitarian approach than Americans do (used as an example because the U.S. is often viewed upon as 'the land of the free' and not being utilitarian). To put it simply, we're not inhibited by social mobility because the government serves its people most notably through education and healthcare. In the U.S. it appears to work for the benefit of corporations, which in turn often take advantage of- and inhibit the people. Unless, of course, the government secures civil liberties and such as a countermeasure against corporate corruption.

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Post by zizzle Mon May 07, 2012 10:37 pm

I don't think I've ever heard socialism defined as such. I've heard something similar said about communism, which is that communists opt for a system giving equal compensation regardless of one's contribution.


well that's the difference between the two, "The socialist principle of distribution according to deeds...communist principle is distribution according to needs"

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm



The Scandinavian system (more specifically, the Danish system) relies on a so-called 'flexicurity' model which tries to ensure that there are no "bums" to live off the state. It basically means that the state helps you to seek jobs through their jobcentres and if you're unqualified, they'll help you by improving your qualifications through paid education. If there are no jobs available or you are incapable of working, the state will provide with welfare until the situation changes.

that's a great system, however know someone in Sweden who decided to retire at 40 since the government pays for everything including his newborn's dippers.



Socialism does not necessarily connote utilitarianism, though. Nor do I see how North Korea fits the bill.

i dont know how socialism can work outside utilitarianism. North Korea is in no way utilitarian but at least that's the moral justification they and every other dictatorship try to use
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Post by Senor Penguin Tue May 08, 2012 10:21 am

zizzle wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard socialism defined as such. I've heard something similar said about communism, which is that communists opt for a system giving equal compensation regardless of one's contribution.


well that's the difference between the two, "The socialist principle of distribution according to deeds...communist principle is distribution according to needs"

http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm
I think that definition is a bit misleading, because I haven't seen either being implemented in such a fashion - neither theoretically nor practically.

States who defined themselves as communist (perhaps better defined as 'hard' socialist states, because they failed to fulfill the communist ideal) sought to impose socio-economic equality (a classless society) regardless of needs. They sought to distribute goods equally amongst its people. They also sought to abolish private corporations by taking control over the industry through a large public sector. The goal being common ownership, ergo the people own everything because the state is, supposedly, run by the people. Modern socialism ('soft' socialism) doesn't seek such a radical system. It does seek a strong public sector but does not acquire it by controlling private enterprise. Modern socialists support individual and financial liberties and develop societies through democratic reformism - 'hard' socialists through revolution.

The Scandinavian system (more specifically, the Danish system) relies on a so-called 'flexicurity' model which tries to ensure that there are no "bums" to live off the state. It basically means that the state helps you to seek jobs through their jobcentres and if you're unqualified, they'll help you by improving your qualifications through paid education. If there are no jobs available or you are incapable of working, the state will provide with welfare until the situation changes.

that's a great system, however know someone in Sweden who decided to retire at 40 since the government pays for everything including his newborn's dippers.
The only way someone someone could retire at that age over here is by documenting an inability to work.

Socialism does not necessarily connote utilitarianism, though. Nor do I see how North Korea fits the bill.

i dont know how socialism can work outside utilitarianism. North Korea is in no way utilitarian but at least that's the moral justification they and every other dictatorship try to use
Well it works outside utilitarianism in the way that North Korea claims to be utilitarian but simply isn't in any shape or form. Smile

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Post by kiranr Tue May 08, 2012 10:37 am

Senor Penguin wrote:
I think that definition is a bit misleading, because I haven't seen either being implemented in such a fashion - neither theoretically nor practically.

States who defined themselves as communist (perhaps better defined as 'hard' socialist states, because they failed to fulfill the communist ideal) sought to impose socio-economic equality (a classless society) regardless of needs. They sought to distribute goods equally amongst its people. They also sought to abolish private corporations by taking control over the industry through a large public sector. The goal being common ownership, ergo the people own everything because the state is, supposedly, run by the people. Modern socialism ('soft' socialism) doesn't seek such a radical system. It does seek a strong public sector but does not acquire it by controlling private enterprise. Modern socialists support individual and financial liberties and develop societies through democratic reformism - 'hard' socialists through revolution.




The only way someone someone could retire at that age over here is by documenting an inability to work.




Well it works outside utilitarianism in the way that North Korea claims to be utilitarian but simply isn't in any shape or form. Smile

That is what happened in India after independence and is the reason for them mess that we have now. Everything was controlled by the state. The people had no freedom to do anything. And then people wonder why there is poverty in India Rolling Eyes

The Scandinavian countries do seem to be doing well with their soft socialism, isn't it?
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Post by Senor Penguin Tue May 08, 2012 10:47 am

kiranr wrote:
Senor Penguin wrote:
I think that definition is a bit misleading, because I haven't seen either being implemented in such a fashion - neither theoretically nor practically.

States who defined themselves as communist (perhaps better defined as 'hard' socialist states, because they failed to fulfill the communist ideal) sought to impose socio-economic equality (a classless society) regardless of needs. They sought to distribute goods equally amongst its people. They also sought to abolish private corporations by taking control over the industry through a large public sector. The goal being common ownership, ergo the people own everything because the state is, supposedly, run by the people. Modern socialism ('soft' socialism) doesn't seek such a radical system. It does seek a strong public sector but does not acquire it by controlling private enterprise. Modern socialists support individual and financial liberties and develop societies through democratic reformism - 'hard' socialists through revolution.




The only way someone someone could retire at that age over here is by documenting an inability to work.




Well it works outside utilitarianism in the way that North Korea claims to be utilitarian but simply isn't in any shape or form. Smile

That is what happened in India after independence and is the reason for them mess that we have now. Everything was controlled by the state. The people had no freedom to do anything. And then people wonder why there is poverty in India Rolling Eyes
As Zizzle suggested, communism seems like a honorable ideal. A classless system where money doesn't corrupt. That is unfortunately utopia. When you attempt to realize such a utopia it mutates into a dystopia.

The Scandinavian countries do seem to be doing well with their soft socialism, isn't it?
They do. I think they've found an excellent balance between liberalism (individual and financial freedom) and socialism (state controlling industries).

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Post by kiranr Tue May 08, 2012 11:06 am

Senor Penguin wrote:
They do. I think they've found an excellent balance between liberalism (individual and financial freedom) and socialism (state controlling industries).

Minor state presence in industries is okay. It is when they compete the private players out of the industry where the problems begin.

I really hope we get a regime change, otherwise we are going remain like this, possibly worse than the current state.
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Post by Senor Penguin Tue May 08, 2012 11:19 am

kiranr wrote:
Senor Penguin wrote:
They do. I think they've found an excellent balance between liberalism (individual and financial freedom) and socialism (state controlling industries).

Minor state presence in industries is okay. It is when they compete the private players out of the industry where the problems begin.
I agree entirely. It's the only sensible thing to do based on current and previous political affairs. You have to let individuals and companies have as much freedom as possible. When their freedom begins to overlap and diminish the freedom of others, thus corrupting the country, the state should intervene and find methods to debilitate such 'freedom'.

I really hope we get a regime change, otherwise we are going remain like this, possibly worse than the current state.
Can't say that I know much about Indian affairs but I certainly hope you get a better future too, sir. India seems to be a country full of potential just waiting to be fulfilled.

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Post by Forza Tue May 08, 2012 12:12 pm

It's called a mixed-market economy, or mixed economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
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Post by Yuri Yukuv Tue May 08, 2012 12:28 pm

Oh god, penguin again with his Scandinavian rhetoric

The Scandinavian states are not full economies with everything in a closed system they are mostly export oriented economies which operate in the freest of all markets (global trade).

These states might have high taxes and a big government but they also minimize red tape and have some of the most flexible and free labor markets anywhere in the world (much much better than the rest of europe)

Here are some more stats

The Heritage Foundation has a ranking for economic freedom. Denmark comes in 9th, Finland 17th, Iceland 18th, Sweden 21st and Norway 37th out of 179 countries.

The Economic Freedom Network placed Denmark in 12th, Finland 16th, Iceland and Norway tied for 24th and Sweden came in 40th out of 141 countries.
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Post by Senor Penguin Tue May 08, 2012 12:57 pm

Yuri Yukuv wrote:Oh god, penguin again with his Scandinavian rhetoric

The Scandinavian states are not full economies with everything in a closed system they are mostly export oriented economies which operate in the freest of all markets (global trade).
You make it sound like I would disagree with this. I don't.

These states might have high taxes and a big government but they also minimize red tape and have some of the most flexible and free labor markets anywhere in the world (much much better than the rest of europe)
Which is heavily influenced by the so-called soft socialism ...

Here are some more stats

The Heritage Foundation has a ranking for economic freedom. Denmark comes in 9th, Finland 17th, Iceland 18th, Sweden 21st and Norway 37th out of 179 countries.

The Economic Freedom Network placed Denmark in 12th, Finland 16th, Iceland and Norway tied for 24th and Sweden came in 40th out of 141 countries.
Ugh, your Scandinavian rhetoric is so nauseating. :p

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Post by kiranr Tue May 08, 2012 1:24 pm

Senor Penguin wrote:
Can't say that I know much about Indian affairs but I certainly hope you get a better future too, sir. India seems to be a country full of potential just waiting to be fulfilled.

Thank you Senor. But it is really difficult. Socialism is so deeply entrenched in our psyche that people don't understand the concept of liberty and freedom anymore. They take the current policies running our country as a given.

It is going to be a huge challenge to reduce the size of our government and cut the bureaucratic bullshit that is going on currently.
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