OFFTOPIC: Spanish National Team

The Spain team in my mind picks itself, more or less.

Jose Enrique leftback, you know who at centerbacks and Ramos will have to do at rightback.

Xavi, Busi and Iniesta in midfield. Your playing the Barca way, you put the Barca engine in the team.

Forwards, Silva on the right. The next 2 are based on opponant.

Villa always, but you facing a team and you need more mobility, play Pedro and move Villa to the center. Alot of fluidity there.

Need a target, leave Villa left and play Llorente.

Need speed in behind, if Torres finds is form play him center.

The Franchise wrote:
Double pivot system needs to go, doesnt work with Xavi and he Spain's best player.

Imo ever since the WC, Iniesta has been Spain's best player.

jose is exactly what Spain needs,a Alves-ish FB.Ramos and Capdevila are offensively.(and sometimes defensively)

harhar11 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
Double pivot system needs to go, doesnt work with Xavi and he Spain's best player.

Imo ever since the WC, Iniesta has been Spain's best player.

I might agree with that, but that is in a way indicating my point.

If Xavi was playing his usual role, maybe he would be playing his normal level too.

omarish wrote:Btw didn't Spain play a 4-4-2 in the WC? Their midfield was boss there too... They could continue

Carvajal () - Pique - Ramos - Enrique
Xabi Alonso - Busquets
Xavi ---------------- Iniesta
Morata () - Villa

Best starting XI

Both will endup @ Getafe

Khaledbarca wrote:

omarish wrote:Btw didn't Spain play a 4-4-2 in the WC? Their midfield was boss there too... They could continue

Carvajal () - Pique - Ramos - Enrique
Xabi Alonso - Busquets
Xavi ---------------- Iniesta
Morata () - Villa

Best starting XI

Both will endup @ Getafe

And then back at Madrid. By the way in the future Roma will be the Getafe of Barca.

Khaledbarca wrote:

omarish wrote:Btw didn't Spain play a 4-4-2 in the WC? Their midfield was boss there too... They could continue

Carvajal () - Pique - Ramos - Enrique
Xabi Alonso - Busquets
Xavi ---------------- Iniesta
Morata () - Villa

Best starting XI

Both will endup @ Getafe

Khaled trying his hand at trolling

I pretty much agree with Dani. The double pivot thing isn't really helping them anymore. I read that Alonso and Busquets just kept getting in each other's way for the last game.

If Enrique gets the eventual call up then the back 4 is obvious.

They should play 4-3-3 because it actually suits a lot of the players anyway, but 4-2-3-1 is also an option. Xavi is actually generally a deeplying playmaker. In any other team thats where he would play pretty much. The reason he's so far up is that Barca plays so far up, but if you watch his positioning it is generally behind the play with his receivers in front (including the fullbacks very often). This is why he played better in Aragones' 4-2-3-1 alongside Senna, and I still believe that team played better football.

If they keep 4-2-3-1... go with something like:


or

etc.

I think the core of the team has to be Barca's 3: Xavi, Busi, Iniesta.

The other three should be Silva, Villa and one player out of Pedro, Mata, Llorente, Fabregas.

Drop this idea of playing Fab as striker though... they aren't Barca, and never will be.

The Franchise wrote:The Spain team in my mind picks itself, more or less.

Jose Enrique leftback, you know who at centerbacks and Ramos will have to do at rightback.

Xavi, Busi and Iniesta in midfield. Your playing the Barca way, you put the Barca engine in the team.

Forwards, Silva on the right. The next 2 are based on opponant.

Villa always, but you facing a team and you need more mobility, play Pedro and move Villa to the center. Alot of fluidity there.

Need a target, leave Villa left and play Llorente.

Need speed in behind, if Torres finds is form play him center.

Interesting dani. I agree with everything else but the key dilemma is choosing between Cesc Fabregas and David Silva. Fabregas has two major strengths which can be very useful in the final third - his final passing and his goal scoring. D.Silva on the other hand can move on and off the ball a little better and is more versatile. It's a close choice but I am just going for Fabregas for now because I like the idea of having a diamond and playing him at the apex of it. His presence behind the strikers can give the attackers a little more ammunition and make the attack more lethal. We must remember that there is no Messi here and we need to avoid the possibility of the passing to death syndrome.

harhar11 wrote:
Imo ever since the WC, Iniesta has been Spain's best player.

Actually Iniesta has become Spain's best player and magic man ever since Del Bosque introduced the double pivot. Xavi should actually be the best player but since he is not used in his best role, he is not at his best. Iniesta is the one who has the free role, is expected to link the defense and attack and provide the magic moments. At the same time we must not forget that in the days of Aragones, Xavi was the best and most key player. So if we remove the double pivot we will very likely get Xavi at his best once again fitness permitting and he could once again be the team's best player just like dani has said.

The Franchise wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
Double pivot system needs to go, doesnt work with Xavi and he Spain's best player.

Imo ever since the WC, Iniesta has been Spain's best player.

I might agree with that, but that is in a way indicating my point.

If Xavi was playing his usual role, maybe he would be playing his normal level too.

I agree with that. Imo at the WC Xavi was playing way to high up on the pitch..

messixaviesta wrote:

harhar11 wrote:
Imo ever since the WC, Iniesta has been Spain's best player.

Actually Iniesta has become Spain's best player and magic man ever since Del Bosque introduced the double pivot. Xavi should actually be the best player but since he is not used in his best role, he is not at his best. Iniesta is the one who has the free role, is expected to link the defense and attack and provide the magic moments. At the same time we must not forget that in the days of Aragones, Xavi was the best and most key player. So if we remove the double pivot we will very likely get Xavi at his best once again fitness permitting and he could once again be the team's best player just like dani has said.

I agree. I don't understand why Del Bosque still plays with double pivots, when EVERYONE knows that they are playing much much worse with double pivots than with one..

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:The Spain team in my mind picks itself, more or less.

Jose Enrique leftback, you know who at centerbacks and Ramos will have to do at rightback.

Xavi, Busi and Iniesta in midfield. Your playing the Barca way, you put the Barca engine in the team.

Forwards, Silva on the right. The next 2 are based on opponant.

Villa always, but you facing a team and you need more mobility, play Pedro and move Villa to the center. Alot of fluidity there.

Need a target, leave Villa left and play Llorente.

Need speed in behind, if Torres finds is form play him center.

Interesting dani. I agree with everything else but the key dilemma is choosing between Cesc Fabregas and David Silva. Fabregas has two major strengths which can be very useful in the final third - his final passing and his goal scoring. D.Silva on the other hand can move on and off the ball a little better and is more versatile. It's a close choice but I am just going for Fabregas for now because I like the idea of having a diamond and playing him at the apex of it. His presence behind the strikers can give the attackers a little more ammunition and make the attack more lethal. We must remember that there is no Messi here and we need to avoid the possibility of the passing to death syndrome.

Strikers, as in more then 1?

So a 442 diamond?

2 strikers makes no sense unless you're giving David Villa a free role. Iniesta already has a free role and I think he deserves it more than villa.

harhar11 wrote:
I agree. I don't understand why Del Bosque still plays with double pivots, when EVERYONE knows that they are playing much much worse with double pivots than with one..

To understand that we need to revisit history and understand why this came about. In Euro 2008 we had Marcos Senna who was absolutely phenomenal. He protected the defense so well and also played like a deep lying play maker thus allowing Xavi to push up and make the whole team better. Unfortunately soon after that he succumbed to injuries, his level started going down and he couldn't continue to get an extended run in the team. It's at this time that Del Bosque used Xabi Alonso in that role. Initially that seemed to work but then those matches were against weaker opposition and/or were friendlies and thus the conclusions were misleading. This was brutally exposed in Confed 2009 where even though we must mention that Iniesta not being there made a huge difference, it still was clear that X.Alonso could not be the lone DM we needed. It's at this time that I predicted Spain had no chance of winning WC 2010. Then suddenly I noticed that in one of the friendlies Del Bosque used X.Alonso along with Busquets. I had never thought of this myself but the minute I saw it a light bulb went in my head that maybe this could be a possible solution to our DM woes. At that time I thought this system would be used only on very specific occasions. However Del Bosque began using it in general as seen right from the first match in WC 2010. In retrospect I think he was absolutely right even at the cost of angering all the purists. Busquets' lack of athleticism and not being great at tackling coupled with the fact that in those days he was not tough enough and prone to the odd mistake was one reason. Then we must remember we were the top favorites and everyone was targeting us. Extra protection was the need of the hour. We won the trophy and Del Bosque was proved right. However all this came with a cost. Our play was no longer as fluent and swashbuckling as before. It's henceforth that Busquets showed a meteoric rise and had a brilliant 2010-11 season. Hence it's time Del Bosque reconsiders whether we really need two DMs. The major issue I think is coaches in general are hesitant to change a winning combination. So at this point it unfortunately seems likely to me that we will play in the same way in Euro 2012 as well.

The Franchise wrote:
Strikers, as in more then 1?

So a 442 diamond?

Yes dani that's what I meant but there are quite a few counter-arguments and I am honestly not sure which formation and lineup is the very best.

messixaviesta wrote:

harhar11 wrote:
I agree. I don't understand why Del Bosque still plays with double pivots, when EVERYONE knows that they are playing much much worse with double pivots than with one..

To understand that we need to revisit history and understand why this came about. In Euro 2008 we had Marcos Senna who was absolutely phenomenal. He protected the defense so well and also played like a deep lying play maker thus allowing Xavi to push up and make the whole team better. Unfortunately soon after that he succumbed to injuries, his level started going down and he couldn't continue to get an extended run in the team. It's at this time that Del Bosque used Xabi Alonso in that role. Initially that seemed to work but then those matches were against weaker opposition and/or were friendlies and thus the conclusions were misleading. This was brutally exposed in Confed 2009 where even though we must mention that Iniesta not being there made a huge difference, it still was clear that X.Alonso could not be the lone DM we needed. It's at this time that I predicted Spain had no chance of winning WC 2010. Then suddenly I noticed that in one of the friendlies Del Bosque used X.Alonso along with Busquets. I had never thought of this myself but the minute I saw it a light bulb went in my head that maybe this could be a possible solution to our DM woes. At that time I thought this system would be used only on very specific occasions. However Del Bosque began using it in general as seen right from the first match in WC 2010. In retrospect I think he was absolutely right even at the cost of angering all the purists. Busquets' lack of athleticism and not being great at tackling coupled with the fact that in those days he was not tough enough and prone to the odd mistake was one reason. Then we must remember we were the top favorites and everyone was targeting us. Extra protection was the need of the hour. We won the trophy and Del Bosque was proved right. However all this came with a cost. Our play was no longer as fluent and swashbuckling as before. It's henceforth that Busquets showed a meteoric rise and had a brilliant 2010-11 season. Hence it's time Del Bosque reconsiders whether we really need two DMs. The major issue I think is coaches in general are hesitant to change a winning combination. So at this point it unfortunately seems likely to me that we will play in the same way in Euro 2012 as well.

You guys are taking this friendly way too seriously.Sure , some adjustments are needed but abandoning the double pivot system is a bad idea. It would almost certainly mean dropping Xabi and with that our entire attack converts to tiki taka , which has failed miserably in offense for all but one half against Chile.

ragbirjosh wrote:2 strikers makes no sense unless you're giving David Villa a free role. Iniesta already has a free role and I think he deserves it more than villa.

Well that's a good point. The problems with using Villa as the lone striker are that the burden of goal scoring is immense on his shoulders and his lack of pace means we have no pace in the final third especially since we are using midfielders like Iniesta and D.Silva alongside him instead of authentic fast wingers. To borrow a line from dani there will be no one to run behind the defense. Such a formation can easily lead to a lack of cutting edge and a passing to death syndrome. I have been thinking how to avoid this and when I saw cholla's lineup I came up with the diamond formation and using two strikers. It has it's pros and cons like every other system no doubt and I can't really be sure which is the best.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
Strikers, as in more then 1?

So a 442 diamond?

Yes dani that's what I meant but there are quite a few counter-arguments and I am honestly not sure which formation and lineup is the very best.

I think 2 striker systems are on the way out JD, it hinders teams too much in other areas.

I am not really for it, plus I think Silva is a cant miss player to have in the team. Even more so then Cesc.

..........................Casillas........................
......Ramos.........Puyol..............Pique.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Busquets.................
...............Xavi...............Xabi...........
......Silva..............................Iniesta
..............................Villa...............
...................Torres.........................

Xabi can play in busquets role and Fab can replace Xabi.

Fab can also play in iniesta role, iniesta can play in Villa's role , Villa can play in Torres role.

Llorente can replace torres.

3cb is tricky, but if anyone can pull it off it is Spain.

Busquets can play CB if Puyol is injured.

ragbirjosh wrote:

messixaviesta wrote:

harhar11 wrote:
I agree. I don't understand why Del Bosque still plays with double pivots, when EVERYONE knows that they are playing much much worse with double pivots than with one..

To understand that we need to revisit history and understand why this came about. In Euro 2008 we had Marcos Senna who was absolutely phenomenal. He protected the defense so well and also played like a deep lying play maker thus allowing Xavi to push up and make the whole team better. Unfortunately soon after that he succumbed to injuries, his level started going down and he couldn't continue to get an extended run in the team. It's at this time that Del Bosque used Xabi Alonso in that role. Initially that seemed to work but then those matches were against weaker opposition and/or were friendlies and thus the conclusions were misleading. This was brutally exposed in Confed 2009 where even though we must mention that Iniesta not being there made a huge difference, it still was clear that X.Alonso could not be the lone DM we needed. It's at this time that I predicted Spain had no chance of winning WC 2010. Then suddenly I noticed that in one of the friendlies Del Bosque used X.Alonso along with Busquets. I had never thought of this myself but the minute I saw it a light bulb went in my head that maybe this could be a possible solution to our DM woes. At that time I thought this system would be used only on very specific occasions. However Del Bosque began using it in general as seen right from the first match in WC 2010. In retrospect I think he was absolutely right even at the cost of angering all the purists. Busquets' lack of athleticism and not being great at tackling coupled with the fact that in those days he was not tough enough and prone to the odd mistake was one reason. Then we must remember we were the top favorites and everyone was targeting us. Extra protection was the need of the hour. We won the trophy and Del Bosque was proved right. However all this came with a cost. Our play was no longer as fluent and swashbuckling as before. It's henceforth that Busquets showed a meteoric rise and had a brilliant 2010-11 season. Hence it's time Del Bosque reconsiders whether we really need two DMs. The major issue I think is coaches in general are hesitant to change a winning combination. So at this point it unfortunately seems likely to me that we will play in the same way in Euro 2012 as well.

You guys are taking this friendly way too seriously.Sure , some adjustments are needed but abandoning the double pivot system is a bad idea. It would almost certainly mean dropping Xabi and with that our entire attack converts to tiki taka , which has failed miserably in offense for all but one half against Chile.

This is about more then a friendly, Spina havent played exciting football consistently in a VERY long time.

Your saying move about from Tiki Take because they struggled against Chile, but there is far more positive results coming from it which outweigh it.

ragbirjosh wrote:..........................Casillas........................
......Ramos.........Puyol..............Pique.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Busquets.................
...............Xavi...............Xabi...........
......Silva..............................Iniesta
..............................Villa...............
...................Torres.........................

Xabi can play in busquets role and Fab can replace Xabi.

Fab can also play in iniesta role, iniesta can play in Villa's role , Villa can play in Torres role.

Llorente can replace torres.

3cb is tricky, but if anyone can pull it off it is Spain.

Busquets can play CB if Puyol is injured.

But that isnt how the team will play. Xabi Alonso wont go that high up the field, he wants to get the ball from the back 4. Him and Busquets will again, be in each others way. Alonso doesnt have the game to play further forward.

And then you have Xavi who will end up playing centerally just to not unbalance the team, and its basically the same issue you get now.

Sigh.......why can't I make you guys understand.Defensively Tiki taka has been brilliant, if that makes any sense. We have to continue posession defense.

In attack due to the limited preparaton time for international football, and the long preparation time needed for tiki taka to work we need to keep our options open by having players on the team who can do more than tiki taka. Namely Alonso,Silva,Torres , Mata, Navas and Llorente. These players will give us other options preventing our offense from being stagnant .

The Franchise wrote:

ragbirjosh wrote:..........................Casillas........................
......Ramos.........Puyol..............Pique.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Busquets.................
...............Xavi...............Xabi...........
......Silva..............................Iniesta
..............................Villa...............
...................Torres.........................

Xabi can play in busquets role and Fab can replace Xabi.

Fab can also play in iniesta role, iniesta can play in Villa's role , Villa can play in Torres role.

Llorente can replace torres.

3cb is tricky, but if anyone can pull it off it is Spain.

Busquets can play CB if Puyol is injured.

But that isnt how the team will play. Xabi Alonso wont go that high up the field, he wants to get the ball from the back 4. Him and Busquets will again, be in each others way. Alonso doesnt have the game to play further forward.

And then you have Xavi who will end up playing centerally just to not unbalance the team, and its basically the same issue you get now.

On Alonso gonna keep it short and simple.He can play there.Trust me , He dosen't need everyhting to run through him to be effective . Yes he will sit back but I have busquets essentially as a sweeper there so they won't get in each other's way too much

On Xavi, Is it really too much to ask for him to play RCM , when he plays there for Barca anyway.In reality Alsono will lie deep and Xavi will advance but that will not unbalance the team.

ragbirjosh wrote:Sigh.......why can't I make you guys understand.Defensively Tiki taka has been brilliant, if that makes any sense. We have to continue posession defense.

In attack due to the limited preparaton time for international football, and the long preparation time needed for tiki taka to work we need to keep our options open by having players on the team who can do more than tiki taka. Namely Alonso,Silva,Torres , Mata, Navas and Llorente. These players will give us other options preventing our offense from being stagnant .

Nah stop that, that makes no sense to me.

Why would a team with its core and at least 6 Barca players playing in it at one time struggle with prep time? That isnt an issue.

Of course you need other players in the squad, they are quality, but if your playing a set style, you obviously play the best players for that style.

ragbirjosh wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

ragbirjosh wrote:..........................Casillas........................
......Ramos.........Puyol..............Pique.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Busquets.................
...............Xavi...............Xabi...........
......Silva..............................Iniesta
..............................Villa...............
...................Torres.........................

Xabi can play in busquets role and Fab can replace Xabi.

Fab can also play in iniesta role, iniesta can play in Villa's role , Villa can play in Torres role.

Llorente can replace torres.

3cb is tricky, but if anyone can pull it off it is Spain.

Busquets can play CB if Puyol is injured.

But that isnt how the team will play. Xabi Alonso wont go that high up the field, he wants to get the ball from the back 4. Him and Busquets will again, be in each others way. Alonso doesnt have the game to play further forward.

And then you have Xavi who will end up playing centerally just to not unbalance the team, and its basically the same issue you get now.

On Alonso gonna keep it short and simple.He can play there.Trust me , He dosen't need everyhting to run through him to be effective . Yes he will sit back but I have busquets essentially as a sweeper there so they won't get in each other's way too much

On Xavi, Is it really too much to ask for him to play RCM , when he plays there for Barca anyway.In reality Alsono will lie deep and Xavi will advance but that will not unbalance the team.

Your sounding like I never seen Alonso play, I assure you I have seen him enough times to know what he is about.

He and Busi both take up similar areas of the pitch, that is clear. Both sit deep in the midfield and never get in front of the ball.

And Xavi wouldnt being playing tha position you speak of, he wont have a pasing option to the left of him in midfield, because Alonso would be 10m or more behind him. Playing Alonso and Busi only serves to taking away a forward passing option to the best passer in the game, Xavi.

Because Xavi wont have an option left, he will need to take up a more centeralized role. Exactly like the number 10 type role we saw in the WC where while he played fairly well, it wasnt the Xavi I know.

I dont see the use of removing a forward passing option for Xavi when your team is already dominating the ball.