Re: The Racism Thread

[Thimmy]

Movies and TV shows ideally shouldn't be made with a goal of satisfying an audience group of any particular race or creed, in my opinion.

Movies and TV shows are created to make money. This whole industry is a business. They make their money by catering their content either to specific audiences or everyone. Every project varies in size based on budget, scope and the vision of the creators. Do you think Nip/Tuck was created for everyone? How about the Phantom Thread? Neither of these products were created to cater to everyone. More often than not, creators and the studios that fund them know the audience they want to engage. So I think it's bizarre to think this won't or shouldn't apply to products featuring different races, ethnicities and cultures.

I love Nip/Tuck. I didn't think I'd have to clarify this part, but catering to a specific audience, like an age range, or fans of a particular genre of movies, is not the same as going out of one's way to cater to a minority with a certain political or religious inclination, especially when several of these films have under-performed in terms of viewership and sales. Yes, it's a business, which is why I'm pointing out that it does not make financial sense to make movies this way, yet it's an ongoing trend in the American film industry in particular. I interpret that as these writers and directors prioritizing their political agenda above all else, but I get the impression that we don't agree on that part, so let's move on  

You already mentioned Disney movies, like Milo and Stitch where they succeeded in doing the same thing without having to jump on the more recent, very obvious trend of political re-boots, which I do insist have a political agenda behind them.

There is nothing inherently political about movie studios, run primarily by white people, wanting to attract larger numbers of customers, outside of their already invested white ones, by creating product that appeals to those larger, non-white audiences. That's not politics. That's marketing. It's just business. These executives have found a way to literally commercialize my daughter's need to be represented. As a far left American progressive, I absolutely abhor that level of exploitative capitalism. As a father that just wants to see his daughter happy and mentally healthy, things get a whole lot simpler. If she's happy, I'm happy.

Again, it's great that your daughter loved the movie, but from what I can tell (and I stand corrected, I haven't seen the balances for all movies of this type), the general box office sales for movies and particularly re-boots with race and gender swaps have either barely brought in more money than what was spent on producing them, or they've lead to bankruptcy. That's clearly not an indication of any level of success, unless success is measured by the enjoyment of the few people who did watch and appreciate the content.

Movies like, She-Hulk may seen completely organic and even resonate with certain people, but the fact that they're going out of their way to appeal to a relatively niche audience is going to be reflected in sales.

See, She-Hulk wasn't created for any race specifically. It's very much a show created for representation of women in general. I think the better example you're looking for here is Ms. Marvel, which was created to represent Muslim, South Asian cultures. That also wasn't created singularly for me, a Black person nor you, a white person. And that's ok. That I enjoyed it anyway is a bonus for Disney. That you probably didn't is not a net loss for them.

I don't think it's very likely that someone makes the decision to change something as fundamental as the race or gender of a main character of an established franchise without doing so for a specific reason. We may disagree on what that reason is, but it seems clear to me that it's more divisive than "appealing to a larger, non-white audience".

I think increased diversity in Hollywood should've happened a long time ago, but this isn't the way to go about doing so, in my opinion. The She-Hulks and Ghostbusters of modern Hollywood did absolutely nothing for gender equality, unless your idea of gender equality is sexual harassment of men and redundant reminders that men are bad and inferior to women. I haven't watched Ms. Marvel and I'm not familiar with the character, so I can't comment on that one. Sounds just fine based on your description of it, unless they drastically changed the characters and the script in order to accommodate those things. Leave the old stuff alone and make something new instead. It can't be that hard, lol.

- because those millions of girls you refer to are still a minority among the target group, and that matters when you decide to re-work an established title that people already have an impression of.

Why, in your opinion, does this matter?

It matters to me because I assume they could've achieved the same result, if not a better one by simply creating something new. I do not care about The Little Mermaid, personally, but I do care about this trend of re-working old material to suit political agendas because while I don't doubt that someone enjoys it, the domino effect is that it pisses of a lot of people who are sympathetically attached to these, older titles and characters and care about the consistency that gives immersive value to the material.

Yes, they can go back and watch the old work of the same material, but why would they?

Why would they, you ask? Because that gives them exactly what they're looking for. It gives them the opportunity to see the version of this story that speaks to them in a way this newest version doesn't. And if that's not enough, they are entirely free to watch something else entirely. There is nothing wrong with that.

....

To me, that just seems like a very progressively American view on things.

Specifically, it's a Black American progressive view. You'll find that there are a number of progressive, white Americans who absolutely agree with you. The progressive ideology, at least here in the States, is not a monolith. It's a very big tent.

The extreme race-centrism of Americans, and to a lesser extent, Brits drives me mad sometimes.

Have you ever truly attempted to explore why we talk about race so much? Why the LGBTQ+ community are so outspoken about the issues impacting them? There are reasons behind all of this and it's not just because we have nothing else to talk about. Honestly, you need to talk to these communities, spend time with them, put your own biases aside, and try to understand where they're coming from. It will give you perspective.

I have talked to a lot of Brits and Americans, I'm a quarter English myself, which is why I'm pointing out this cultural difference. I don't think it has much to do with "where they're coming from", it's just part of the culture that people in English-speaking countries primarily, seem to have become accustomed to, and it's the same for white, black, hispanic and asian people - they're used to bringing race into every context, and occasionally I find that a bit annoying. That said, I realize that it's a cultural difference and I'm not saying that things are better here, it's just different and I prefer it when people are referred to as people rather than "insert race". The term "black" isn't used in Norwegian, and the first time I heard "white" was around 10 years ago (made it's way over through social media), so it's never been normal for me to refer to people by their race unless I speak in English.

There are race issues in varying degrees around the world, and it certainly doesn't get any better by making people become hyper focused on everything related to race.

I mean this with all due respect, but all of this is an annoyance to you because it doesn't affect you. You have absolutely no investment in any of this because you don't appear to have any personal ties to race and gender issues. Perhaps you do and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my impression based on your comments. That's not intended to insult you. That's just an observation.

That's a fair observation. I haven't experienced racism in the traditional sense, but I have witnessed different types of it, mostly while traveling abroad, which I've done a lot of in my life. I've talked to immigrants from various countries in both Norway and Sweden, and I think I've been exposed to more cultures and religions than most people have. That doesn't make me an expert on anything, but it's certainly shaped my view on things.

I mean, don't you think I'd love to live in a world where my race doesn't matter? Trust me, that's the dream for literally every Black American. There are parts of the US state I live in right now that I can't go to because of my race. If I go to these places, I'm literally not safe. My kids are not safe, my wife is not safe. The people threatening my safety in those places are not color blind so why should I be? We talk about race so much because so much of our lot in life depends on how we navigate spaces controlled by people who do not like us because of something we have zero control over. We would love for it to be different, but this is our reality. We don't have the luxury of just being color blind because that requires everyone else to buy into that. Racists will not do that.

Yeah, I understand how that shapes your view on race and life in general. The most blatant, uninhibited racism in the developed world that I've ever witnessed was actually during my trip to Chicago over a decade ago, where a guy in front of me in the line to the ticket booth in the cinema started shouting racist slurs towards the woman in the booth for supposedly being slow/lazy. That incident's been burnt into my memory. He was eventually escorted out by a group of people, but I vividly remember the indifferent expression on the woman's face while he was shouting at her. Either she was tough as nails, or she had become so accustomed to that type of treatment that she's desensitized to it. The line continued as if nothing had happened, it was pretty surreal to me. Most of the racism that I've witnessed while on vacation around Europe has been far more subtle.

Ultimately, I don't blame you for your naivety on this subject. Your country is extremely homogenous so it's to be expected. Unless you somehow have ended up in a very Black part of America for a sustained amount of time, very few of you have been exposed to racial situations and experiences that would get you thinking the way that I think and I suspect if I grew up completely surrounded only by people who looked like me, I'd probably be as color blind as well.

I actually live in one of the more diverse cities in this country. I see more Asians on a daily basis than I see white people. Recently, I've noticed an increase in Ukrainians and Eastern Europeans, but the majority of immigrants in the area where I live are from India, Pakistan, Syria and Somalia.

Despite being an ultra progressive city, rainbow flags have been torn down and vandalized around middle schools here lately, and it's all over the local news. It's a city where there's a designated pride street that's painted in rainbow colors and surrounded by rainbow flags, the term "hen" is sometimes used instead of he and she, and pride month seems to last for 2-3 months every year. People here are generally very accepting towards minority groups, but it does get to a point where celebrating those groups becomes invasive and borderline obnoxious towards the people who aren't part of those groups. I suspect that doesn't make any sense to you (McLewis), and I don't make any fuzz about it myself, but you can't help but notice how over-saturated it is here, and kids aren't as inclined to be patient and polite about it as adults are. Personally, I think schools should be as neutral as possible, and I genuinely hope we don't start teaching critical race theory here, like they do in the US. It just amplifies whatever issues already exist.

I'm all for accepting and even supporting minority rights to some extent, but everyone involved needs to show a certain level of humility in order to coexist in an environment where minority groups of any kind is working towards equal representation.

While this is a thread to discuss racism, all I'm going to say is again you need to try to put yourself in the shoes of the minority communities. If you can't do that, talk to them. Engage with them. Try to understand them beyond just this vague "very accepting toward minority groups" mentality that seems to be rather pervasive even in seemingly progressive spaces. For those of us who are members of minority groups, it's all pretty simple. Many of us just want to go about our lives in peace, have the same experiences as everyone else, go where we want,  
and of course love who we want. Religious dogma coupled with the racist, conservative ideology prevents this and in some places, has put our communities in very real political and/or physical danger. The celebrations you seem to think are so over-the-top are a beacon to parts of these communities who can't celebrate in these ways for fear of oppression and even death. It's a celebration of solidarity. True allies of these communities will never see any of this as "borderline obnoxious". The job of an ally is to support, uphold and defend the right of these communities to exist and thrive. If any of this bothers you, you're not actually "accepting" them. You're merely tolerating their presence and that's not allyship.

I can't agree with you on this last part. I know my city well. I'm all for gay and trans rights, but someone will eventually get sick and tired of these marks of pride and representation when it's over-saturated to the point where it seems to take precedence over things that are objectively more important. I really don't know why pride flags and symbols need to be plastered all around schools. It's already so incredibly over-represented everywhere, that it's no surprise to me that some people will eventually get tired and/or annoyed by it all.

As I'm writing this, I see an article suggesting the need for a removal of pride flags in local schools and kindergartens. This is again, off-topic, but as much as I support gay and trans rights, I think it goes too far when people start to radically influence kids with these things, so I'm all for removing pride representation in schools. We already have a ton of symbolism throughout the city center. It gives me religious vibes when progressives and conservatives insist on influencing people with their ideologies from an early age, and I really think schools and kindergartens should be neutral to these things. Let them come to their own conclusions without having adults tell them what they should or shouldn't be. I'm aware that gay and trans people face certain struggles in life that I don't, but that's certainly not the case where I currently reside. As for the 2-3 month long pride month here, that was just one example of how over-saturated the representation is here, but I am admittedly starting to turn into a grumpy old man, and my gay neighbors are loud as hell when they throw parties. More than 2 months, man

[McLewis]

I suppose all I have left to say in this particular conversation is this: Telling these folks to tone down the celebration of being able to live their authentic selves (no matter how over-the-top it's perceived) is a form of exerting control over them, something that gave rise to the need for the celebrations to begin with. The message to them is: You can celebrate who you are, but only on our terms. Only in ways that make us feel comfortable. That's effectively de-centering them from their own celebration. It defeats the whole purpose.

I know this particular topic is for the LGBTQ+ community, but everything you're talking about has a distinct, racial parallel to race not just here in America, but all over Europe. Relating to Black culture, white people believe we're too loud, we're too boisterous, we're too flamboyant, too uncultured, too energetic. Just too everything. They want us to celebrate our heritage, but on their terms, in their way, in ways that make them feel comfortable. It's why, in order to succeed in America, you have to do things the way that is acceptable to white Americans (think going to college, having a good credit score, investing in stocks, etc.). If you don't do that, the American Dream is virtually unobtainable unless you have a special skillset such as sports or science.

Being an ally is accepting that you are no longer in control of where things are going. It means accepting that you need to listen and follow rather than try to control and lead. That's a hard thing for people who are accustomed to their culture being so dominant to acclimate to, even if they want to.

[Thimmy]

I think you've misinterpreted what I've been saying. Or maybe I'm just bad with articulation through text. I'm not saying that they should tone things down. ah let's just move on lol

[McLewis]

️ Gianni Infantino (FIFA President): "I have asked Vinícius Júnior to lead this group of players who will come up with stricter punishments against racism, which will be implemented by all football authorities."

— Madrid Xtra (@MadridXtra) June 15, 2023

So this is a problem.

Black people have been forever asked to solve a problem they didn't create and it really needs to stop.

Infantino doesn't care about Vinicius or any other Black player being racially abused. As with all businessmen, he cares only about FIFA's profit margins and how this performative stunt will help increase them.

[El Gunner]

in your opinion, McLewis, how should this problem be solved?

[McLewis]

There are smarter people than me out there with a more educated answer to that question, but for me it starts with making the game more diverse off the pitch. More coaches of color, more sporting directors of color, more general managers of color, more directors of color, more presidents and owners of color, more league executives of color. More journalists and content creators of color. More executive positions at companies that are major sponsors of the sport need more people of color.

Diversify the entire system and racism loses its foothold.

Too many of the executive spaces in and around these leagues and clubs are still very white and because of that, there's no real impetus to solve this problem and what little there is, just isn't effective. It goes back to what I discussed with Thimmy. White folks largely have no real skin in the game when it comes to addressing racism because it doesn't affect them. Hard to care about a problem that doesn't impact them, even if they were the ones that created it in the first place. That should make them want to solve it, but far too many just don't think it's on them and those, like Infantino, would rather shuffle it onto those who actually care...who just so happen to be the victims of that said problem. It's wild.

[Myesyats]

in your opinion, McLewis, how should this problem be solved?

We should be putting white people on cruise ships and randomly sinking them

[McLewis]

Paris Saint-Germain soccer coach Christophe Galtier was reportedly taken into police custody on Friday over allegations of racial discrimination. https://t.co/E0o0JUtsTw

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) June 30, 2023

Apparently a former executive at Nice leaked an email from Galtier, who was complaining about the club having too many Black and Muslim players.

[BarrileteCosmico]

That's nuts and he deserves to lose his job and career. But is being racist really something that gets you sent to jail in France or is there something else going on?

[McLewis]

Maybe Sports can weigh in on that, but my guess is France either don't have freedom of speech, which would mean you can be arrested for simple speech, or they have super strong hate crime laws that extend to speech.

[Thimmy]

Seeing as he was in a position of management/leadership, I assume the charges are based on discriminatory behaviour, and not just him uttering something racist or prejudist behind closed doors. Prison time still seems awfully harsh, though. I imagine there must be something more behind it. Either way, what a scumbag.

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