Re: The Racism Thread

[Pedram]

Macron got so humilliated by right-wing National Rally he called for early elections

JUST IN:  French President Macron dissolves the National Assembly and calls for new parliamentary elections. pic.twitter.com/6hEl6PNCeB

— BRICS News (@BRICSinfo) June 9, 2024

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-parliament-poised-rightward-shift-after-final-voting-2024-06-09/

Actually a smart move by Macron

RN will probably win the elections in a month and Jordan Bardella (a guy my age with no experience whatsoever at governing) will probably because prime minister. The odds of him and his party falling from grace are very high. Then Macron or another "centrist" candidates will win the presidentials in 2027.

The far-left party LFI painted themselves in a corner recently with the unrelenting support for Palestine, it's basically all they talk about, they lost votes because they are now seen as islamists.

Got it, if you talk about any injustice around the world and the IDF's mass murder in Gaza you are automatically an Islamist.

So if some party in France has a moral compass regarding an ongoing genocide it's actually seen as a bad thing? what a fucked up world we live in.

[Warrior]

Yes that's what i read. The main reason why LFI lost votes is because of their insistance on the topic.

However they are not the only party with a moral compass, and i think most people all around the world support Palestine over Israel.

[McLewis]

How are european countries doing the bare minimum for refugees ? What more should they do ?

I answered this in my initial post. These countries made the mistake of assuming these folks would be grateful purely for the respite from the unrest they escaped, not realizing that these folks' way of life is vastly different. They expected that gratitude to organically become self-assimilation into their new home country's culture. When that didn't happen, resentment set in and the shift to the political right began.

There is a ton more these countries should've done. The very fact they are oblivious to this is the problem.

[Warrior]

You did not answer

These countries made the mistake of assuming these folks would be grateful purely for the respite from the unrest they escaped, not realizing that these folks' way of life is vastly different. They expected that gratitude to self-assimilation into their new home country's culture. When that didn't happen, resentment set in.

That's an assumption YOU make, nothing concrete here, everybody knows it's not that simple

There is a ton more these countries should've done. The very fact they are oblivious to this is the problem.

What should they have done ?

[El Gunner]

Sounds to me like Europe did the bare minimum to try and meet these folks where they were. To understand what they needed in order to be able to truly feel at home in these foreign countries. Instead, white Europeans looked down their noses at these people even as they "welcomed", as if the action itself is enough to erase the centuries of unrest caused by Europe in these regions. As if these folks should be eternally grateful just for the privilege to be in the presence of such benevolence. It's no wonder this shit has gone sideways.

Colonization is a motherfucker.

i just think people are tribalistic and will never get along with each other, colonisation is indeed a motherfucker, but a motherfucker we will collectively have to deal with as a collective species until we hopefully blow up and wipe out our corrupt and sickening species on one fateful day

let's not pretend colonisation is a purely "white or european" thing

[El Gunner]

How are european countries doing the bare minimum for refugees ? What more should they do ?

I answered this in my initial post. These countries made the mistake of assuming these folks would be grateful purely for the respite from the unrest they escaped, not realizing that these folks' way of life is vastly different. They expected that gratitude to organically become self-assimilation into their new home country's culture. When that didn't happen, resentment set in and the shift to the political right began.

There is a ton more these countries should've done. The very fact they are oblivious to this is the problem.

i'm not so sure about this, it seems like you're trying to lay the blame at the feet of the europeans for everything after they've already done so much for the immigrants, it's just a very complicated situation... one that is impossible to perfectly plan for and foresee a majority of the consequences (such is life)

i have an Italian-South Africa friend... we met in 2019 while i was living in South Africa, that same year his father passed away and the following year he and his girlfriend (now wife) moved to Italy (he did the supposed right thing here, how Africans keep on insisting that Europeans should move back to their homelands)

he says he has a love for South Africa (how any normal human being growing up in a country would), but the racial tension was a huge reason he left the country... he has a story of one time when he and his girlfriend were victims of a racially-motivated home invasion while still living in SA and multiple other minor instances which stripped away some of the love and security he felt for himself in the country
(now i'm not defending him for this because i don't know what racists stuff he has done himself throughout his life and of course he won't certainly tell me of those if he indeed has any such skeletons in his closet, but i just thought this was worth the mention because this is the daily plight of many Whites in modern day SA)

4 years back in Italy now, he occasionally keeps me up to date about the immigrant situation there. He says a lot of the immigrants live better than some working class Italians because they get a healthy sum of government grants on a daily basis and free housing, and it makes it easy for them to avoid finding a job and contribute to the country, because they can just keep on exploiting this system. This is indeed on the Italian government because this just sounds stupid to me. How could they not foresee this, and how do they plan on successfully transitioning the immigrants into the workforce of the country.

[Thimmy]

I’ve always thought you were a sensible guy in general  @McLewis , but you have an incredibly strong tendency to jump to conclusions and assume the worst in people - particularly when race is involved, or assumed to be involved in the discussion. There are a lot of different cultures and viewpoints in this world, and you can’t always analyze situations accurately based on your personal experiences.


When I was visiting a refugee camp in Rosengård, Sweden a few years ago, the frustration among the majority of the immigrants wasn’t due to some type of oppression or lack of empathy from Swedish natives. It was frequently mentioned that they were scared and frustrated by the lack of action taken by the Swedish police. The worst parts of Rosengård have been called «no go zones» in international media, and that’s not an exaggeration.

The minority of people who turned it into something like a civilized warzone are armed with guns and molotov cocktails, and the situation has never quite elevated to the point where military force has been absolutely necessary. Violence, extreme vandalism, rape, theft and a few homicides have occurred there over the past decade or so, and no one seems to know how to approach the situation and get things back on the right track. It’s a politically sensitive area as well, so they opted to distance themselves instead of ensuring that the citizens (who are largely made up of immigrants) are safe.

There’s no convenient solution where the whites just need to get their shit together and see things from their point of view. A militant approach obviously had consequences, and their diplomatic attempts haven’t worked up until now.

It’s a lose/lose situation for everyone involved. And as Mystats has mentioned, the amount of radical right wingers in Europe is on the rise these days. It’s not a situation that can be conveniently solved, and racism or xenophobia isn’t always the driver behind every problem that occurs in this world.

[Myesyats]

How are european countries doing the bare minimum for refugees ? What more should they do ?

I answered this in my initial post. These countries made the mistake of assuming these folks would be grateful purely for the respite from the unrest they escaped, not realizing that these folks' way of life is vastly different. They expected that gratitude to organically become self-assimilation into their new home country's culture. When that didn't happen, resentment set in and the shift to the political right began.

There is a ton more these countries should've done. The very fact they are oblivious to this is the problem.

Can you give specific examples of what more exactly can be done other that housing and benefits? You cant realistically handle this, we are not talking about a healthy migration system, this is thousands of people arriving at a time with no screening and even as risky as that is they seem to have been given more than enough time to settle in

Europeans, by and large, believe migrants have actually been given too much leeway which they perceive as weakness and thus exploit it, as El Gunner mentioned

Some of the countries like Sweden that bend over backwards and have the most robust integration and welfare systems (I think they even created a separate ministry/department that deals with integration) have the most issues with integration and gang violence.

[Myesyats]

It’s a lose/lose situation for everyone involved. And as Mystats has mentioned, the amount of radical right wingers in Europe is on the rise these days. It’s not a situation that can be conveniently solved, and racism or xenophobia isn’t always the driver behind every problem that occurs in this world.

Clearly the answer isnt as simple as just whites becoming more understanding and empathetic. They really tried to be in countries such as Sweden and now they regret it, they cared more for the migrants than their own citizens so i dont really see how looking down on someone is the problem, believe me people don't spit at brown people for no reason. Most people are nice, unless there comes a point where there is a reason not to be

[Myesyats]

The political shift in France is quite drastic

We will return all refugees to their homelands without exception,”

says Marine Le Pen, the leader of the Rassemblement National, after victory in EU vote. pic.twitter.com/rCZdxVJvL3

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) June 11, 2024

[McLewis]

A couple of you asked this question: What more could Europe have done for these immigrants?

The very framing of this question is problematic because, at least to me, it comes off as patronizing. It reeks of bitterness at perceived ungratefulness when that's very likely not the case.

My wife comes from a family of social workers. This reminds me a lot of stories her relatives would tell me of foster families taking in kids who have endured traumatic abuse and then acting indignant, bitter, and spiteful when the kids act out due to the trauma they experienced and/or have not come out of their shells in whatever arbitrary window of time the foster parents feel should've been enough. It tells me that they adopted these kids for the personal adulation of doing so. That they loved the idea of adopting these kids more than the actual reality of doing so.

So what more could the parents have done? These are just for starters:

- Showing empathy by fostering a safe and nurturing environment.
- Ensure their charges' mental health needs were being met so that healing from the trauma can begin.
- Letting them know that it's ok to come out of that bubble and that nothing bad will happen because of it.
- Displaying patience and understanding when the results of the above don't come as quickly they expected.

Now let's take the above and apply it to this immigration situation, especially considering how maternalistic Europe has always seen itself to the rest of the world. They're clearly the foster parents here.

There's a saying we have in the African American community - "Meet people where they are in their lives.". It means that it's not about you. It's about the people you're trying to help. It's about putting yourself in their shoes and moving accordingly. Europe have failed to do this and it's why they find themselves in the situation they're in. Had they done the work to truly understand who these people are, what their needs are, and the help they would need to put behind the trauma they are fleeing from, all of this would've gone much smoother. Instead, my sense is that political expediency, arrogance co-mingled with at least some genuine desire to help, prevailed instead.

This is my observation: Europe are that exasperated foster parent who is pissed off their adopted kids aren't acclimating to their new environments fast enough for their liking. They're pissed off that the adopted kids are acting out and instead of getting help in understanding why, they've resorted to repeatedly punishing the kids and separating them from their birth children (native-born Europeans), who see these folks as rivals for the resources within the house (attention, food, amenities, etc.). That has created an environment of division, animosity, distrust, disrespect, and ultimately ignorance. It's a Petrie dish for hatred.

The bullet points I outlined above would've gone a long way in preventing this, but all of that requires critical thought and genuine empathy. Maybe the latter was there right at the start, but impatience set in far too quickly for any progress to truly be made. All of this shit takes time and lots of hard work. That needed to be understood from the beginning. There will be ups and downs. There will be growing pains. It's like these leaders did not tell their people this shit and expected none of these problems to pop up. I find that astonishing.

[McLewis]

Sounds to me like Europe did the bare minimum to try and meet these folks where they were. To understand what they needed in order to be able to truly feel at home in these foreign countries. Instead, white Europeans looked down their noses at these people even as they "welcomed", as if the action itself is enough to erase the centuries of unrest caused by Europe in these regions. As if these folks should be eternally grateful just for the privilege to be in the presence of such benevolence. It's no wonder this shit has gone sideways.

Colonization is a motherfucker.

i just think people are tribalistic and will never get along with each other, colonisation is indeed a motherfucker, but a motherfucker we will collectively have to deal with as a collective species until we hopefully blow up and wipe out our corrupt and sickening species on one fateful day

let's not pretend colonisation is a purely "white or european" thing

When have Africans and/or Muslims colonized the whole of Europe in the way Europe colonized damn near the entire globe? I can think of only Muslim Spain and the Ottoman Empire perhaps, but neither ever penetrated deep enough into Europe to truly control all of it. Both were historically mere speed bumps when looking at the totality of human history.

How are european countries doing the bare minimum for refugees ? What more should they do ?

I answered this in my initial post. These countries made the mistake of assuming these folks would be grateful purely for the respite from the unrest they escaped, not realizing that these folks' way of life is vastly different. They expected that gratitude to organically become self-assimilation into their new home country's culture. When that didn't happen, resentment set in and the shift to the political right began.

There is a ton more these countries should've done. The very fact they are oblivious to this is the problem.

4 years back in Italy now, he occasionally keeps me up to date about the immigrant situation there. He says a lot of the immigrants live better than some working class Italians because they get a healthy sum of government grants on a daily basis and free housing, and it makes it easy for them to avoid finding a job and contribute to the country, because they can just keep on exploiting this system. This is indeed on the Italian government because this just sounds stupid to me. How could they not foresee this, and how do they plan on successfully transitioning the immigrants into the workforce of the country.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on Italian government, but my observation has been that whether Italy has been well-run from a government perspective will vary vastly based on generation. I think people forget that the Italy we know today is still less than 200 years old. It's younger than the US from that standpoint. As with other European nations, they made a good decision to take in immigrants from war-torn countries. Unfortunately, the "let's get them here and then figure out the rest out later" line of thinking continues to be super flawed. It's like these countries haven't realized that one can walk and chew gum at the same time. When the decision was made to bring these immigrants in, that should've triggered several policy initiatives to help them acclimate along side their native-born peers rather than in direct competition of them. An empathetic decision that resulted in a failure of foresight and planning.

[Myesyats]

A couple of you asked this question: What more could Europe have done for these immigrants?

The very framing of this question is problematic because, at least to me, it comes off as patronizing. It reeks of bitterness at perceived ungratefulness when that's very likely not the case.

My wife comes from a family of social workers. This reminds me a lot of stories her relatives would tell me of foster families taking in kids who have endured traumatic abuse and then acting indignant, bitter, and spiteful when the kids act out due to the trauma they experienced and/or have not come out of their shells in whatever arbitrary window of time the foster parents feel should've been enough. It tells me that they adopted these kids for the personal adulation of doing so. That they loved the idea of adopting these kids more than the actual reality of doing so.

So what more could the parents have done? These are just for starters:

- Showing empathy by fostering a safe and nurturing environment.
- Ensure their charges' mental health needs were being met so that healing from the trauma can begin.
- Letting them know that it's ok to come out of that bubble and that nothing bad will happen because of it.
- Displaying patience and understanding when the results of the above don't come as quickly they expected.

Now let's take the above and apply it to this immigration situation, especially considering how maternalistic Europe has always seen itself to the rest of the world. They're clearly the foster parents here.

There's a saying we have in the African American community - "Meet people where they are in their lives.". It means that it's not about you. It's about the people you're trying to help. It's about putting yourself in their shoes and moving accordingly. Europe have failed to do this and it's why they find themselves in the situation they're in. Had they done the work to truly understand who these people are, what their needs are, and the help they would need to put behind the trauma they are fleeing from, all of this would've gone much smoother. Instead, my sense is that political expediency, arrogance co-mingled with at least some genuine desire to help, prevailed instead.

This is my observation: Europe are that exasperated foster parent who is pissed off their adopted kids aren't acclimating to their new environments fast enough for their liking. They're pissed off that the adopted kids are acting out and instead of getting help in understanding why, they've resorted to repeatedly punishing the kids and separating them from their birth children (native-born Europeans), who see these folks as rivals for the resources within the house (attention, food, amenities, etc.). That has created an environment of division, animosity, distrust, disrespect, and ultimately ignorance. It's a Petrie dish for hatred.

The bullet points I outlined above would've gone a long way in preventing this, but all of that requires critical thought and genuine empathy. Maybe the latter was there right at the start, but impatience set in far too quickly for any progress to truly be made. All of this shit takes time and lots of hard work. That needed to be understood from the beginning. There will be ups and downs. There will be growing pains. It's like these leaders did not tell their people this shit and expected none of these problems to pop up. I find that astonishing.

I dont think the problem is impatience. The base line is that Europe is not, and probably will never be America, Canada or Australia. We have a different sense of national identity compared to these countries as they were not formed in the same way. I think one requirement for migrants to be granted permanent stay should be to learn the native language. There needs to be effort and goodwill from both sides to assimilate.

I will use the example of Ukrainians. Generally, we do look down on them. They are as white as we are, but shared historical "bumps" ensure that there is an underlying resentment and sometimes hatred. Not as much as towards Russians (who are almost entirely unwelcome), but believe me there is. We accepted 1.5M Ukrainian refugees, possibly even more than 2 million. The rule was simple: you get benefits for half a year, not more than a year, then you have to find work. It is not required, but the similarity of our languages allows them to quickly pick up the language and, suprisingly, in no time speak it fluently without an accent, or slight accent which you can rarely ever detect.

I don't believe skin color plays a part here, more so than their willingness to adhere to the rules that are required. They could just as well decline to play the game by our rules and create parallel societies separate from each other. But they do not, they make an effort to learn the language right away, they show real incentive to integrate.

This is why I don't get the line of thinking that the issues lies only, or primarily, at the feet of the host country. If you go to someone's house, do you not adhere to their rules? If I am a guest in someone's home, and they have a rule of taking off their shoes at the door, I take my shoes off at the door. How could you put the blame at the host? Do you go to someone's house and order them around?

[McLewis]

I’ve always thought you were a sensible guy in general  @McLewis , but you have an incredibly strong tendency to jump to conclusions and assume the worst in people - particularly when race is involved, or assumed to be involved in the discussion. There are a lot of different cultures and viewpoints in this world, and you can’t always analyze situations accurately based on your personal experiences.


When I was visiting a refugee camp in Rosengård, Sweden a few years ago, the frustration among the majority of the immigrants wasn’t due to some type of oppression or lack of empathy from Swedish natives. It was frequently mentioned that they were scared and frustrated by the lack of action taken by the Swedish police. The worst parts of Rosengård have been called «no go zones» in international media, and that’s not an exaggeration.

The minority of people who turned it into something like a civilized warzone are armed with guns and molotov cocktails, and the situation has never quite elevated to the point where military force has been absolutely necessary. Violence, extreme vandalism, rape, theft and a few homicides have occurred there over the past decade or so, and no one seems to know how to approach the situation and get things back on the right track. It’s a politically sensitive area as well, so they opted to distance themselves instead of ensuring that the citizens (who are largely made up of immigrants) are safe.

There’s no convenient solution where the whites just need to get their shit together and see things from their point of view. A militant approach obviously had consequences, and their diplomatic attempts haven’t worked up until now.

It’s a lose/lose situation for everyone involved. And as Mystats has mentioned, the amount of radical right wingers in Europe is on the rise these days. It’s not a situation that can be conveniently solved, and racism or xenophobia isn’t always the driver behind every problem that occurs in this world.

I've been on this forum for almost 15 years. I've been on internet forms and social media for just as long. What I will tell you definitively is that "sensible" is subjective. You consider my stances to not be sensible because our views on what is sensible have diverged significantly as the years have passed. I have spent a lot of time over these years doing a lot of introspection. Some of that required professional help, some of it I experienced on my own just by living life. What you saw as "sensibility", I have determined was really just a fear of confrontation and a fear of the loss of the adulation gained by being seen as the foremost among sensible ones around here. The root to all of that was, paradoxically, lots of ego and a lack of self-esteem. Regaining the latter has also resulted in the honesty and frankness you now see.

Tl;DR - I went outside, touched grass, thought really hard about who I am as a person and what I discovered radicalized me to the point where I no longer care how I'm perceived around here. I am who I am.

As for what you said regarding the refugee camp, it echoes a truth I continue to run into: Poverty breeds crime. Solve the former and you eliminate the latter. Refugees, inherently, are poor. This makes them easy targets for criminals. Set them on a path to self-deterministic prosperity and the crime will lessen. Segregate them, antagonize them,  brutalize them, dehumanize them, or at absolute worst, ignore them.....and the opposite will occur. I don't know exactly what steps Sweden has taken to actually help these folks, but what's clear is that either they haven't moved fast enough or they have not allowed enough time to pass for the results of what they've done to take root. Either way, the crime is unavoidable initially. That's something that has to be accepted when taking in so many people. What matters is whether the efforts, in good faith, are lessening that crime while increasing opportunities for prosperity.

[Myesyats]

Sounds to me like Europe did the bare minimum to try and meet these folks where they were. To understand what they needed in order to be able to truly feel at home in these foreign countries. Instead, white Europeans looked down their noses at these people even as they "welcomed", as if the action itself is enough to erase the centuries of unrest caused by Europe in these regions. As if these folks should be eternally grateful just for the privilege to be in the presence of such benevolence. It's no wonder this shit has gone sideways.

Colonization is a motherfucker.

i just think people are tribalistic and will never get along with each other, colonisation is indeed a motherfucker, but a motherfucker we will collectively have to deal with as a collective species until we hopefully blow up and wipe out our corrupt and sickening species on one fateful day

let's not pretend colonisation is a purely "white or european" thing

When have Africans and/or Muslims colonized the whole of Europe in the way Europe colonized damn near the entire globe? I can think of only Muslim Spain and the Ottoman Empire perhaps, but neither ever penetrated deep enough into Europe to truly control all of it. Both were historically mere speed bumps when looking at the totality of human history.

They would have if they were in a position to do so. Muslims would've colonized the whole of Europe if they were not stopped or deterred.

African countries were never powerful enough relative to other nations. Historical timing is one thing, and some of the reasons why they never expanded outward was disease, geographical limitations, lack of long-distance travel vessels, domestic political turmoil (tribality instead of  consolidation which characterized European nations at the time)

You seem to assume that some peoples are inherently good while others are not. The reality is that slavery still exists today on a large scale, and not in white countries or propelled by white men.

[El Gunner]

A couple of you asked this question: What more could Europe have done for these immigrants?

The very framing of this question is problematic because, at least to me, it comes off as patronizing. It reeks of bitterness at perceived ungratefulness when that's very likely not the case.

My wife comes from a family of social workers. This reminds me a lot of stories her relatives would tell me of foster families taking in kids who have endured traumatic abuse and then acting indignant, bitter, and spiteful when the kids act out due to the trauma they experienced and/or have not come out of their shells in whatever arbitrary window of time the foster parents feel should've been enough. It tells me that they adopted these kids for the personal adulation of doing so. That they loved the idea of adopting these kids more than the actual reality of doing so.

So what more could the parents have done? These are just for starters:

- Showing empathy by fostering a safe and nurturing environment.
- Ensure their charges' mental health needs were being met so that healing from the trauma can begin.
- Letting them know that it's ok to come out of that bubble and that nothing bad will happen because of it.
- Displaying patience and understanding when the results of the above don't come as quickly they expected.

Now let's take the above and apply it to this immigration situation, especially considering how maternalistic Europe has always seen itself to the rest of the world. They're clearly the foster parents here.

There's a saying we have in the African American community - "Meet people where they are in their lives.". It means that it's not about you. It's about the people you're trying to help. It's about putting yourself in their shoes and moving accordingly. Europe have failed to do this and it's why they find themselves in the situation they're in. Had they done the work to truly understand who these people are, what their needs are, and the help they would need to put behind the trauma they are fleeing from, all of this would've gone much smoother. Instead, my sense is that political expediency, arrogance co-mingled with at least some genuine desire to help, prevailed instead.

This is my observation: Europe are that exasperated foster parent who is pissed off their adopted kids aren't acclimating to their new environments fast enough for their liking. They're pissed off that the adopted kids are acting out and instead of getting help in understanding why, they've resorted to repeatedly punishing the kids and separating them from their birth children (native-born Europeans), who see these folks as rivals for the resources within the house (attention, food, amenities, etc.). That has created an environment of division, animosity, distrust, disrespect, and ultimately ignorance. It's a Petrie dish for hatred.

The bullet points I outlined above would've gone a long way in preventing this, but all of that requires critical thought and genuine empathy. Maybe the latter was there right at the start, but impatience set in far too quickly for any progress to truly be made. All of this shit takes time and lots of hard work. That needed to be understood from the beginning. There will be ups and downs. There will be growing pains. It's like these leaders did not tell their people this shit and expected none of these problems to pop up. I find that astonishing.

there's only so much "coddling" you can do, where specifically will we start drawing the line?... let's not beat around the bush, both foster kids/orphans/refugees in this case come from a shitty environment and just giving them a better environment is already so much help. Yes i agree, you have to prepare better, and live and learn from past mistakes. Like i said, this is an ongoing process and you will never be able to cover all areas from the get-go.

When have Africans and/or Muslims colonized the whole of Europe in the way Europe colonized damn near the entire globe? I can think of only Muslim Spain and the Ottoman Empire perhaps, but neither ever penetrated deep enough into Europe to truly control all of it. Both were historically mere speed bumps when looking at the totality of human history.

all i see here is that human and firearm evolution coincided with European colonisation... Europeans did colonisation "the best" thus far, but there might be other races or advanced species (AI robots perhaps) that will do it even better in the future

there is a dark side to humanity, an undying lust for power and greed, we can't shy away from this

[Warrior]

Complete integration will occur for the second generation of immigrants it's unrealistic to expect it from people who just settled in a new country

The rightist switch in Europe is accelerated by insecurity, as it seems some refugees cannot behave under the laws and basic rules of decency. Such as stealing, raping, killing, mob hits... all of that is forbidden in every country in the world... most probably death penalty where they come from...

White guilt phenomenon is overrated outside of USA. We heard you in 2020 but most don't give a damn anymore that's what happen when you demonize people. It's certainly not about receiving gratitude, more like, western countries needed an influx of workers and taxpayers, instead we get what looks like the beginning of an invasion. Now let's make sure our quality of life is not flushed down the drain by some vindictive marxist policies (wokeness)

As for immigration and racism in general, you have liberal politicians "who understood" that have a more comprehensive approach, well the radicals (often acting as spokeperson for their community) take this for a weakness and try to impose their own culture here. Yes impose. As example there was a debate last summer in my province about to stop using fireworks because some muslims have trauma from the bombs. Also asking for bacon to be removed from menus everywhere because it's haram. It's not reasonable but they still ask, and go apeshit when their demands are rejected, call us islamophobic etc, what will they do when they make up for 25% of the population, as intended by liberal globalists ??

Denying insecurity + economic difficulties = left politics are not trusted anymore... except by naive whites and opportunistic radicals whose beliefs actually fit better in the fascist spectrum

[Thimmy]

I’ve always thought you were a sensible guy in general  @McLewis , but you have an incredibly strong tendency to jump to conclusions and assume the worst in people - particularly when race is involved, or assumed to be involved in the discussion. There are a lot of different cultures and viewpoints in this world, and you can’t always analyze situations accurately based on your personal experiences.


When I was visiting a refugee camp in Rosengård, Sweden a few years ago, the frustration among the majority of the immigrants wasn’t due to some type of oppression or lack of empathy from Swedish natives. It was frequently mentioned that they were scared and frustrated by the lack of action taken by the Swedish police. The worst parts of Rosengård have been called «no go zones» in international media, and that’s not an exaggeration.

The minority of people who turned it into something like a civilized warzone are armed with guns and molotov cocktails, and the situation has never quite elevated to the point where military force has been absolutely necessary. Violence, extreme vandalism, rape, theft and a few homicides have occurred there over the past decade or so, and no one seems to know how to approach the situation and get things back on the right track. It’s a politically sensitive area as well, so they opted to distance themselves instead of ensuring that the citizens (who are largely made up of immigrants) are safe.

There’s no convenient solution where the whites just need to get their shit together and see things from their point of view. A militant approach obviously had consequences, and their diplomatic attempts haven’t worked up until now.

It’s a lose/lose situation for everyone involved. And as Mystats has mentioned, the amount of radical right wingers in Europe is on the rise these days. It’s not a situation that can be conveniently solved, and racism or xenophobia isn’t always the driver behind every problem that occurs in this world.

I've been on this forum for almost 15 years. I've been on internet forms and social media for just as long. What I will tell you definitively is that "sensible" is subjective. You consider my stances to not be sensible because our views on what is sensible have diverged significantly as the years have passed. I have spent a lot of time over these years doing a lot of introspection. Some of that required professional help, some of it I experienced on my own just by living life. What you saw as "sensibility", I have determined was really just a fear of confrontation and a fear of the loss of the adulation gained by being seen as the foremost among sensible ones around here. The root to all of that was, paradoxically, lots of ego and a lack of self-esteem. Regaining the latter has also resulted in the honesty and frankness you now see.

Tl;DR - I went outside, touched grass, thought really hard about who I am as a person and what I discovered radicalized me to the point where I no longer care how I'm perceived around here. I am who I am.

As for what you said regarding the refugee camp, it echoes a truth I continue to run into: Poverty breeds crime. Solve the former and you eliminate the latter. Refugees, inherently, are poor. This makes them easy targets for criminals. Set them on a path to self-deterministic prosperity and the crime will lessen. Segregate them, antagonize them,  brutalize them, dehumanize them, or at absolute worst, ignore them.....and the opposite will occur. I don't know exactly what steps Sweden has taken to actually help these folks, but what's clear is that either they haven't moved fast enough or they have not allowed enough time to pass for the results of what they've done to take root. Either way, the crime is unavoidable initially. That's something that has to be accepted when taking in so many people. What matters is whether the efforts, in good faith, are lessening that crime while increasing opportunities for prosperity.

Well, this is my point exactly. I always thought you were sensible because you were reflective, and you articulated your thoughts very well. If you were avoiding confrontation, that's a part of you that I never noticed. I think you're referring to something else than what I'm thinking of. And you frequently did so when we had a discussions in this thread previously, as well. Like you say, sensibility is subjective, and that's not what I was referring to.

You have a very strong tendency to assume that you know what people are thinking; what conclusions they have in mind, what their thought processes are, what their agenda is. You seem to view situations from both sides, which I think is a good thing, but you tend to conclude that there's always a victim. I'll be blunt and say that while I'm sure it never hurts to take a pessimistic stance and assume the worst is around the corner, I imagine it must be quite tiring to always have that mindset.

Scandinavians are known for being very blunt, and I'm probably no exception to that generalization. But what I've learnt through my fairly privileged life of having been able to travel on holiday abroad 3+ times a year ever since I was in kindergarten, is that while I've sometimes thought that I could seamlessly apply my interpretation of what makes logical sense to any situation, in any country and culture, it's often lead me to the wrong conclusions. And then I've just frustrated myself by thinking that there's no alternative to my "deductive reasoning", but clearly there is no end to how different people may view the exact same situations in this world.

Even in Europe, there are completely different cultures that are only a few hours away by plane. My first time in Latvia gave me about as much of a culture shock as I had the first time I traveled to South Korea. Hell, I'm used to it by now, but I still seem to be a bit surprised every time I travel to most parts of Eastern Europe + Italy and natives always tell me to avoid walking into certain areas because of shady people and criminals that prey on tourists, especially at night. I don't have to deal with that stuff here, nor is that something you have to worry about in South Korea - or even in Estonia, which borders to Latvia. I've talked to a lot of foreigners here that are shocked by the observation that women walk alone outside at night.

I did mention in a different discussion about race a while back, that some people in countries like, Romania have a shockingly ignorant view on race. And while it's often tempting to assume that their intentions veer towards racism, I've learnt that they simply don't know any better, even if they're sometimes much more interested in multi-culturalism than I am. If you can apply your ability to see things from multiple points of views to an understanding that there are vastly different cultures and social norms out in the world, I think you'd have a more nuanced view on things.

It's no secret that you're very left-leaning politically, but when it comes to race discussions, you're very narrow-minded despite how reflected you are. That's what I was getting at when I pointed out that you always struck me as quite sensible. Many of our posters tend to jump to the most convenient, easy to recognize conclusions about things (football especially) without taking any context or variables into consideration, and from what I can tell, you don't seem to be that way when you're not talking about race.

[El Gunner]

what i've noticed is that a lot of African-Americans buy into an intense victim mentality when it comes to race... many of them i come across online wholeheartedly preach the idea that "black people can't be racist"

i don't know if McLewis believes this too, but when i hear those types of sentiments, that to me comes across as a person that you can't reason with, and probably would want to avoid in your day to day interactions

[McLewis]

Sounds to me like Europe did the bare minimum to try and meet these folks where they were. To understand what they needed in order to be able to truly feel at home in these foreign countries. Instead, white Europeans looked down their noses at these people even as they "welcomed", as if the action itself is enough to erase the centuries of unrest caused by Europe in these regions. As if these folks should be eternally grateful just for the privilege to be in the presence of such benevolence. It's no wonder this shit has gone sideways.

Colonization is a motherfucker.

i just think people are tribalistic and will never get along with each other, colonisation is indeed a motherfucker, but a motherfucker we will collectively have to deal with as a collective species until we hopefully blow up and wipe out our corrupt and sickening species on one fateful day

let's not pretend colonisation is a purely "white or european" thing

When have Africans and/or Muslims colonized the whole of Europe in the way Europe colonized damn near the entire globe? I can think of only Muslim Spain and the Ottoman Empire perhaps, but neither ever penetrated deep enough into Europe to truly control all of it. Both were historically mere speed bumps when looking at the totality of human history.

ns. Historical timing is one thing, and some of the reasons why they never expanded outward was disease, geographical limitations, lack of long-distance travel vessels, domestic political turmoil (tribality instead of  consolidation which characterized European nations at the time)

You seem to assume that some peoples are inherently good while others are not. The reality is that slavery still exists today on a large scale, and not in white countries or propelled by white men.

Slavery exists in my country today. It has merely taken a different form: The mass prison industrial complex, created at the outset of Nixon's War on Drugs and amplified with Clinton's crime bill, written by then senator Joe Biden.

Contrary to popular belief, we in the African American community are absolutely aware of what's happening on the African continent. The reality is we can't help others if we can't even help ourselves. We face an ideological movement hellbent on returning us to the pre-Civil Rights era. How can we possibly help anyone outside of this country when we're staring down the face of something like that?

[El Gunner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Uxvp1ctfA

[Myesyats]

Slavery exists in my country today. It has merely taken a different form: The mass prison industrial complex, created at the outset of Nixon's War on Drugs and amplified with Clinton's crime bill, written by then senator Joe Biden.

Contrary to popular belief, we in the African American community are absolutely aware of what's happening on the African continent. The reality is we can't help others if we can't even help ourselves. We face an ideological movement hellbent on returning us to the pre-Civil Rights era.  How can we possibly help anyone outside of this country when we're staring down the face of something like that?

Im not talking about Africa exclusively tbh. Slavery existed, still exists everywhere regardless of race. I think Korea had the longest unbroken chain of slavery of anyone in history, but often in discourse it gets framed as if its a white people invention and every injustice in the world stems from it.

Today in America, Its not slavery if you can opt out. Even if there are inequalities or disparities, you cannot define it as slavery because that is not what slavery is by definition.

I've seen a range of statistics recently which grapples with some of the issues that you bring up. The argument is made is that before 1970, there existed a vast network of public and private psychiatric institutions and detention facilities where hundreds of thousands of drug addicts and common criminals were held, who were not counted by the government as part of the overall prison population.

So its not like the prison system suddenly started locking up people from out of nowhere, they were just shifted from mental facilities to jails.

[Myesyats]

Citation: An Institutionalization Effect: The Impact of Mental Hospitalization and Imprisonment on Homicide in the United States, 1934–2001 (Harcourt 2011)

[Myesyats]

I've been grappling with issue of the US being a police state swell. Upon further research, I discovered that the US Police is, compared to other developed nations, actually both underfunded and understaffed.

So this is the plot for the number of police officers per 100k inhabitants and also per homicide.

What the statistics show is that in the US, there are 43 officers per homicide whereas in other developed nations there are up to 500 officers per homicide.  This came as an absolute shock to me.




Citation: THE INJUSTICE OF UNDER-POLICING IN AMERICA (Lewis and Usmani 2022)

[Myesyats]

I wanted to post another comment re the under-policing study. The authors posit that, in fact, increased police violence might stem from the fact that there are actually not enough police in the USA. This puts the "Defund the Police" movement in serious doubt. They assert that in societies where police are short in resources and staff to the point where they can't keep up with the rate of violence, police officers are more likely to behave brutally and act out. Makes sense to be honest. It is an interesting debate to have.

[McLewis]

Your previous post.

My previous post

You have a very strong tendency to assume that you know what people are thinking; what conclusions they have in mind, what their thought processes are, what their agenda is. You seem to view situations from both sides, which I think is a good thing, but you tend to conclude that there's always a victim. I'll be blunt and say that while I'm sure it never hurts to take a pessimistic stance and assume the worst is around the corner, I imagine it must be quite tiring to always have that mindset.

Scandinavians are known for being very blunt, and I'm probably no exception to that generalization. But what I've learnt through my fairly privileged life of having been able to travel on holiday abroad 3+ times a year ever since I was in kindergarten, is that while I've sometimes thought that I could seamlessly apply my interpretation of what makes logical sense to any situation, in any country and culture, it's often lead me to the wrong conclusions. And then I've just frustrated myself by thinking that there's no alternative to my "deductive reasoning", but clearly there is no end to how different people may view the exact same situations in this world.

Even in Europe, there are completely different cultures that are only a few hours away by plane. My first time in Latvia gave me about as much of a culture shock as I had the first time I traveled to South Korea. Hell, I'm used to it by now, but I still seem to be a bit surprised every time I travel to most parts of Eastern Europe + Italy and natives always tell me to avoid walking into certain areas because of shady people and criminals that prey on tourists, especially at night. I don't have to deal with that stuff here, nor is that something you have to worry about in South Korea - or even in Estonia, which borders to Latvia. I've talked to a lot of foreigners here that are shocked by the observation that women walk alone outside at night.

I did mention in a different discussion about race a while back, that some people in countries like, Romania have a shockingly ignorant view on race. And while it's often tempting to assume that their intentions veer towards racism, I've learnt that they simply don't know any better, even if they're sometimes much more interested in multi-culturalism than I am. If you can apply your ability to see things from multiple points of views to an understanding that there are vastly different cultures and social norms out in the world, I think you'd have a more nuanced view on things.

It's no secret that you're very left-leaning politically, but when it comes to race discussions, you're very narrow-minded despite how reflected you are. That's what I was getting at when I pointed out that you always struck me as quite sensible. Many of our posters tend to jump to the most convenient, easy to recognize conclusions about things (football especially) without taking any context or variables into consideration, and from what I can tell, you don't seem to be that way when you're not talking about race.

Where you see assumptions, I see as observations. What you consider pessimism, I consider cynicism. We see the same shape through different lenses, shaped by our life experiences.

Regarding your example on Romania and the ignorance of race. I understand this completely. Completely homogenous societies will absolutely display emotions ranging from fear to hostility to curiosity to amazement. I know the difference between someone staring at me because they've never seen a Black person and a person believes I am inferior to them because I'm a Black person. One is racist, xenophobic and prejudiced. The other is not. Both are severely underexposed to cultural diversity.

I'll tell you what's tiring though: Seeing people who look like me continually disenfranchised by systems that are defended as colorblind by those who benefit from that disenfranchisement, both passively and actively, yet can't reconcile the fact that this system functions very clearly on 2 very different tiers based on skin color, ethnicity, religion and even culture. Seeing this shit constantly isn't anywhere near as exhausting as being told repeatedly that it doesn't exist or that I just don't understand by those who have no clue what this feels like and never will.

My differing opinions on race issues do not mean I cannot see the context behind them. Believe me, I see it. Then I look beyond it. That's the problem with folks who have no idea what it is to be racially disenfranchised. All of this is academic to them. It's just another subject to talk about. That's how it is when they have no skin in the game. If/when it actually happens to them, they magically and near instantly gain the same insight I have right now. They'll never understand where I'm truly coming from until they experience it first hand....and many never will, in both respects.

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