Re: Lucas asked about Ronaldo

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:57 pm

jibers wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:It's not about Barcas service only... It is about the fact that Barcelona have 70% possession every game. Messi is never starved of possession, just chilling up front becoming an spectator while the opposition attack. The rythm of the game is always dominated by his team. His free role works because of it. He can take his time findding his game every game.

LOL no other player in World football can do what Messi si doing atm. Not Even Dinho could dop what Messi is doing. This is going round in circles. Most football experts are already sayin MEssi is the best ever, a word never used for R9. When SAF says MEssi is in the league with Di Stefano, Cruyff, Pele and MAradona, you sort of stand up and take notice. R9 was a great player, but there are too many what ifs and not enough done. 1 WC, he did not play a single game in 94 and flopped in the 98 final ( dont care for the reasons, my point is at his peak, he flopped).

And by the same logic no player in world football could do what R9 did at World Cups. And again, same logic, when Zidane, Benzema, Bobby Robson and Mourinho say R9 is the best player they have ever seen you take notice. Also, he literally dragged Brazil to the 98 final, fainted, went to hospital and was very ill just before it but was made to play by his sponsors, that's why he flopped.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:01 pm

paperbackwriter wrote:
jibers wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:It's not about Barcas service only... It is about the fact that Barcelona have 70% possession every game. Messi is never starved of possession, just chilling up front becoming an spectator while the opposition attack. The rythm of the game is always dominated by his team. His free role works because of it. He can take his time findding his game every game.

LOL no other player in World football can do what Messi si doing atm. Not Even Dinho could dop what Messi is doing. This is going round in circles. Most football experts are already sayin MEssi is the best ever, a word never used for R9. When SAF says MEssi is in the league with Di Stefano, Cruyff, Pele and MAradona, you sort of stand up and take notice. R9 was a great player, but there are too many what ifs and not enough done. 1 WC, he did not play a single game in 94 and flopped in the 98 final ( dont care for the reasons, my point is at his peak, he flopped).

Changing the argument? Im yet to see Messi do anything mindblowing for a full game while playing for à team with less Than 65 % possession.

Again, this^^^.

He plays for Argentina, does absolutely nothing, flops at both World Cups he has played in. Goes back to the play for the best team ever that have almost always got the ball, create a shit ton of chances and then he scores a load of goals. If the 20 year old R9 that played in a mediocre Barca team and still got 47 in 49 played for this Barca team he would score about 70 goals a season.

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:02 pm

Everyone has watched R9 play. So please dont bring such issues to this debate.

Until now, the biggest point in favour of Ronaldo is his WC performances. Now, WCs may be the biggest stage, but it is not the toughest. Sure the best players of each country play together. But this is a team game and when you play only once in 4 years, the level of play is obviously not going to be high. Needless to say, i think club football is tougher than international football.

As for the points about Barcelona's possession, game control, service, i dont even want to go into it. It has been debated to a great extent to no avail. Pep is good because of Messi who is good because of Xavi who is good because of Pep. Never seen anything like it before.

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:05 pm

aford92 wrote:
Again, this^^^.

He plays for Argentina, does absolutely nothing, flops at both World Cups he has played in. Goes back to the play for the best team ever that have almost always got the ball, create a shit ton of chances and then he scores a load of goals. If the 20 year old R9 that played in a mediocre Barca team and still got 47 in 49 played for this Barca team he would score about 70 goals a season.

1) Messi did not flop for Argentina.

2) Messi plays a huge role in creating the huge number of chances that you are talking about. Majority of the attacking plays go through him.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:10 pm

jibers wrote:
aford92 wrote:
jibers wrote:
aford92 wrote:
jibers wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:
jibers wrote:
aford92 wrote:
kiranr wrote:
paperbackwriter wrote:You can make exactly the same argument to why R9 don't have a CL as to why Messi don't have and probably never will have a WC gold medal. While Ronaldo have 2 gold and 1 silver.

He never played in a great club team. Put prime 1996-2002 Ronaldo uninjured in the Barcelona of today...

He would actually not perform as well as Messi. Nevertheless, if Ronaldo was put in this Barcelona team he would be better than he ever was, but still not as good as Messi.

Uninjured R9 in todays Barca team would be better than Messi IMO. Better finisher, more pace, stronger, better in the air.

Based on what? In the air? because Barcelona play a lot of long balls. Messi is a better finisher. Messi is a better dribbler and messi plays more decisive passes than R9 ever did.

What ever Messi can do, prime Ronaldo could do. Add to that the fact that he just like Ronaldinho knew how to use tricks effectively thus making him even more magical to watch. And he could shoot with both his feet equally well. Dribble as well with both feet. He was taller, stronger and faster.

These trick you talk about might look nice but Messi has a far better dribbling sucess rate than both Ronaldo and Dinho. Messi is a better dribbler and gets through far more people than both of them. Ronaldo han't done anything that has set him apart from anyone in history has he? Messi has. Top goal scorer in Barcelonas history at 24, is oon his way to scoring 60+ goals. The Messi vs R9 srguement ended when people started comparing Messi to Maradona and CRuyff, a league R9, sadly, is not part of.

Oh god.
Top scorer in World Cup history is nothing to set him apart? Maradona, Cruyff, Pele, Messi, Van Basten, all these players have played in World Cups and R9 did better than them all despite having a knee that didn't work. The World Cup is the biggest stage in football, he is the best player in World Cup history if that doesn't grant him access to that mythical league of top players then nobody deserves to be in it.

Messi broke R9's Barca record whilst playing for the best Barca team ever, I'm not trying to downplay his accomplishments because they are amazing but any professional striker, yes, even Heskey could score in that team, the service is insanse. If Messi had played in the same Barca team where there other best players were a very young Figo, Pep and Stoichkov as R9 at the age of 20 would he have gotten 47 goals in 49 games? I doubt it. Whilst Messi's is amazing you cannot deny that the fact that he plays for such a good team helps him hugely.

And R9 won the WC with a crap team? Please... the arguement works both ways. Heskey? Now I know you don't know wnaything about Barcelona. The same Barcelona where Ibra supposedkly flopped and Villa goyt his lowest goal tallyu in how many season? Lol seriously go and do your research.

When did I say that R9's Brazilian teams were bad? There still not as good as the Barca team that Messi plays with. I watch Barca every week, Heskey could score. Ibra didn't flop, how is 22 goals and 13 assists in 46 games in your first season flopping? Villa scored 23 goals, his lowest tally in 3 years from the WING, he had never played on the wing before in his life and still scored 23! Find me other players who plays on the wing (besides C.Ronaldo) that scored 23 goals in their first season at a new club. Especially when they have never played on the wing before.

Ibra is widely considered a flop considering he was the cf and scored like 2 goals in like 13 games before he finally left. Villa missed so many sitters. And Barcelona dont use winghers, they use inside forwards. So now you are comparuing club teams to NT? Seriously dude, most people agree that Messi is as good as Maradona. And Maradona was a level above R9. Messi over 4 years > than 8 good games R9 had in the WC.

So Villa missed sitters and yet still managed to score 23 goals in a new team and in a position he had never played in before. Ibra is considered a flop because of the price they paid for him, but 22 goals and 13 assists in your first season in a new country and a new club is good. And again, it's your opinion that Maradona is better than Messi and that Messi is better than R9. That doesn't make it fact. Me and a few others a presenting facts to support why we think R9 is better, you're just using opinions.

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:13 pm

aford92 wrote:

So Villa missed sitters and yet still managed to score 23 goals in a new team and in a position he had never played in before. Ibra is considered a flop because of the price they paid for him, but 22 goals and 13 assists in your first season in a new country and a new club is good. And again, it's your opinion that Maradona is better than Messi and that Messi is better than R9. That doesn't make it fact. Me and a few others a presenting facts to support why we think R9 is better, you're just using opinions.

Again, you seem to be missing an important point that many of these goals Villa and Ibra scored was created by Messi himself.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:13 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:
Again, this^^^.

He plays for Argentina, does absolutely nothing, flops at both World Cups he has played in. Goes back to the play for the best team ever that have almost always got the ball, create a shit ton of chances and then he scores a load of goals. If the 20 year old R9 that played in a mediocre Barca team and still got 47 in 49 played for this Barca team he would score about 70 goals a season.

1) Messi did not flop for Argentina.

2) Messi plays a huge role in creating the huge number of chances that you are talking about. Majority of the attacking plays go through him.

He did flop, and flopped hard! 2 World Cups, 1 goal and 2 assists. When you are the best player in the world and one of the best ever scoring 1 goal and getting 2 assists when the "Majority of the attacking plays go through him." A pathetic 1 goal and 2 assists in most definitely flopping.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:15 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:

So Villa missed sitters and yet still managed to score 23 goals in a new team and in a position he had never played in before. Ibra is considered a flop because of the price they paid for him, but 22 goals and 13 assists in your first season in a new country and a new club is good. And again, it's your opinion that Maradona is better than Messi and that Messi is better than R9. That doesn't make it fact. Me and a few others a presenting facts to support why we think R9 is better, you're just using opinions.

Again, you seem to be missing an important point that many of these goals Villa and Ibra scored was created by Messi himself.

And you're missing the point that the vast majority of the goals that Messi scores are created by Xaviesta, Villa, Pedro, Alexis, Busquets e.t.c. One of the main reasons he scores so many is because he plays in the best team of all time, and when they are not there, i.e. when he plays for Argentina, he flops.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:17 pm

My last few posts make it look like I'm calling Messi shit, when I'm not trying to. I think he is one of the best players ever and certainly the best in the world right now, but I think R9 is better.

by jibers Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:17 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:

So Villa missed sitters and yet still managed to score 23 goals in a new team and in a position he had never played in before. Ibra is considered a flop because of the price they paid for him, but 22 goals and 13 assists in your first season in a new country and a new club is good. And again, it's your opinion that Maradona is better than Messi and that Messi is better than R9. That doesn't make it fact. Me and a few others a presenting facts to support why we think R9 is better, you're just using opinions.

Again, you seem to be missing an important point that many of these goals Villa and Ibra scored was created by Messi himself.

What facts? The only facts that we have are their statistics and I'm sure we all know who would win if we used goals scored and created and successful dribbles made...

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:17 pm

aford92 wrote:

He did flop, and flopped hard! 2 World Cups, 1 goal and 2 assists. When you are the best player in the world and one of the best ever scoring 1 goal and getting 2 assists when the "Majority of the attacking plays go through him." A pathetic 1 goal and 2 assists in most definitely flopping.

Incomplete argument. He created a lot of chances for Argentina, but the team failed to convert them. The 2010 Argentina team was inefficient as hell with no coordination among any of their players where Messi was most often coming deep and collecting the ball from the defender. Considering the limitations, Messi had a great WC and did not flop by any means.

2010 was his first real world cup where he had a prominent role. He did not play the 2006 WC or he was just subbed in a few games.

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:22 pm

aford92 wrote:
And you're missing the point that the vast majority of the goals that Messi scores are created by Xaviesta, Villa, Pedro, Alexis, Busquets e.t.c. One of the main reasons he scores so many is because he plays in the best team of all time, and when they are not there, i.e. when he plays for Argentina, he flops.

In the vast majority of the goals scored by Messi, he plays a huge role in creating them.

From receiving the ball in the midfield to spraying them to the wings and then rushing to be at the end of a low cross for a goal to playing one - twos with Iniesta and slicing the defense. It is all there in his playbook. Messi is not just any regular forward waiting to feed off the service by his teammates. More often than not, he is part of that service.

That is what makes this Barcelona team great.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:24 pm

aford92 wrote:Also how did he play well as a creator at the WC? He got 1 assists in 2010 and 1 goal and 1 assist in 2006. So in 2 World Cups he has 1 goal and 2 assists if a creators job is to create goals he didn't do very well. R9 on the other hand got 15 goals and 4 assists in 3 World Cups.

I get the feeling you didn't watch his WC... here, enlighten yourself. As you can see he was the creative force behind 5 goals.

http://vimeo.com/13842320

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:27 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:

He did flop, and flopped hard! 2 World Cups, 1 goal and 2 assists. When you are the best player in the world and one of the best ever scoring 1 goal and getting 2 assists when the "Majority of the attacking plays go through him." A pathetic 1 goal and 2 assists in most definitely flopping.

Incomplete argument. He created a lot of chances for Argentina, but the team failed to convert them. The 2010 Argentina team was inefficient as hell with no coordination among any of their players where Messi was most often coming deep and collecting the ball from the midfielder. Considering the limitations, Messi had a great WC and did not flop by any means.

2010 was his first real world cup where he had a prominent role. He did not play the 2006 WC or he was just subbed in a few games.

So because he played for a worse team than Barca he got less goals and less assists. That's what I've been saying this entire thread. So in 2010 he was Argentina's main player, got given a vital role and yet only got 1 goal and 1 assist, he flopped.

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:30 pm

aford92 wrote:
So because he played for a worse team than Barca he got less goals and less assists. That's what I've been saying this entire thread. So in 2010 he was Argentina's main player, got given a vital role and yet only got 1 goal and 1 assist, he flopped.

Stop trivializing the issues. Worse team than Barcelona is an understatement. They had not legitimate formation, no tactic other than receive the ball and run toward the goal.

by Baraa Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:30 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Quite a few people, actually. He is more consistent and has won more at the highest stage - Ronaldo never lifted a CL, Messi is competing for his 4th right now.

have not you heard about something called world cup? :facepalm:

R9 scored 2 goals in the 2002 final ,
more than what messi scored in his entire 2 world cups :coffee:

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:30 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
aford92 wrote:Also how did he play well as a creator at the WC? He got 1 assists in 2010 and 1 goal and 1 assist in 2006. So in 2 World Cups he has 1 goal and 2 assists if a creators job is to create goals he didn't do very well. R9 on the other hand got 15 goals and 4 assists in 3 World Cups.
I get the feeling you didn't watch his WC... here, enlighten yourself. As you can see he was the creative force behind 5 goals.

http://vimeo.com/13842320

Basically what you just showed me is a highlights package, Freddy Adu looks like a world beater in a highlights package, the stats speak for themselves. 1 goals and 2 assists isn't good enough, end of story.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:32 pm

Baraa992 wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Quite a few people, actually. He is more consistent and has won more at the highest stage - Ronaldo never lifted a CL, Messi is competing for his 4th right now.

have not you heard about something called world cup?

R9 scored 2 goals in the 2002 final ,
more than what messi scored in his entire 2 world cups

This ^^^. Against a Prime Oli Kahn, who was voted player of the tournament despite R9 scoring 8 goals and dragged Germany to the final along with Klose. R9 beat him twice on the biggest stage in football. The second goal in particular was an amazing finish.

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:34 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:
So because he played for a worse team than Barca he got less goals and less assists. That's what I've been saying this entire thread. So in 2010 he was Argentina's main player, got given a vital role and yet only got 1 goal and 1 assist, he flopped.

Stop trivializing the issues. Worse team than Barcelona is an understatement. They had not legitimate formation, no tactic other than receive the ball and run toward the goal.

And to say that R9 played in a worse Barca team than Messi is an understatement, he still got 47 in 49. When Ronaldo plays for a team that's not so good he elevated his game, clearly Messi doesn't.

by Baraa Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:36 pm

comparing the 2 is just stupid IMO

At least , until messi's record in WC has more than his serbia goal (when his team won 6-0)

by Albiceleste Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:38 pm

Messi was named one of the top 10 players at the last world cup officially, doesn't matter if you say he flopped because he didn't score Laughing

Messi surpassed R9 already, he's in another league

by kiranr Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:39 pm

aford92 wrote:
And to say that R9 played in a worse Barca team than Messi is an understatement, he still got 47 in 49. When Ronaldo plays for a team that's not so good he elevated his game, clearly Messi doesn't.

Okay, let us just say that the Argentina team was way way worse than the 1996/97 Barcelona team who incidentally had Bobby Robson as the manager while Argentina had Maradona Laughing

by Baraa Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Albiceleste wrote:Messi was named one of the top 10 players at the last world cup officially, doesn't matter if you say he flopped because he didn't score

Messi surpassed R9 already, he's in another league

clearly , you started watching football in 2009

messi is also better than Maradona and pele, right?

by aford92 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:49 pm

kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:
And to say that R9 played in a worse Barca team than Messi is an understatement, he still got 47 in 49. When Ronaldo plays for a team that's not so good he elevated his game, clearly Messi doesn't.

Okay, let us just say that the Argentina team was way way worse than the 1996/97 Barcelona team who incidentally had Bobby Robson as the manager while Argentina had Maradona

Are you crazy?! Being a Newcastle fan I love Bobby Robson, but that Barca team was poor at best. Even though Ronaldo scored 47 goals they still finished 2nd. Take away Ronaldo from that Barca team and they would've struggled to finish in the top 8. Take away Messi from that Argentina team and it makes very litte difference. That Argentina squad had Samuel, Mascherano, Pastore, Tevez, Higuian, Di Maria, Milito. It was a top quality squad.

by Albiceleste Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:52 pm

aford92 wrote:
kiranr wrote:
aford92 wrote:
And to say that R9 played in a worse Barca team than Messi is an understatement, he still got 47 in 49. When Ronaldo plays for a team that's not so good he elevated his game, clearly Messi doesn't.

Okay, let us just say that the Argentina team was way way worse than the 1996/97 Barcelona team who incidentally had Bobby Robson as the manager while Argentina had Maradona

Are you crazy?! Being a Newcastle fan I love Bobby Robson, but that Barca team was poor at best. Even though Ronaldo scored 47 goals they still finished 2nd. Take away Ronaldo from that Barca team and they would've struggled to finish in the top 8. Take away Messi from that Argentina team and it makes very litte difference. That Argentina squad had Samuel, Mascherano, Pastore, Tevez, Higuian, Di Maria, Milito. It was a top quality squad.

Now I know you're trolling or just don't really know what you're talking about when it comes to the Argentina national team, didn't really expect you too though after some of the things you've said already

by Jeffren10Pedro Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:54 pm

come on people, i agree that Messi is the best player in the world by far, and one of the best of all times, but to say he is in another level to Ronaldo is just blasphemy.

I would put it this way:

League A: Garrincha, Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Cruyf, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldinho, Di Steffano, etc.

League B: Laudrup, Maldini, Beckenbauer, Zico, Kahn, Scmeichel, etc.

League C: Cristiano etc.

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