OFFTOPIC: Spanish National Team

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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:45 pm

3-0 for Spain!

2nd:what goaaaaaaaaaaaal!!
2-0

iniesta->villa-> negredo Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!l

3rd: Xaviiiiiiiiiiiii Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal (free-kick)
Nice Free-kick! Note: Xavi today is playing his 103rd match for Spain !!

3-0 HT!!

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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:48 pm

- Official: Spain Qualifies to euro 2012!
- David Villa scored his 49th Goals for Spain NT (Record)
- Xavi Played his 103rd match for Spain!
- Thiago made his Official Debut! ( this means he can't play for Brazil any more)!
Spain 6 - 0 Liechtenstein
`Goals: Negredo (assist by Xavi), Negredo (assist by Villa), Xavi (free-kick), Ramos (assist by Iniesta), Villa (2)
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:31 am

ragbirjosh wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Argentina wouldnt do that trade tommorow at all. I am sure some fans will, but anyone in charge wouldnt.

And this Barca system can be improved on? Not by the players you named.

Ramos might not be a problem (i somewhat disagree) but Dani Alves is a different beast, his role for Barca is a testament to that. To say he is reinventing what a fullback is capable of doing on a ptich isnt a overstatement.

Yeah, point taken about Russell and Wilt. However, dont ignore the fact Wilt was a serial choker and again, the Celtics had a superior TEAM.

I don't discount what alves is doing for Barca.Ramos however has been impecable at RB for spain in big tournaments.I don't see how you could have a problem with him.I don't even like him at RB , he is IMO a CB , yet has still amazed me with his performances for Spain.

The improvement of the system is the implementation of a quick counter attacking system.Xabi + Navas + Torres = great counter attacking play , to supplement Tiki Taka.The Barca system can be improved on, trust me.


Nope dont agree.

Barca initially dont use counter attacks, its not because of a lack of quality of a lack of personale, they could easily do with with the runners and passes they have. However, it goes against the entire point of the style to do so. If you play counter attack, you are not keeping possession, if you aint keeping possession you have to do more defending.

So no, Barca's system cannot be improved on by counter attacking supplementation. It will only detract from it.

Barca only counter attack numerical superority, which is very rare. Spanish counters wouldnt have numerical superior any more so then Barca either, no team will commit more attackers to attack then the number of Spainish attacks left up field.

Completely dissagree here. Counter attacking is absent from Barca, by design, not by lack of personale.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:35 am

messixaviesta wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Perhaps, but a 442 will suffer alot because of a lack of width. Teams already want to defend narrow top stop things coming through the middle, a 442 would invite them to make it even tighter and more narrow.

2. I dont have an exact reason. I just see David Silva as someone right now who is gamechanging in the final 3rd (this is not to say Cesc isnt of course) but with Xavi and Iniesta already playing Cesc cant give you anything they cannot other then off ball runs. Silva has a movement about him, an ability to go wide and come into the middle, a dribbling ability in the 1 v 1 or the small space. He just has alot of tools and playing him as a forward makes alot of sense to me over playing Cesc as another midfielder.

1. Yes dani I very much thought of that. Just hoped that S.Ramos and whoever is the LB will offer some width and our extraordinary midfield control will make the tradeoff acceptable. There are problems of course. This perhaps is not the best system. However I still feel that the 4-2-3-1 with Villa as lone striker that most people are suggesting suffers from a lack of pace in the final third which can become a more important factor than it seems at first glance. You might have noticed that Del Bosque is not unaware of this problem. He has hardly ever tried to play with one forward. He persisted with Torres for so long at WC 2010 long after almost everyone had given up on him and when he did eventually replace him he brought Pedro, another forward and not a midfielder. So while as you say two strikers system may not be the best idea but having one more forward in whatever capacity such as say a wide forward might become really important.

2. Interesting dani. I understand the crux of this is you intend to play D.Silva as a forward but given his versatility this will not compromise the midfield much. Now the one remaining player in this lineup I think should be someone with pace who can offer a more direct threat i.e. either a forward or at least a winger. I am thinking of names like Pedro, Juan Mata and even Jesus Navas assuming we do not get to see the best of Fernando Torres again. If we don't have pace then the other possibility is having someone who can be an aerial threat like Fernando Llorente or just a pure poacher who can make the most of the chances created. I am looking at players like Roberto Soldado and Alvaro Negredo though they are not exactly elite. Still my top preference is for adding pace with some goal scoring threat.


Perhaps JD. But if the fullbacks are the only width providers, they have to commit themselves to attack more then usual. Threfore leaving space. Benfica had this very same problem with their diamond last season. Its the ultimate flaw. You dont have width, so the fullbacks provide it, but by doing so have to overcommit to the attack.

I do agree with the remarks regarding an extra forward however.

On the number 2, points taken and understood.



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Post by ChollaVille Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:37 am

Torres is sh!t!!!
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Post by messixaviesta Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:18 am

The Franchise wrote:
Perhaps JD. But if the fullbacks are the only width providers, they have to commit themselves to attack more then usual. Threfore leaving space. Benfica had this very same problem with their diamond last season. Its the ultimate flaw. You dont have width, so the fullbacks provide it, but by doing so have to overcommit to the attack.

I do agree with the remarks regarding an extra forward however.

On the number 2, points taken and understood.

Thanks dani. I agree completely. We still haven't worked out what we can call the best formation and lineup for sure but with the plethora of options at our disposal Del Bosque will probably come up with something worthwhile. Perhaps the only position where Spain lack depth is the center back position and unfortunately that can be crucial.

One question - do you think there is any club or national team right now that can afford to play a diamond consistently or that system is now truly out of date?


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Post by matpol Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:08 pm

http://conlaroja.wordpress.com/

Good blog about La Furia Roja, a lot of good stories, interviews, memories from World Cup, etc.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:01 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
Perhaps JD. But if the fullbacks are the only width providers, they have to commit themselves to attack more then usual. Threfore leaving space. Benfica had this very same problem with their diamond last season. Its the ultimate flaw. You dont have width, so the fullbacks provide it, but by doing so have to overcommit to the attack.

I do agree with the remarks regarding an extra forward however.

On the number 2, points taken and understood.

Thanks dani. I agree completely. We still haven't worked out what we can call the best formation and lineup for sure but with the plethora of options at our disposal Del Bosque will probably come up with something worthwhile. Perhaps the only position where Spain lack depth is the center back position and unfortunately that can be crucial.

One question - do you think there is any club or national team right now that can afford to play a diamond consistently or that system is now truly out of date?


No, I dont think the system is out of date. But you really do need the players for it.

The best version of this formation I ermember in the last few years was Benfica when they had Ramieres and Di Maria as the "shuttlers"

Both work so hard, they provided width at the top end of the pitch but also had the ability to tuck inside to defend. They did it aswell as it gets those two.

Ramieres did more tucking in and Di maria was more free to provide width, but both were capable of doing either.

I actually didnt mind the idea behind it when Maradona did it, its reasonable, but you simply cant afford to not have the players for it. When the shuttlers dont have the work rate, speed, quickness, comfortable on the wing and defensive attitude..if one of those things is missing, you soon pay for it.

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Post by The Franchise Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Do I think a club could play this system now? I struggle to think of a club who have the right players.

Perhaps if you have any in mind I could make a decision in terms of my opinion, but I cant think of anyone right now.
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Post by free_cat Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:19 pm

Someone will win it: Germany, Spain, England, Italy, France, maybe even some other. Euros & WC are basically random since there are 3-4 one single game rounds and anyone can win at single rounds. Afterwards, people will talk of the winner as if it was inevitable that it had won. That they were clearly the best. But it's never like that. Had Paraguay scored the penalty spain would have been out most likely.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:55 pm

free_cat wrote:Someone will win it: Germany, Spain, England, Italy, France, maybe even some other. Euros & WC are basically random since there are 3-4 one single game rounds and anyone can win at single rounds. Afterwards, people will talk of the winner as if it was inevitable that it had won. That they were clearly the best. But it's never like that. Had Paraguay scored the penalty spain would have been out most likely.

Agreed cat. In how many world cups can we say that the winner was clearly the best team? I mean Brazil 1970 and Brazil 1958 first come to mind. After that maybe we can say Argentina 1986 purely for Maradona's brilliance but even that has the 'Hand of God' stigma attached to it. All others are easily debatable. Now let's come to the Euros. Germany 1972, France 1984, Netherlands 1988 and arguably Spain 2008 were really special but I would say all the others are quite debatable. So that's always the case. It's above all about the ability to rise to the occasion when it really matters and you do need a certain amount of luck no doubt. However is the case that much different in club football. Take UCL for example. How many UCLs can you think of in which the winner didn't have a slice of luck in even one crucial match and simply demolished everything in their path? I am quite sure the number will be really small. Finally we come to the league titles. These are probably the fairest because they examine your consistency right through the years. However even here there will be some real close shaves where two teams tied on points or had a one or two points difference between them. So there will be a few debatable ones but at least I can see these are the fairest. So if we want international football to be this fair we will need to have international leagues rather than knock out tournaments every few years but how would this be possible unless we reduced the dominance of club football.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:02 pm

The Franchise wrote:Do I think a club could play this system now? I struggle to think of a club who have the right players.

Perhaps if you have any in mind I could make a decision in terms of my opinion, but I cant think of anyone right now.

Excellent replies dani. Good question you have asked. I think Chelsea is leaning a little towards it. Mata as the number 10 play maker behind two strikers. Lampard on the left. Ramires on the right. Meireles as the sitter and deep lying passer. With both A.Cole and Bosingwa being attacking full backs it could work. Milan also use a 4-3-1-2 but it's quite different. They basically use a totally workmanlike midfield with very little creativity. I mean it's van Bommel in the center, Gattuso/Ambrosini/Flamini on the right and on the left it could be Nocerino/Seedorf/Aquilani. It's the left side that adds a little bit of creativity but the number 10 is another hard energetic worker with limited creativity in Kevin Prince Boateng. With Taiwo and Abate as attacking full backs they could give it a try but I am not very convinced it makes for a great team.

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Post by The Franchise Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:11 am

messixaviesta wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Do I think a club could play this system now? I struggle to think of a club who have the right players.

Perhaps if you have any in mind I could make a decision in terms of my opinion, but I cant think of anyone right now.

Excellent replies dani. Good question you have asked. I think Chelsea is leaning a little towards it. Mata as the number 10 play maker behind two strikers. Lampard on the left. Ramires on the right. Meireles as the sitter and deep lying passer. With both A.Cole and Bosingwa being attacking full backs it could work. Milan also use a 4-3-1-2 but it's quite different. They basically use a totally workmanlike midfield with very little creativity. I mean it's van Bommel in the center, Gattuso/Ambrosini/Flamini on the right and on the left it could be Nocerino/Seedorf/Aquilani. It's the left side that adds a little bit of creativity but the number 10 is another hard energetic worker with limited creativity in Kevin Prince Boateng. With Taiwo and Abate as attacking full backs they could give it a try but I am not very convinced it makes for a great team.

Intresting about Chelsea, perhaps its a way to go. However, I feel in the PL exclusively every team needs width. I am not 100% sure why, but it seems every team that has lacked it has struggled to play well. Lampard wont give width on the left, Ramires is proven formidable in the shuttler role but Di Maria as I said was on the other side.

The fullbacks are fine, but as I said, they will overcommit because of the lack of high width. Lampard cant play this shuttler role, even in his more energetic prime, let alone now.

I also think whoever sits deepest in this system has to be good defensively, like Javi Garcia is for Benfica. Raul M doesnt have those defensive skills, he didnt have them in Portugal and he would be an even bigger liability in the PL.


I think Chelsea are more suited to a 433, with the young and impressive Daniel Sturridge on the right, Mata on the left and a centerstriker who isnt Torres.

Milan are very centeralized because of their formation, its close enough to the same formation we are talking about here but again, Benfica have applied to very differently because of the players they had. The Milan midfielders dont have the ability to go wide and be effective there, so they are centeral and again, they lack width. Right now, Milan might be the most of all the big team to lack width.
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Post by messixaviesta Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:53 am

The Franchise wrote:
Intresting about Chelsea, perhaps its a way to go. However, I feel in the PL exclusively every team needs width. I am not 100% sure why, but it seems every team that has lacked it has struggled to play well. Lampard wont give width on the left, Ramires is proven formidable in the shuttler role but Di Maria as I said was on the other side.

The fullbacks are fine, but as I said, they will overcommit because of the lack of high width. Lampard cant play this shuttler role, even in his more energetic prime, let alone now.

I also think whoever sits deepest in this system has to be good defensively, like Javi Garcia is for Benfica. Raul M doesnt have those defensive skills, he didnt have them in Portugal and he would be an even bigger liability in the PL.

I think Chelsea are more suited to a 433, with the young and impressive Daniel Sturridge on the right, Mata on the left and a centerstriker who isnt Torres.

Milan are very centeralized because of their formation, its close enough to the same formation we are talking about here but again, Benfica have applied to very differently because of the players they had. The Milan midfielders dont have the ability to go wide and be effective there, so they are centeral and again, they lack width. Right now, Milan might be the most of all the big team to lack width.

Chelsea - Yes you have elaborated very well. It's probably more like a 4-3-3. Mata is however their chief play maker and has been given kind of a free role. Hence it at times resembles a 4-3-1-2. It's more dynamic though and the coach is probably well aware of the perils he would face if he used a rigid diamond.

Milan - Agree 100% with every word.

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Post by matpol Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:42 am

23 players called by Del Bosque for UEFA Euro 2012 qualifiers against Czech Republic and Scotland:

Goalkeepers: I. Casillas (Real Madrid), J. Reina (Liverpool FC), V. Valdés (FC Barcelona)

Defenders: S.Ramos, Á. Arbeloa, R. Albiol (all Real Madrid), C. Puyol, G. Piqué (both FC Barcelona), J. Alba (Valencia CF)

Midfielders: X. Hernández, S. Busquets, T. Alcántara, C. Fàbregas (all FC Barcelona), X. Alonso (Real Madrid), J. Martínez (Athletic Club), S. Cazorla (Málaga CF), D. Silva (Manchester City)

Forwards: D. Villa, P. Rodríguez (both FC Barcelona), J. Mata, F. Torres (both Chelsea FC), Á. Negredo (Sevilla FC), F. Llorente (Athletic Club)

Iniesta is injured, from WC squad Marchena, Capdevila and Navas are missing. No José Enrique, Mole will be sad.
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Post by The Sanchez Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:37 am

Fabregas is injuried so who is going to replace him? Forgot Inestia is back so he will replace him
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Post by The Sanchez Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:37 am

Fabregas is injuried so who is going to replace him? Forgot Inestia is back so he will replace him
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Post by BarcaKizz Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:41 pm

One game's enough to show that Jordi Alba should start instead of Arbeloa, who was a serious downgrade from Capdevila.
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:58 pm

Another superb performance by us.

Cazorla has shown he can carry the midfield with a solid partner.

Alba is looking VERY promising.

Busi anchored beautifully.

Xavi was well......Xavi.

Silva has shown why he needs to start every game. I would take him over Ozil any day any year.

Thiago was superb for the time he was on.

Villa showed why he is Espana's best striker of all time bar none (better then flop Raul).

Llorente for the time he was on made Espana have much more dimension in attack. Should start over Torres no doubt.

What I want? During the friendlies, I want experimentation.

People like Iraola, Munian, Vila, Jose Angel, ENRIQUE, Azpulicueta, Victor Ruiz, More Llorente, Botia, Monreal, Suso, Mata.

Vamos!!!
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Post by billy_gr Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:25 pm

I was dissatisfied with Valdes. He was really looking unsure and nervous
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:27 pm

billy_gr wrote:I was dissatisfied with Valdes. He was really looking unsure and nervous

I agreed, Valdes did not impress me.

I wan't Reina to start ahead of him and Casillas.
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Post by billy_gr Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:44 pm

Without any Barca bias, I have to say Victor deserves one more chance at least.
He is a great keeper, he just needs a confidence boost in the NT squad
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Post by BarcaKizz Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:02 pm

Can I ask why Valdes started? Whats wrong with Casillas? Was it just an 'oh heck I'll just give him a go' or is Iker injured?

It would be cool if Valdes got to take the #1 spot and he's clearly good enough, but Casillas is the captain and it won't happen. I dunno about 'he deserves another chance' or he doesn't, he's experienced and Del Bosque knows what he'd get from him. He's good enough, its clear, I don't think he needs to prove himself or anything. Judging him on 1 game vs a whole career is just silly. I think if he wants Valdes to start, he starts, if he wants Casillas, play Casillas.

At the end of the day, you'd bet your house Casillas will be there for much longer.

Agree with Arq that they should experiment, though not with all the names. Iraola- yes. Enrique- yes. Azpili- maybe. Victor Ruiz, Botia and Dominguez- yes. Mata, Soldado- yes.


BTW... just want to say... for all those who've known me for 3-4 years on this forum. All I gotta say is 'I TOLD YOU SO!' Daveeeeeeeed Silvaaaaaa! Very Happy
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Post by Guest Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:07 pm

BarcaKizz wrote:Can I ask why Valdes started? Whats wrong with Casillas? Was it just an 'oh heck I'll just give him a go' or is Iker injured?

It would be cool if Valdes got to take the #1 spot and he's clearly good enough, but Casillas is the captain and it won't happen. I dunno about 'he deserves another chance' or he doesn't, he's experienced and Del Bosque knows what he'd get from him. He's good enough, its clear, I don't think he needs to prove himself or anything. Judging him on 1 game vs a whole career is just silly. I think if he wants Valdes to start, he starts, if he wants Casillas, play Casillas.

At the end of the day, you'd bet your house Casillas will be there for much longer.

Agree with Arq that they should experiment, though not with all the names. Iraola- yes. Enrique- yes. Azpili- maybe. Victor Ruiz, Botia and Dominguez- yes. Mata, Soldado- yes.


BTW... just want to say... for all those who've known me for 3-4 years on this forum. All I gotta say is 'I TOLD YOU SO!' Daveeeeeeeed Silvaaaaaa! Very Happy

Casillas was rested from a decision by Del Bosque

So he will equal the national team appearance record at Wembley Stadium now instead of breaking it Sad

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Post by Le Samourai Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:11 am

Crimson wrote:
BarcaKizz wrote:Can I ask why Valdes started? Whats wrong with Casillas? Was it just an 'oh heck I'll just give him a go' or is Iker injured?

It would be cool if Valdes got to take the #1 spot and he's clearly good enough, but Casillas is the captain and it won't happen. I dunno about 'he deserves another chance' or he doesn't, he's experienced and Del Bosque knows what he'd get from him. He's good enough, its clear, I don't think he needs to prove himself or anything. Judging him on 1 game vs a whole career is just silly. I think if he wants Valdes to start, he starts, if he wants Casillas, play Casillas.

At the end of the day, you'd bet your house Casillas will be there for much longer.

Agree with Arq that they should experiment, though not with all the names. Iraola- yes. Enrique- yes. Azpili- maybe. Victor Ruiz, Botia and Dominguez- yes. Mata, Soldado- yes.


BTW... just want to say... for all those who've known me for 3-4 years on this forum. All I gotta say is 'I TOLD YOU SO!' Daveeeeeeeed Silvaaaaaa! Very Happy

Casillas was rested from a decision by Del Bosque

So he will equal the national team appearance record at Wembley Stadium now instead of breaking it Sad

Dude casillas is going to end up doubling than national team record.Good luck to any other player aspiring to break that.
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Post by messixaviesta Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:58 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Another superb performance by us.

Cazorla has shown he can carry the midfield with a solid partner.

Alba is looking VERY promising.

Busi anchored beautifully.

Xavi was well......Xavi.

Silva has shown why he needs to start every game. I would take him over Ozil any day any year.

Thiago was superb for the time he was on.

Villa showed why he is Espana's best striker of all time bar none (better then flop Raul).

Llorente for the time he was on made Espana have much more dimension in attack. Should start over Torres no doubt.

What I want? During the friendlies, I want experimentation.

People like Iraola, Munian, Vila, Jose Angel, ENRIQUE, Azpulicueta, Victor Ruiz, More Llorente, Botia, Monreal, Suso, Mata.

Vamos!!!

Very nice post man. I had no idea you are a supporter of Spain.

As Euro 2012 is approaching Spain is coming back to somewhere near their best. This is really interesting because Germany have probably been the most in-form national team in Europe and have barely put a foot wrong. As dani said some time back the big question that remains is whether they are good enough to beat Spain because they have probably already shown that they are good enough to do everything else that is needed to be champions. Let us not forget that Germany is one of those nations that has a habit of over-achieving with weak teams. This time anything short of the trophy will be considered a failure. Then there is Netherlands who are right on par with these two - at least if Robben and Sneijder are both fully fit. Then again Euro is a notoriously unpredictable tournament. Some team that looks weak now could easily end up winning it.

Cazorla has always been a good player but his sale from Villarreal to Malaga has probably made the world notice him more. Now he is in a team where he is MVP and the team is doing well. If this continues then he can make an even bigger name for myself.

I have watched Alba for Valencia and he is quite good. I didn't see this match but I agree Spain's left back position deserves thought. Some time back mole had suggested Jose Enrique but he is yet to be picked. So that's unlikely.

D.Silva > Ozil? That's a bold statement to make. I think it's very close and I would reserve judgment for some more time. I especially want to see how they perform in several big match situations - during the season and even more at Euro 2012. Personally I consider both of them slightly inferior to Iniesta but very good players in their own right. As far as D.Silva is concerned this has been like his breakthrough season when he has become kind of like MVP at ManCity and is playing for a team with a genuine chance of winning big things. Unfortunately for him they have started very badly in UCL and have a very rough ride ahead in order to try to qualify for the knock outs.





messixaviesta
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