The Racism Thread

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Post by Warrior Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:25 pm

The incident that spurred the lawsuit began on the morning of June 2, 2020, when he received an email from who he said was a non-Black student asking that Klein grade Black students with greater "leniency" in the wake of Floyd's death and the civil unrest that followed.

He was suspended for his cynical answer to the email

Seems like a big misunderstanding in summer 2020 which was very sensitive times. We know how this story will end. He'll get compensated and suddenly his life will improve a lot.

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Post by VivaStPauli Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:00 am

Yeah that headline is click bait, even the actual newsweek (not a great source) article says it was his response that got him in trouble, not the denial of the request.
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 04, 2021 3:59 pm

Let's discuss Critical Race Theory here.

It's been heavily politicized, but it's (at base level) a racial theory so I want to deep dive the stances on it.

As this is an American legal theory, I want to discuss it from that perspective.

Now I am not a law student, but from what I understand of CRT here is what it's not:

- Teaching white kids that just being white means they're racist.
- Teaching white kids anything contradictory to what conservatives have already approved being taught in school.
- Teaching white kids about the atrocities committed against black, yellow and brown people by white people throughout American history.
- Teaching white kids about the fallibility and the shortcomings of white people they have been conditioned by their parents to revere.
- Nikole Hannah-Jones' 1619 Project
- Teaching white kids racial sensitivity in the classroom.

There's probably more, but that's what comes to mind right now.

Now the very presence of CRT in political discussion is a result of unified conservative messaging. It was always going to be a wedge issue, particularly in diverse suburban communities like what we've seen in Virginia.

I think what needs to be made clear is that CRT is absolutely NOT in the curriculum of any school district anywhere in this country. The creators of it DO NOT WANT it taught at any level below where it's currently taught. To be taught actual CRT, one needs to seek out the places where it is actively being taught and that is in academic legal circles at the graduate level. These are very niche groups.

American students of all colors should be learning about people like Sally Hemmings. They should learning about the Tulsa Race Massacre. They should be learning about how Central Park came to be in NYC. They should be learning that Christopher Columbus enslaved natives in the lands he discovered and brought about their eventual extinction....all while never setting foot on mainland North America. They should be taught that the pilgrims took Native American land...even after the NAs helped them survive the brutal winters on the East Coast. They should learn that East Asian immigrants were brought here and exploited for their labor on building the first railroads. They should learn that South Asian immigrants like the Sikh are still targeting to this day by white people who mistake them for terrorists, sometimes killing them.

And not even any of that is CRT. Because CRT is studying the system behind why our history is awash with revisioned whitewashing and how the system that grew out of that continues to impact communities of color unevenly compared to white communities. That's literally it.
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Post by McLewis Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:09 pm

Really good analogy of why the conservative effort to ban CRT is so goddamn stupid:

Think of it this way...

Imagine that I am in your state legislature, and I propose a bill to 'ban cancer'. I go to every media source I can find and argue that cancer is awful, and it should be completely outlawed.

Maybe your first response is: 'Well...that isn't going to accomplish anything and it is absurd for Othelloinc to claim that it would.'

...but then you read the bill I proposed, and you find that while it does have absurdly-meaningless language banning cancer, it also has meaningful language that bans...

Testing for cancer

Treating cancer

Talking about cancer

Diagnosing patients with cancer, and...

Doctors telling their patients they have cancer

..but I never acknowledge that. I simply call it the 'Ban Cancer Bill' and attack you for being radically pro-cancer.

Do you want my bill to pass or not?

Full link to to the post.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:39 am

Personally think the emphasis should be on teaching civics, which is long dead in the US, and as part of that discussion you can bring up things like structural barriers to entry into the process that are used to discriminate . But CRT proper is intentionally political and divisive and not meant for high school level discussions.
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Post by Myesyats Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:06 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Personally think the emphasis should be on teaching civics, which is long dead in the US, and as part of that discussion you can bring up things like structural barriers to entry into the process that are used to discriminate . But CRT proper is intentionally political and divisive and not meant for high school level discussions.

Thumbs up


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Post by McLewis Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:38 pm

CRT has been around for 30 years or so yet it only became a problem for folks a year or 2 ago? Why is it divisive now when no one outside of academia knew about it until the right decided it would make the perfect wedge issue?

I don't consider it a political divider. I consider it a political weapon. And it was never intended to be that based on the words of those who originated the theory. Republicans weaponized CRT and Democrats, for some really odd reason, are struggling to counter that so they blame progressives who are doing what they've always done: push for cultural equality and equity, which means teaching ALL of our history, regardless of how it plays politically.

I'm in favor of a return to civics as well as long as ethics also gets taught alongside it. Ethics gets intertwined with morality in this country and they are completely different concepts.
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Post by McLewis Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:56 pm

So regarding what VA's Dept of Education is teaching:

https://www.virginiaisforlearners.virginia.gov/what-we-are-reading/

More specifically, it appears this book is of interest:

Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education

Looking at the material in that book, I don't think it's being taught directly to K-12 students. It appears to be aimed at College-level students who will be entering the workforce as teachers.

I think the charge of "VA is teaching CRT to kids" doesn't hold up at this very moment. In the future? Maybe, but unlikely given the GOP have retaken the Governor's mansion and the House of Delegates, meaning they will likely roll this stuff back.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:06 pm

saved this to my watch list a while back and thought it was the perfect time to watch it and share it here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drqhlcJCqw8

like McLewis and BC said it's basically just being used a Republican political tactic, and seemingly out of nowhere for no reason
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Post by McLewis Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:39 pm

I'll give that a watch as well.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:20 pm

@McLewis wrote:CRT has been around for 30 years or so yet it only became a problem for folks a year or 2 ago? Why is it divisive now when no one outside of academia knew about it until the right decided it would make the perfect wedge issue?

I don't consider it a political divider. I consider it a political weapon. And it was never intended to be that based on the words of those who originated the theory. Republicans weaponized CRT and Democrats, for some really odd reason, are struggling to counter that so they blame progressives who are doing what they've always done: push for cultural equality and equity, which means teaching ALL of our history, regardless of how it plays politically.

I'm in favor of a return to civics as well as long as ethics also gets taught alongside it. Ethics gets intertwined with morality in this country and they are completely different concepts.

Agreed with this all. And I think it was divisive before, just amongst a very small group in academia, so of no consequence until it was turned into a weapon.

@McLewis wrote:So regarding what VA's Dept of Education is teaching:

https://www.virginiaisforlearners.virginia.gov/what-we-are-reading/

More specifically, it appears this book is of interest:

Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education

Looking at the material in that book, I don't think it's being taught directly to K-12 students. It appears to be aimed at College-level students who will be entering the workforce as teachers.

I think the charge of "VA is teaching CRT to kids" doesn't hold up at this very moment. In the future? Maybe, but unlikely given the GOP have retaken the Governor's mansion and the House of Delegates, meaning they will likely roll this stuff back.


I don't think just looking at the material is enough to confirm it's not being taught. It could be, but there's nothing there that disproves it. All we know for sure that their department of education (which is mostly responsible for the K-12 system) does endorse these books, some of which do cover CRT.

And if you're a parent who believes that CRT "teaches kids to hate being white and hate america" (a wrong claim, but somewhat popular nevertheless), then I can see why they would be freaked out looking at that.
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Post by Myesyats Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:03 pm

@futbol_bill has some explaining to do

The Racism Thread - Page 14 00120648602272____2__600x600

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Post by McLewis Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:04 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@McLewis wrote:CRT has been around for 30 years or so yet it only became a problem for folks a year or 2 ago? Why is it divisive now when no one outside of academia knew about it until the right decided it would make the perfect wedge issue?

I don't consider it a political divider. I consider it a political weapon. And it was never intended to be that based on the words of those who originated the theory. Republicans weaponized CRT and Democrats, for some really odd reason, are struggling to counter that so they blame progressives who are doing what they've always done: push for cultural equality and equity, which means teaching ALL of our history, regardless of how it plays politically.

I'm in favor of a return to civics as well as long as ethics also gets taught alongside it. Ethics gets intertwined with morality in this country and they are completely different concepts.

Agreed with this all. And I think it was divisive before, just amongst a very small group in academia, so of no consequence until it was turned into a weapon.

@McLewis wrote:So regarding what VA's Dept of Education is teaching:

https://www.virginiaisforlearners.virginia.gov/what-we-are-reading/

More specifically, it appears this book is of interest:

Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education

Looking at the material in that book, I don't think it's being taught directly to K-12 students. It appears to be aimed at College-level students who will be entering the workforce as teachers.

I think the charge of "VA is teaching CRT to kids" doesn't hold up at this very moment. In the future? Maybe, but unlikely given the GOP have retaken the Governor's mansion and the House of Delegates, meaning they will likely roll this stuff back.


I don't think just looking at the material is enough to confirm it's not being taught. It could be, but there's nothing there that disproves it. All we know for sure that their department of education (which is mostly responsible for the K-12 system) does endorse these books, some of which do cover CRT.

And if you're a parent who believes that CRT "teaches kids to hate being white and hate america" (a wrong claim, but somewhat popular nevertheless), then I can see why they would be freaked out looking at that.


And given that parent's beliefs were shaped by right-wing media, they are naturally going to be freaked out. Because RW media want them in a state of perpetual freaked-outness about the real history of this country being taught. It's ironic because the RW are very much the "let's wait for the facts" side of this country yet ignore this when there's an opportunity to own the libs.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:49 am

The bigger issue for me is not the material being taught...  it's the fact that the PTA is being marginalized when it absolutely shouldn't be.  Parents and teachers BOTH need to have input into what the children are being taught.  That's how it's always been.  

Parents cannot and should not be sidelined.  It's unacceptable.  That's the central issue.

So, if the majority of parents in a school district are against a non-core book/material being part of the curriculum, so be it.  It's their right.  It's their kids.  If people don't like the schools in a particular district, move to a place where you're more comfortable with the curriculum.

This isn't a country where the government can mandate what's being taught.  It has to be agreed upon.

I feel like the minority groups in this country want to dictate to the majority. Fuck that. The idea is that the majority gets to make the decisions while there are very specific minority rights that the majority cannot rule on. Nowhere does it say that you have to abide by all the demands of minorities. Complete nonsense.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:56 am

This is why the democrats are going to lose everything coming up.  House, Senate and, eventually, the Presidency.  They want to force the majority of citizens in the US to accept their ideas without convincing them of their veracity.  Well guess what... you're going to get voted out and rightly so.

Don't be lazy.  Make a proper case and explain the "how" and the "why".  DO NOT mud sling when people don't agree with you.

It's about time these so-called "progressives" and "woke" segment get a smackdown.  It's coming.

Virginia leans democrat.  BUT, in the face of absolute nonsense, it has chosen Republican in the past.  People don't accept to be taken for fools basically.  

Hope that the dems learn their lesson and move more to the center.

Biden is challenging Trump's avg approval ratings now.  That should be a warning cannon right there.


Last edited by sportsczy on Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Pedram Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:33 am

Democrats don't need to move to the "center", they are already as centrist as it gets. they just need to cut the woke crap which only seems to please the freaks and weirdos on twitter while alienating every other normal person who isn't obsessed with this culture.

Stick to the material need of the people instead of playing this grievance politics 24/7, whinging about historical oppression from white people doesn't earn you votes, it only makes you look weak and pathetic. you keep speaking like university elites and wonder why people think you are out of touch with the ordinary person, well good luck turning people to your causes with that attitude.

/end of rant
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Post by sportsczy Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:18 pm

You put into words what I was feeling much better than I did Laughing Thumbs up
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Post by Mamad Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:51 pm

@sportsczy wrote:
Biden is challenging Trump's avg approval ratings now.  That should be a warning cannon right there.


all things aside, Biden being a 170 year old zombie who can't even talk properly is not helping either.

It's like democrats and republicans are racing each other at picking the worst possible candidate as their nominee.

Republicans lost the vote because of Trump and Democrats will lose it because of Biden.
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Post by McLewis Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:25 am

@sportsczy wrote:The bigger issue for me is not the material being taught...  it's the fact that the PTA is being marginalized when it absolutely shouldn't be.  Parents and teachers BOTH need to have input into what the children are being taught.  That's how it's always been.  

Parents cannot and should not be sidelined.  It's unacceptable.  That's the central issue.

So, if the majority of parents in a school district are against a non-core book/material being part of the curriculum, so be it.  It's their right.  It's their kids.  If people don't like the schools in a particular district, move to a place where you're more comfortable with the curriculum.

This isn't a country where the government can mandate what's being taught.  It has to be agreed upon.

I feel like the minority groups in this country want to dictate to the majority.  Fuck that.  The idea is that the majority gets to make the decisions while there are very specific minority rights that the majority cannot rule on.  Nowhere does it say that you have to abide by all the demands of minorities.  Complete nonsense.

At what point were parents ever sidelined in Virginia when it came to what their kids were taught? McAuliffe's gaffes were monumental fuck ups, but were there actual policies put into place that actually took control away from parents and put it solely with the state? If so, I'm not aware of them.

The central issue is Republicans created a racially-charged boogeyman and weaponized it to scare White suburban parents (the majority of which are white women, one of the most powerful voting blocs in this country)  into voting for them. And thanks to the anemia that is the Democrat Party, it worked.

Nothing can be agreed upon if the facts presented are rejected and twisted to fit a particular side's narrative. You talk as if the Republicans operated with these PTAs in good faith. That was never the case from the start.

If you don't think the minority have decided the direction of this country for decades, I have no clue where you've been. Conservatives are the political and ideological minority in this country, yet they control the courts. They control the Governors' Mansions. They control Law Enforcement. It's hilarious that you're telling me minority rule shouldn't be a thing when this country was founded literally on that ideal. Otherwise, what point is there to the Electoral College?

What I get from this though is you will have absolutely no problem with majority rule once white people become the new minority. It will be interesting to see how consistent you remain on this. Because, that IS an inevitability. The browning of this country cannot and will not be stopped. And it scares the ever-loving shit out of white people. That's why they are doing everything they can to hold onto power. Using every legal and illegal recourse.

@sportsczy wrote:This is why the democrats are going to lose everything coming up.  House, Senate and, eventually, the Presidency.  They want to force the majority of citizens in the US to accept their ideas without convincing them of their veracity.  Well guess what... you're going to get voted out and rightly so.

Don't be lazy.  Make a proper case and explain the "how" and the "why".  DO NOT mud sling when people don't agree with you.

It's about time these so-called "progressives" and "woke" segment get a smackdown.  It's coming.

Virginia leans democrat.  BUT, in the face of absolute nonsense, it has chosen Republican in the past.  People don't accept to be taken for fools basically.  

Hope that the dems learn their lesson and move more to the center.

Biden is challenging Trump's avg approval ratings now.  That should be a warning cannon right there.

As this is the Racism thread, I'm only going to address the portion of your post that relates to that:

By using of "woke" in the purposely derogatory manner, you do know you're deriding millions of people of color who see this as an awakening of social consciousness right? That is what the term has always been meant to convey. For people to wake the fuck up and understand that this country is not what it holds itself up to be. It never really was. Acknowledging that is not wrong. Telling the truth should never been seen as divisive.  So you will want to be careful.  I will not let you twist and corrupt that term into an insult against people who want a reckoning in this country on the distinct whitewashing of its history. I won't have it in this thread or any other on this site. You can keep that shit in the right-wing echo chambers where it belongs.

@Pedram wrote:Democrats don't need to move to the "center", they are already as centrist as it gets. they just need to cut the woke crap which only seems to please the freaks and weirdos on twitter while alienating every other normal person who isn't obsessed with this culture.

Stick to the material need of the people instead of playing this grievance politics 24/7, whinging about historical oppression from white people doesn't earn you votes, it only makes you look weak and pathetic. you keep speaking like university elites and wonder why people think you are out of touch with the ordinary person, well good luck turning people to your causes with that attitude.

/end of rant

See my response to Sports regarding use of "woke".

No one is whining about historical oppression. It happened and white people got away with it. White people are benefitting from it, more than any other group in this country. And by some distance.

Stating these empirical facts does not constitute "whining". The very fact that you think in the archaic dynamic of "weak" vs "strong" indicates that you either don't want to think about this subject critically or are incapable of doing so. THAT is true weakness.

We want this country history taught, not as the victor's presented, but as it actually happened. We want it recognized and we want the effects it caused on this country reversed so that ALL truly experience the same prosperity at the same rate and with the same effortless ease that the victors enjoyed. No matter how long that takes, that is the aim.
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Post by sportsczy Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:05 pm

I have an enormous number of people of color who are friends of mine.  In fact, two of my very dearest friends are of color.  It actually feels funny to me to refer to them this way because I never even think of them as "of color".  It's not how I categorize people.

Anyhow, they absolutely HATE everything about this woke movement.  Their comments to me?  We're not victims.  This isn't the 60s.  This isn't an awakening of social consciousness, as you put it.  Most of them are offended by it tbh.

Until my friends whom I respect and trust on the matter, support this movement and then convince me of its validity, I won't have anything to do with it.  In fact, their visceral rejection (more so than me because it's personal to them) of this movement tells me plenty.

I'm not deriding the movement.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  But forcing one's opinion on others is abhorrent.
Calling people "racist" who oppose it is in fact racist.  This shit won't fly.

As an example: we could (and have) very different opinions you and I. Although I don't know you personally McLewis, I respect you regardless. I respect your opinions, whether I agree with them or not. In fact, I think that you and I could have a conversation and we'd both listen. Most people don't listen or try to understand others. The older you get, the more you realize that you don't know anything lol.
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Post by McLewis Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:41 pm

@sportsczy wrote:I have an enormous number of people of color who are friends of mine.  In fact, two of my very dearest friends are of color.  It actually feels funny to me to refer to them this way because I never even think of them as "of color".  It's not how I categorize people.

I mean just listen to yourself. You used " I have a black friend" and "I see no color" instantly. It was your automatic go-to. A kneejerk reaction to my exposure of your racial insensitivity. You went immediately on the defense, leaning out and instead of leaning in and thinking critically. Fascinating.

Anyhow, they absolutely HATE everything about this woke movement.  Their comments to me?  We're not victims.  This isn't the 60s.  This isn't an awakening of social consciousness, as you put it.  Most of them are offended by it tbh.

I grew up on the stories from my grandparents of the racism they experienced in the Jim Crow South and even when they moved North to Midwest. And you know what they told me? The work started in the 60s is not done. Not by far. They told me the worst possible thing white people in America have done in the last 70 years is convince the nation that the Civil Rights movement ended racism. That it solved the racial inequality problem. That it brought about racial justice. It did none of this, yet we were indoctrinated ( by white people) to believe it did.  And when I asked my grandparents what I can do to help continue that work, the answer was simple: Never forget. And never let others forget. That is what is to be "woke". I have an entire circle of friends with similar stories. It's not about being offended. It's about knowing the truth and sharing that truth, no matter how inconvenient it may be to the people who don't want to hear, but need to hear it more than anyone else right now.

Until my friends whom I respect and trust on the matter, support this movement and then convince me of its validity, I won't have anything to do with it.  In fact, their visceral rejection (more so than me because it's personal to them) of this movement tells me plenty.

Why do you need your friends' validation to do what is right? To accept the truth? Why not do the work and educate yourself? Why not form your own conclusions based on that work?

What a puzzling stance to have. It's so incredibly passive, it's essentially inert.


I'm not deriding the movement.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  But forcing one's opinion on others is abhorrent.
Calling people "racist" who oppose it is in fact racist.  This shit won't fly.

Your use of the term "woke" drips of derision. It oozes your absolute contempt for this movement and your rant made that very apparent. Stating truths is not "forcing opinion". Stating racial truths to people who refuse to believe themselves racist (I don't mean you specifically), but actually are....is not racist. To hide behind these fallacies is a massive copout and you do yourself a disservice by entertaining such notions.

As an example:  we could (and have) very different opinions you and I.  Although I don't know you personally McLewis, I respect you regardless.  I respect your opinions, whether I agree with them or not.  In fact, I think that you and I could have a conversation and we'd both listen.  Most people don't listen or try to understand others.   The older you get, the more you realize that you don't know anything lol.

It's cool that you respect me, but I do not say anything of this to earn respect. I say all of this simply because it needs to be said. Whether you respect me or not has very little to do with it, though I appreciate it nonetheless. A lesson that I have very recently learned is that civility is yet another form of control by white people. They decide who is civil and who is not in American society. No one else. They created the rules for civility. They change those rules as well. It's why this overriding, compelling, obsessive need for "compromise" and "common ground" are so polarizing to many of us on the Black Left. The game is rigged from the start because the balance of control is never even. It's why commonality between differing sides in America almost always benefits the most powerful (white people) intrinsically more than everyone else (people of color). Every time. Without fail. When you can change the rules at anytime, you will never lose. So while it's great that you respect me and I respect you, just know that this is the prism in which I see such a concept. That is how and why I approach these discussion in the manner that I do.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:48 am

Re respect:  I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to.  Just the way I was brought up.  So there's no need to earn my respect.  You can lose my respect, however.

Re "listen to yourself".  You're the one who said I was deriding millions of "people of color".  Your term, not mine.  I responded in kind by saying that most of the "colored people" that I know cannot stomach the progressive/woke ideals out there.  So if you don't want me to think in terms of racial categories, don't make arguments in terms of racial categories.  I'm simply responding to you by attempting to think in your context (it isn't natural for me), which is purely racial.  I personally could care less about race, religion, or nationality.  Plenty of good and bad people in every category from my experience.  Stereotypes aren't useful to me because they're often inaccurate.

Re "work to find my own truth".  I always do that.  However, it's impossible for me to truly understand the perspective of a black American.  I wasn't born here.  I moved to the US when I was 15 and lived in many different countries after i graduated from college.  And even if I was born and raised here, I'm not black.  So I can only get perspective from people that have the proper context, i.e. my black American friends.  From there, I can form opinions.  Similar to you trying to understand what it feels like to be Middle Eastern.  You can't.  You can only gather data from trusted sources and then form your own opinion.  The data that I have from the sources that I trust re the black American perspective contradict yours.

Re "racial truths".  It's not simple truth in "this movement".  There's fact mixed in with a whole lot of interpretation and opinion.  The problem is that people involved with this movement cannot accept different perspectives... anyone who disagrees is simply labeled "racist", which is intolerant and dismissive.  I don't understand how this attitude could ever lead to anything constructive.

EDIT:  I made a comment here that didn't read the way I meant it.  The short of it:  black Americans do not have a monopoly on racism and oppression.  There are plenty of victims from various other circumstances.  I'm not trying to diminish the plight of black Americans in any way by saying this.
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Post by McLewis Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:37 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Re respect:  I respect everyone until they give me a reason not to.  Just the way I was brought up.  So there's no need to earn my respect.  You can lose my respect, however.

This is a fundamental difference between us. I believe respect is earned. It is not to be given freely for simply existing.

Re "listen to yourself".  You're the one who said I was deriding millions of "people of color".  Your term, not mine.  I responded in kind by saying that most of the "colored people" that I know cannot stomach the progressive/woke ideals out there.  So if you don't want me to think in terms of racial categories, don't make arguments in terms of racial categories.  I'm simply responding to you by attempting to think in your context (it isn't natural for me), which is purely racial.  I personally could care less about race, religion, or nationality.  Plenty of good and bad people in every category from my experience.  Stereotypes aren't useful to me because they're often inaccurate.

Man, I wish I could just not care about race. To just be able to flip that switch off. I can't though. Because I'm reminded frequently that I'm as far from white as I can possibly be. The first time I experienced racism was at 5 years old. And then again at 8 and then again at 12 and 17, then multiple times as an adult. When that happens, it forces you to see life in terms of race ,whether you want to or not. Whether you choose to or not. Because it's the only reason you were targeted to begin with. It certainly wasn't my height, weight, or the way I walked that made me a target for racists. To not care about race.....that is a mark of privilege. And only one color gets that privilege. Take a guess.

Re "work to find my own truth".  I always do that.  However, it's impossible for me to truly understand the perspective of a black American.  I wasn't born here.  I moved to the US when I was 15 and lived in many different countries after i graduated from college.  And even if I was born and raised here, I'm not black.  So I can only get perspective from people that have the proper context, i.e. my black American friends.  From there, I can form opinions.  Similar to you trying to understand what it feels like to be Middle Eastern.  You can't.  You can only gather data from trusted sources and then form your own opinion.  The data that I have from the sources that I trust re the black American perspective contradict yours.

I have a feeling that I have a lot more in common with Middle Eastern folks than you have with black people. Especially in this country. Both groups are marginalized and racially profiled constantly by white-controlled law enforcement, for example. White people in this country are equal opportunity discriminators. Everyone other than them are the "other" so we're all in the same boat. I don't need data or Middle Eastern friends to confirm that empirical truth. Our lived experiences are very similar though I will say ME people are targeted with more naked racial violence than we are these days since 9/11. It's far less subtle than what we often experience. Far less easier to explain away in court.

Re "racial truths".  It's not simple truth in "this movement".  There's fact mixed in with a whole lot of interpretation and opinion.  The problem is that people involved with this movement cannot accept different perspectives... anyone who disagrees is simply labeled "racist", which is intolerant and dismissive.  I don't understand how this attitude could ever lead to anything constructive.

I'll address this in full in a separate post as I want to get back to discussing CRT. I think providing real-life examples of exactly what CRT is will debunk this notion that our movement is largely based on interpretation and opinion, when fact remains at its core. What I will say is that just like civility, compromise, responsibility, and fairness, white people control society through what they deem to be "bad attitude". Meaning any attitude that challenges their way of life is a bad one. Any attempt to cut through the bullshit and get at the meat of an issue is not civil. Any refusal to continue to prop up the faulty foundations of what is fair are seen as intolerant and dismissive. Any attempt to actually advance society away from its racist foundation is considered too much, conveniently for those who would stand to lose something from those changes. And those people tend to be white.

EDIT:  I made a comment here that didn't read the way I meant it.  The short of it:  black Americans do not have a monopoly on racism and oppression.  There are plenty of victims from various other circumstances.  I'm not trying to diminish the plight of black Americans in any way by saying this.

Another construct of white society is to downplay the oppression of black people and place it alongside the oppression of others. It's a deflection of transferred guilt. A lessening of pain. The only people even remotely more oppressed than black people are Native Americans, who were systematically wiped out by white people over the same span of time as black oppression. Had it not been for their intolerance to white diseases, Native Americans likely would've been in the exact position that black people find themselves in today: descendants of former slaves. So you're right, black people are not the only victims of white oppression. That paints them in a WORSE light. This isn't the rebuttal you think it is.
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Post by McLewis Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:22 pm

So here's some good examples of actual CRT:

- Crack vs Cocaine prosecution

- Stop and Frisk policies

- Driving while Black

The above are mired in laws that, on the surface, are meant to be applied evenly to everyone, regardless of race, but in reality disproportionately affect communities of color, primarily black communities. It probes the idea that a rule, law, policy, process or procedure can only be considered racist if applied differently to different races and ethnicities, particularly because laws are written by people and people are subject to conscious and unconscious bias pertaining to how, when and why they write laws as well as enforce them.
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Post by McLewis Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:40 pm

Take that first example.

Look at how the opioid epidemic is being handled in mostly white communities vs how the crack epidemic was handled in mostly black and brown communities. One community got overpoliced. The other is getting flooded with medical and mental health resources. I think we can all guess which race is getting help and which is getting overpoliced.

THAT is what CRT studies. It has nothing to do making white kids feel bad about being white. Yet when it's explain the terms above....it's considered "woke". It's considered an insult to blue collar communities because big words are getting used.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:20 pm

I'm half Middle Eastern and became a US citizen.  That's why I brought it up as an example.  I know exactly what racism feels like both in France and the US.  Frankly, the US racism that I experienced was mostly out of ignorance and fear, not malice most times.  The way I overcome that is by showing people that they have nothing to fear from me...  the people portrayed in the news are extremists, not me or 99.9% of the people from that region.  I took it upon myself to not react and to change people's perceptions based on my behavior.  It worked for me.  I convinced almost everyone over time.

In France... that was much harder.  Unlike the US, it's absolutely not a melting pot.  You're separated and kept outside of mainstream French society.  But again, 90% of the people were fine folks.  You just had a hard ceiling in terms of what you could achieve as an immigrant.

Honestly, i just behave and view the world in a way that makes me happy and a better person.  I don't really care what other people's hangups are.  If I do notice a problem, I either avoid it or, if appropriate, try to resolve it.  I could see racism in a lot of things... but I choose not to because I'm not racist so why burden myself with the negative emotions associated with it?  Let the actual racists be miserable.  I don't need anyone's help or handouts to live my life. I prefer that you don't hate me. But if you do, that's your problem, not mine.

My issue with the movement is that it only accepts its perspective.  If you don't agree, you're tagged as racist, intolerant, etc.  This type of thinking is destructive and the dictionary definition of intolerance.  This is not how you get people to follow your cause... quite the opposite.
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