OFFTOPIC: Spanish National Team

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Post by The Franchise Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:57 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
ragbirjosh wrote:..........................Casillas........................
......Ramos.........Puyol..............Pique.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Busquets.................
...............Xavi...............Xabi...........
......Silva..............................Iniesta
..............................Villa...............
...................Torres.........................

Xabi can play in busquets role and Fab can replace Xabi.

Fab can also play in iniesta role, iniesta can play in Villa's role , Villa can play in Torres role.

Llorente can replace torres.

3cb is tricky, but if anyone can pull it off it is Spain.

Busquets can play CB if Puyol is injured.

But that isnt how the team will play. Xabi Alonso wont go that high up the field, he wants to get the ball from the back 4. Him and Busquets will again, be in each others way. Alonso doesnt have the game to play further forward.

And then you have Xavi who will end up playing centerally just to not unbalance the team, and its basically the same issue you get now.


On Alonso gonna keep it short and simple.He can play there.Trust me , He dosen't need everyhting to run through him to be effective . Yes he will sit back but I have busquets essentially as a sweeper there so they won't get in each other's way too much

On Xavi, Is it really too much to ask for him to play RCM , when he plays there for Barca anyway.In reality Alsono will lie deep and Xavi will advance but that will not unbalance the team.

Your sounding like I never seen Alonso play, I assure you I have seen him enough times to know what he is about.

He and Busi both take up similar areas of the pitch, that is clear. Both sit deep in the midfield and never get in front of the ball.

And Xavi wouldnt being playing tha position you speak of, he wont have a pasing option to the left of him in midfield, because Alonso would be 10m or more behind him. Playing Alonso and Busi only serves to taking away a forward passing option to the best passer in the game, Xavi.

Because Xavi wont have an option left, he will need to take up a more centeralized role. Exactly like the number 10 type role we saw in the WC where while he played fairly well, it wasnt the Xavi I know.

I dont see the use of removing a forward passing option for Xavi when your team is already dominating the ball.



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Post by Le Samourai Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:43 pm

Well that's where we disagree, In international football you adapt a style that will put the best player's on the field for the most part.Spain can not do that because they have 6 players from Barca , but they will never reach their true potential doing that.

On the Alonso Issue. I definitely see the point that you're making . Now my initial reaction will be to move Alonso to Busquets role and play Fabregas. I know that in your opinion Alonso dosen't have what it takes to play that role , so let's say for argument's sake that we keep Busquets and drop Alonso for fabregas. Do you think that it could work or No?

One last point. Anytime we have wingers like Mata , Navas , and Forwads like Llorente and Torres , Alonso needs to be on the field to maximize their effect. That is partly why I'm so reluctant to drop him. If mata and Torres gain form and end up deserving a place in the starting 11 then you have to play Xabi as well.When they come on you have to bring on Xabi

This season you will see us play with a Sahin Alonso double pivot and you will see that a Fabregas Alonso or even a Xavi Alonso double pivot system can indeed work.
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Post by harhar11 Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:43 am

ragbirjosh wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
I agree. I don't understand why Del Bosque still plays with double pivots, when EVERYONE knows that they are playing much much worse with double pivots than with one..

To understand that we need to revisit history and understand why this came about. In Euro 2008 we had Marcos Senna who was absolutely phenomenal. He protected the defense so well and also played like a deep lying play maker thus allowing Xavi to push up and make the whole team better. Unfortunately soon after that he succumbed to injuries, his level started going down and he couldn't continue to get an extended run in the team. It's at this time that Del Bosque used Xabi Alonso in that role. Initially that seemed to work but then those matches were against weaker opposition and/or were friendlies and thus the conclusions were misleading. This was brutally exposed in Confed 2009 where even though we must mention that Iniesta not being there made a huge difference, it still was clear that X.Alonso could not be the lone DM we needed. It's at this time that I predicted Spain had no chance of winning WC 2010. Embarassed Then suddenly I noticed that in one of the friendlies Del Bosque used X.Alonso along with Busquets. I had never thought of this myself but the minute I saw it a light bulb went in my head that maybe this could be a possible solution to our DM woes. At that time I thought this system would be used only on very specific occasions. However Del Bosque began using it in general as seen right from the first match in WC 2010. In retrospect I think he was absolutely right even at the cost of angering all the purists. Busquets' lack of athleticism and not being great at tackling coupled with the fact that in those days he was not tough enough and prone to the odd mistake was one reason. Then we must remember we were the top favorites and everyone was targeting us. Extra protection was the need of the hour. We won the trophy and Del Bosque was proved right. However all this came with a cost. Our play was no longer as fluent and swashbuckling as before. It's henceforth that Busquets showed a meteoric rise and had a brilliant 2010-11 season. Hence it's time Del Bosque reconsiders whether we really need two DMs. The major issue I think is coaches in general are hesitant to change a winning combination. So at this point it unfortunately seems likely to me that we will play in the same way in Euro 2012 as well.

You guys are taking this friendly way too seriously.Sure , some adjustments are needed but abandoning the double pivot system is a bad idea. It would almost certainly mean dropping Xabi and with that our entire attack converts to tiki taka , which has failed miserably in offense for all but one half against Chile.

It's not just the friendly against chile though. Spain have been less free flowing since the WC(even though they won the WC)

to messixaviesta, great post but if Del Bosque is such a great manager he should have already figured out that the double pivot isn't working out.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:37 am

ragbirjosh wrote:Well that's where we disagree, In international football you adapt a style that will put the best player's on the field for the most part.Spain can not do that because they have 6 players from Barca , but they will never reach their true potential doing that.

On the Alonso Issue. I definitely see the point that you're making . Now my initial reaction will be to move Alonso to Busquets role and play Fabregas. I know that in your opinion Alonso dosen't have what it takes to play that role , so let's say for argument's sake that we keep Busquets and drop Alonso for fabregas. Do you think that it could work or No?

One last point. Anytime we have wingers like Mata , Navas , and Forwads like Llorente and Torres , Alonso needs to be on the field to maximize their effect. That is partly why I'm so reluctant to drop him. If mata and Torres gain form and end up deserving a place in the starting 11 then you have to play Xabi as well.When they come on you have to bring on Xabi

This season you will see us play with a Sahin Alonso double pivot and you will see that a Fabregas Alonso or even a Xavi Alonso double pivot system can indeed work.

Hold on, your saying by putting those 6 Barca players on the pitch (i was talking about Puyol, Pique, Busi, Iniesta, Xavi and Villa) they are not putting their best on the pitch? I strongly dissagree if that is what you meant.

As for your second paragraph and question, I certanitly think it can work. It could even be Alonso instead of Busquets and I think it will work better then now, against the majority of teams anyway.

Your point about the wingers and forwards you named playing with Alonso, could you elaborate a little more on that so I know exactly where your coming from? Are you saying his ability to spread the play with accurate long passes are needed when these guys are on the pitch? Or something else?

Sahin and Alonso in a double pivot, I dont discount it working. However, I dont think that would be idea defensively against strong teams. If Spain used Alonso and say Cesc in a double pivot against weaker teams, I wouldnt object because they wont have many defensive concerns. Its against strong teams I wouldnt choose that, either with Spain or Madrid.

Another issue is, if you use the double pivot with those two Spain players, where does Xavi play? He looks uncomfortable as a number 10 and I dont think he should play there. For Madrids its ok, Ozil can do that role.

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Post by messixaviesta Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:34 am

The Franchise wrote:
I think 2 striker systems are on the way out JD, it hinders teams too much in other areas.

I am not really for it, plus I think Silva is a cant miss player to have in the team. Even more so then Cesc.

1. Agreed but in this case as I have said before using only Villa means overburdening him and a lack of pace in the final third I think is a big deficiency.

2. Please explain why David Silva is more of a must have than Cesc Fabregas. I don't really disagree - just want to understand your exact views.


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Post by messixaviesta Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:39 am

ragbirjosh wrote:we need to keep our options open by having players on the team who can do more than tiki taka. Namely Alonso,Silva,Torres , Mata, Navas and Llorente. These players will give us other options preventing our offense from being stagnant .

No one is saying we should drop those players. We need those players and others to play various kinds of roles from the bench. Del Bosque showed that very well in WC 2010. One player who we never mention but whose contribution was significant in WC 2010 is Jesus Navas. Del Bosque showed what a wonderful tactician he is in his use of Navas and quite a few other impact players and substitutes in general.


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Post by messixaviesta Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:44 am

harhar11 wrote:
to messixaviesta, great post but if Del Bosque is such a great manager he should have already figured out that the double pivot isn't working out.

Thanks. You have a point. I will confess I am a big fan of Vicente Del Bosque - perhaps the biggest at this forum. He is reluctant to change what has worked in the past and I understand it to some extent. I do think there is a possibility he could change it in the future but I am not sure. Not every manager can be Pep Guardiola who tries to mend what is not broken and to the astonishment of everyone more often than not succeeds and proves that it can be done. Smile

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Post by Le Samourai Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:32 am

The Franchise wrote:
ragbirjosh wrote:Well that's where we disagree, In international football you adapt a style that will put the best player's on the field for the most part.Spain can not do that because they have 6 players from Barca , but they will never reach their true potential doing that.

On the Alonso Issue. I definitely see the point that you're making . Now my initial reaction will be to move Alonso to Busquets role and play Fabregas. I know that in your opinion Alonso dosen't have what it takes to play that role , so let's say for argument's sake that we keep Busquets and drop Alonso for fabregas. Do you think that it could work or No?

One last point. Anytime we have wingers like Mata , Navas , and Forwads like Llorente and Torres , Alonso needs to be on the field to maximize their effect. That is partly why I'm so reluctant to drop him. If mata and Torres gain form and end up deserving a place in the starting 11 then you have to play Xabi as well.When they come on you have to bring on Xabi

This season you will see us play with a Sahin Alonso double pivot and you will see that a Fabregas Alonso or even a Xavi Alonso double pivot system can indeed work.

Hold on, your saying by putting those 6 Barca players on the pitch (i was talking about Puyol, Pique, Busi, Iniesta, Xavi and Villa) they are not putting their best on the pitch? I strongly dissagree if that is what you meant.

As for your second paragraph and question, I certanitly think it can work. It could even be Alonso instead of Busquets and I think it will work better then now, against the majority of teams anyway.

Your point about the wingers and forwards you named playing with Alonso, could you elaborate a little more on that so I know exactly where your coming from? Are you saying his ability to spread the play with accurate long passes are needed when these guys are on the pitch? Or something else?

Sahin and Alonso in a double pivot, I dont discount it working. However, I dont think that would be idea defensively against strong teams. If Spain used Alonso and say Cesc in a double pivot against weaker teams, I wouldnt object because they wont have many defensive concerns. Its against strong teams I wouldnt choose that, either with Spain or Madrid.



Another issue is, if you use the double pivot with those two Spain players, where does Xavi play? He looks uncomfortable as a number 10 and I dont think he should play there. For Madrids its ok, Ozil can do that role.


My only issue is Busquets v Alonso. I personally think Alonso can do most of what Busquets does defensively, and a heck of a lot more offensively.Also Spain plays full team defense , starving the opposition of the Ball,hence the defensive work is basically cleaning up with interceptions etc.Busquets only argument is that he plays for Barca week in week out.

About the wingers and Forwads.Personally I think that keeping them on the Field gives Spain much more dynamism in attack , without sacrificing anything in defence, and without sacrificing much in terms of tiki taka football.Specifically, if torres regains form , for me he must start , and from there, you have to give him a wide player maximize effectiveness.Alsonso's ability to Spread the ball and initiate counter attacks is crucial to how well both torres and the winger's perform.I see Spain as team defence and not individual defence, so the argument about stonger opposition I discount. Once they can play their posession starving game properly they will be fine.

On the point about Xavi. Xavi can play next to Alonso/Fab.RCM.Xavi played almost the entire EURO in that role tho , except the final, and the EURO were Xavi's best displays ever in my opinion.

The thing about Spain is that right now , they are Basically trying to be Barca , but are ending up being Barca lite, with Barca's defense but not their offense. I think Spain has the potential to be much more than Barca, because they, overall have much more talent and their talent is much more varied.At the end of this generation I want Spain to be considered , the best team in history , not just a Barca Knockoff without messi,still just good enough to win everything.They have the talent to do it , all they need to do is adapt the system that will allow it to happen.



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Post by ChollaVille Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:55 am

Tournaments are not leagues, so you have to change your team from game to game, Del Bosque knows that and he done it on WC10.

There is no starting 11, against some teams you play some players, against other teams you play other players. Formation can change shape few times in game.

Against Netherland and Germany you need midfield domination, technical players and good defense. Becouse they will fight for midfield so you need 4-2-3-1. If you need to attack more you can bring in Pedro or fit Torres.

- - - - - - Casillas
Ramos Pique Puyol Enrique
- - - - -Xavi Busquets
Silva - - Fabregas - - Iniesta
- - - - - - - Villa

Italy and England will probably not fight for midfield but they will defend very good so you can use 4-3-3 with big man and inside fowards. After positiv result bring on Cesc for Llorente, Silva for Pedro and Xabi for Xavi. If they have positive result and park the bus, Cesc in, Enrique out and play 3-4-3.

- - - - - - - Casillas
Ramos Pique Puyol Enrique
- - - Xavi Busquets Iniesta
- - - - Pedro Llorente Villa

If you play against Argentina or Brazil than use false 9, so you can transform and balance formation. Silva and Xabi can be brought in to calm the game.

- - - - - - - Casillas
Ramos Pique Puyol Enrique
- - - Xavi Busquets Iniesta
- - - -Pedro Fabregas Villa
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:25 pm

messixaviesta wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
I think 2 striker systems are on the way out JD, it hinders teams too much in other areas.

I am not really for it, plus I think Silva is a cant miss player to have in the team. Even more so then Cesc.

1. Agreed but in this case as I have said before using only Villa means overburdening him and a lack of pace in the final third I think is a big deficiency.

2. Please explain why David Silva is more of a must have than Cesc Fabregas. I don't really disagree - just want to understand your exact views.


Perhaps, but a 442 will suffer alot because of a lack of width. Teams already want to defend narrow top stop things coming through the middle, a 442 would invite them to make it even tighter and more narrow.

2. I dont have an exact reason. I just see David Silva as someone right now who is gamechanging in the final 3rd (this is not to say Cesc isnt of course) but with Xavi and Iniesta already playing Cesc cant give you anything they cannot other then off ball runs. Silva has a movement about him, an ability to go wide and come into the middle, a dribbling ability in the 1 v 1 or the small space. He just has alot of tools and playing him as a forward makes alot of sense to me over playing Cesc as another midfielder.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:34 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:
The Franchise wrote:
ragbirjosh wrote:Well that's where we disagree, In international football you adapt a style that will put the best player's on the field for the most part.Spain can not do that because they have 6 players from Barca , but they will never reach their true potential doing that.

On the Alonso Issue. I definitely see the point that you're making . Now my initial reaction will be to move Alonso to Busquets role and play Fabregas. I know that in your opinion Alonso dosen't have what it takes to play that role , so let's say for argument's sake that we keep Busquets and drop Alonso for fabregas. Do you think that it could work or No?

One last point. Anytime we have wingers like Mata , Navas , and Forwads like Llorente and Torres , Alonso needs to be on the field to maximize their effect. That is partly why I'm so reluctant to drop him. If mata and Torres gain form and end up deserving a place in the starting 11 then you have to play Xabi as well.When they come on you have to bring on Xabi

This season you will see us play with a Sahin Alonso double pivot and you will see that a Fabregas Alonso or even a Xavi Alonso double pivot system can indeed work.

Hold on, your saying by putting those 6 Barca players on the pitch (i was talking about Puyol, Pique, Busi, Iniesta, Xavi and Villa) they are not putting their best on the pitch? I strongly dissagree if that is what you meant.

As for your second paragraph and question, I certanitly think it can work. It could even be Alonso instead of Busquets and I think it will work better then now, against the majority of teams anyway.

Your point about the wingers and forwards you named playing with Alonso, could you elaborate a little more on that so I know exactly where your coming from? Are you saying his ability to spread the play with accurate long passes are needed when these guys are on the pitch? Or something else?

Sahin and Alonso in a double pivot, I dont discount it working. However, I dont think that would be idea defensively against strong teams. If Spain used Alonso and say Cesc in a double pivot against weaker teams, I wouldnt object because they wont have many defensive concerns. Its against strong teams I wouldnt choose that, either with Spain or Madrid.



Another issue is, if you use the double pivot with those two Spain players, where does Xavi play? He looks uncomfortable as a number 10 and I dont think he should play there. For Madrids its ok, Ozil can do that role.


My only issue is Busquets v Alonso. I personally think Alonso can do most of what Busquets does defensively, and a heck of a lot more offensively.Also Spain plays full team defense , starving the opposition of the Ball,hence the defensive work is basically cleaning up with interceptions etc.Busquets only argument is that he plays for Barca week in week out.

About the wingers and Forwads.Personally I think that keeping them on the Field gives Spain much more dynamism in attack , without sacrificing anything in defence, and without sacrificing much in terms of tiki taka football.Specifically, if torres regains form , for me he must start , and from there, you have to give him a wide player maximize effectiveness.Alsonso's ability to Spread the ball and initiate counter attacks is crucial to how well both torres and the winger's perform.I see Spain as team defence and not individual defence, so the argument about stonger opposition I discount. Once they can play their posession starving game properly they will be fine.

On the point about Xavi. Xavi can play next to Alonso/Fab.RCM.Xavi played almost the entire EURO in that role tho , except the final, and the EURO were Xavi's best displays ever in my opinion.

The thing about Spain is that right now , they are Basically trying to be Barca , but are ending up being Barca lite, with Barca's defense but not their offense. I think Spain has the potential to be much more than Barca, because they, overall have much more talent and their talent is much more varied.At the end of this generation I want Spain to be considered , the best team in history , not just a Barca Knockoff without messi,still just good enough to win everything.They have the talent to do it , all they need to do is adapt the system that will allow it to happen.




Right, well I certaintly disagree about Busi and Alonso as we already know. So lets leave that there.

I take you wingers and forward point but I dont agree that this is something Spain need to start with. They need legit forwards no doubt and against certain opponants I would even star them. But putting the best players on the pitch is what you want to do, aslong as there is balance, and by leaving many of them out, you do that.

As for Torres, vastly overrated even when he was good for that 2 year spell. Now, he might be finished, lets wait and see. A possesion based playing style with someone who has a shockingly inconsistent first touch doesnt sound great and when you watch and watched him play, you saw that.

As for Xavi. I already explained, Alonso wouldnt play next to Xavi. He would naturally go back deeper because thats his game and Xavi wouldnt have a partner in there. I foyu saynig force Alonso to stop going back to collect the ball and actually play in that position, then why pick him when there are better options for it?

I dont really agree with you last paragraph. Having a great depth of talent and having many different kinds of talent doesnt make up for a lack of Messi and a lack of Dani Alves. As great as all those players are your thinking of, you can t play them all and I think if they could, they would swap Messi for that group of players (Navas, Mata, Silva, Llorente, Torres) in an instant.

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Post by Le Samourai Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:17 pm

Ok,your Torres point is fair and it illustrates why I said he needed a natural winger and Alsonso to maximize his effectiveness. Personally I don't think he was overrated at all for those 2 years, he was brilliant for Spain and especially Liverpool, but you disagree so moving on.......

As is seen in my formation Cesc can start next to Xavi. That raises questions about the Alonso Busquets issue but we already know that our opinions differ so we can leave it at that.

Don't take this the wrong way , but Dani Alves? really?. He's amazing for Barcelona, but Ramos is extraordinary for Spain in Big competitions.All in all my formation dosen't have a RB so I don't see this as a problem.

Messi.................Maybe they would trade all those players for Messi but they would be stupid to do so.I personally would not.I don't want Spain to be Barca lite and neither should any of You.If we can find a way to integrate the individual systems of Counter Attacking and Tiki Taka , which is what I believe we should aspire to do , and which would make use of all our talent, then , we can not only be better than the current Barca team, but better than any team in History, without Messi.Evidently you feel this is implausible and over zealous, so again we must disagree.

NOTE: That is not in any way a Knock on Lionel Messi's talent .I have expressed my admiration for him since day 1. You don't always need the best player to be the best team.As an NBA fan you should know about this - Bill Russel and the Auerbach Celtics.

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Post by jibers Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:25 pm

............Valdes...................
Ramos....Puyol....pique.......Arbeloa
...............Busquets....................
............Xavi.......iniesta..................
Pedro...........Cesc...........Villa.........

How this is not the line up is beyond me.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:37 pm

jibers wrote:............Valdes...................
Ramos....Puyol....pique.......Enrique
...............Busquets....................
............Xavi.......iniesta..................
Silva...........Cesc...........Villa.........

How this is not the line up is beyond me.

Fixed :coffee:

Pedro and Silva is debateable but Enrique and Arbeloa is'nt Wink
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Post by Le Samourai Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:38 pm

jibers wrote:............Valdes...................
Ramos....Puyol....pique.......Arbeloa
...............Busquets....................
............Xavi.......iniesta..................
Pedro...........Cesc...........Villa.........

How this is not the line up is beyond me.

scratch
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:43 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:
jibers wrote:............Valdes...................
Ramos....Puyol....pique.......Arbeloa
...............Busquets....................
............Xavi.......iniesta..................
Pedro...........Cesc...........Villa.........

How this is not the line up is beyond me.

scratch

Valdes has been in better form than Casillas and suits the tiki taka game better i dont think Casillas deserves to be dropped for him regardless....

I actually did'nt notice that when i responded to his post i was too busy taking Arbeloa and Pedro out for Enrique and Silva Very Happy
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Post by Nishankly Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:49 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Jose Enrique>>>>>>>>all

Seriously iam certain if he played Madrid or Barca he would 50+ caps by now extremely underrated imho.

This.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:43 pm

ragbirjosh wrote:Ok,your Torres point is fair and it illustrates why I said he needed a natural winger and Alsonso to maximize his effectiveness. Personally I don't think he was overrated at all for those 2 years, he was brilliant for Spain and especially Liverpool, but you disagree so moving on.......

As is seen in my formation Cesc can start next to Xavi. That raises questions about the Alonso Busquets issue but we already know that our opinions differ so we can leave it at that.

Don't take this the wrong way , but Dani Alves? really?. He's amazing for Barcelona, but Ramos is extraordinary for Spain in Big competitions.All in all my formation dosen't have a RB so I don't see this as a problem.

Messi.................Maybe they would trade all those players for Messi but they would be stupid to do so.I personally would not.I don't want Spain to be Barca lite and neither should any of You.If we can find a way to integrate the individual systems of Counter Attacking and Tiki Taka , which is what I believe we should aspire to do , and which would make use of all our talent, then , we can not only be better than the current Barca team, but better than any team in History, without Messi.Evidently you feel this is implausible and over zealous, so again we must disagree.

NOTE: That is not in any way a Knock on Lionel Messi's talent .I have expressed my admiration for him since day 1. You don't always need the best player to be the best team.As an NBA fan you should know about this - Bill Russel and the Auerbach Celtics.


So in your view Ramos is as good as Dani Alves?

Of all the dissagreements on the issues, this is the biggest one if that is the case. I will leave it at that for now.

How would they be Barca lite with Messi? Him and Alves aer the only key pieces missing. They would be more or less (minus Abidal) the exact 11.

Lets not get into the Boston Celtics and Bill Russell, an era in NBA history with less teams to face and other rule changes and so on. Also note, you dont need the best player to win (as shown in Bill Russell) but he wasnt alone on those Boston Teams. They had other great players and they won because they had the best talent aswell as coaching and many other factos.

Anyway, its not about puting the best players in the team, its just about doing what makes sense. In this hypothetical world of course.

Spain is Barca minus Dani Alves, Abidal and Messi..the starting 11 has the ability to be exactly the same minus those 3.

Barca are without question the best team right now, that is without debate.

So, if you could swap some of the players to get even closer to that Barca team, why on earth wouldnt you do it?

I dont think there is anyway you can convince me that having lets say David Silva, Mata, Llorente and Navas is better then having just Messi.



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Post by Le Samourai Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:52 pm

Lol I'm saying that the Barca system can be improved on and that Spain has the talent to do it.Argentina would do the trade tomorrow.

Ramos as good as Alves ? No. However Ramos has hardly been a problem for Spain, he has put in great performance after great performance for Spain in a position that is not is. Overall my prospective formation has Ramos as a CB and not a RB anyway.

Note: Wilt averaged 50 a game with 25 rebounds, one season.Statistically , Russel was meh.I doubt the celtics would have traded Russel alone much less any of the other the great players they had for Wilt, even though he was clearly the best player they had and would fit Auerbach's system like a glove.

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Post by The Franchise Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:16 pm

Argentina wouldnt do that trade tommorow at all. I am sure some fans will, but anyone in charge wouldnt.

And this Barca system can be improved on? Not by the players you named.

Ramos might not be a problem (i somewhat disagree) but Dani Alves is a different beast, his role for Barca is a testament to that. To say he is reinventing what a fullback is capable of doing on a ptich isnt a overstatement.

Yeah, point taken about Russell and Wilt. However, dont ignore the fact Wilt was a serial choker and again, the Celtics had a superior TEAM.
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Post by messixaviesta Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:44 pm

The Franchise wrote:
Perhaps, but a 442 will suffer alot because of a lack of width. Teams already want to defend narrow top stop things coming through the middle, a 442 would invite them to make it even tighter and more narrow.

2. I dont have an exact reason. I just see David Silva as someone right now who is gamechanging in the final 3rd (this is not to say Cesc isnt of course) but with Xavi and Iniesta already playing Cesc cant give you anything they cannot other then off ball runs. Silva has a movement about him, an ability to go wide and come into the middle, a dribbling ability in the 1 v 1 or the small space. He just has alot of tools and playing him as a forward makes alot of sense to me over playing Cesc as another midfielder.

1. Yes dani I very much thought of that. Just hoped that S.Ramos and whoever is the LB will offer some width and our extraordinary midfield control will make the tradeoff acceptable. There are problems of course. This perhaps is not the best system. However I still feel that the 4-2-3-1 with Villa as lone striker that most people are suggesting suffers from a lack of pace in the final third which can become a more important factor than it seems at first glance. You might have noticed that Del Bosque is not unaware of this problem. He has hardly ever tried to play with one forward. He persisted with Torres for so long at WC 2010 long after almost everyone had given up on him and when he did eventually replace him he brought Pedro, another forward and not a midfielder. So while as you say two strikers system may not be the best idea but having one more forward in whatever capacity such as say a wide forward might become really important.

2. Interesting dani. I understand the crux of this is you intend to play D.Silva as a forward but given his versatility this will not compromise the midfield much. Now the one remaining player in this lineup I think should be someone with pace who can offer a more direct threat i.e. either a forward or at least a winger. I am thinking of names like Pedro, Juan Mata and even Jesus Navas assuming we do not get to see the best of Fernando Torres again. If we don't have pace then the other possibility is having someone who can be an aerial threat like Fernando Llorente or just a pure poacher who can make the most of the chances created. I am looking at players like Roberto Soldado and Alvaro Negredo though they are not exactly elite. Still my top preference is for adding pace with some goal scoring threat.


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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:06 pm

Euro 2012 Qualifers: Spain vs Liechtenstein

1st half Just started!!

`Starting Line-up:

Casillas
Ramos Busquets Albiol Arbeloa
Alonso
Xavi Iniesta
Mata Negredo Villa

--------------------

Spain played 5 matches vs Liechtenstein (5W 0D 0L) scoring 17 goals & didn't conceed any goal
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Post by Le Samourai Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:14 pm

The Franchise wrote:Argentina wouldnt do that trade tommorow at all. I am sure some fans will, but anyone in charge wouldnt.

And this Barca system can be improved on? Not by the players you named.

Ramos might not be a problem (i somewhat disagree) but Dani Alves is a different beast, his role for Barca is a testament to that. To say he is reinventing what a fullback is capable of doing on a ptich isnt a overstatement.

Yeah, point taken about Russell and Wilt. However, dont ignore the fact Wilt was a serial choker and again, the Celtics had a superior TEAM.

I don't discount what alves is doing for Barca.Ramos however has been impecable at RB for spain in big tournaments.I don't see how you could have a problem with him.I don't even like him at RB , he is IMO a CB , yet has still amazed me with his performances for Spain.

The improvement of the system is the implementation of a quick counter attacking system.Xabi + Navas + Torres = great counter attacking play , to supplement Tiki Taka.The Barca system can be improved on, trust me.

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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:36 pm

1-0 Spain 33'
Negredo (assist by Xavi!!)
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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:37 pm

1-0 Spain 33'
Negredo (assist by Xavi!!) Very Happy
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Post by Khaled Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:45 pm

3-0 for Spain!

2nd:what goaaaaaaaaaaaal!!
2-0

iniesta->villa-> negredo Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!l

3rd: Xaviiiiiiiiiiiii Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal (free-kick)
Nice Free-kick! Note: Xavi today is playing his 103rd match for Spain !!

3-0 HT!!
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