Re: The Racism Thread

[McLewis]

Your previous post.

My previous post

You have a very strong tendency to assume that you know what people are thinking; what conclusions they have in mind, what their thought processes are, what their agenda is. You seem to view situations from both sides, which I think is a good thing, but you tend to conclude that there's always a victim. I'll be blunt and say that while I'm sure it never hurts to take a pessimistic stance and assume the worst is around the corner, I imagine it must be quite tiring to always have that mindset.

Scandinavians are known for being very blunt, and I'm probably no exception to that generalization. But what I've learnt through my fairly privileged life of having been able to travel on holiday abroad 3+ times a year ever since I was in kindergarten, is that while I've sometimes thought that I could seamlessly apply my interpretation of what makes logical sense to any situation, in any country and culture, it's often lead me to the wrong conclusions. And then I've just frustrated myself by thinking that there's no alternative to my "deductive reasoning", but clearly there is no end to how different people may view the exact same situations in this world.

Even in Europe, there are completely different cultures that are only a few hours away by plane. My first time in Latvia gave me about as much of a culture shock as I had the first time I traveled to South Korea. Hell, I'm used to it by now, but I still seem to be a bit surprised every time I travel to most parts of Eastern Europe + Italy and natives always tell me to avoid walking into certain areas because of shady people and criminals that prey on tourists, especially at night. I don't have to deal with that stuff here, nor is that something you have to worry about in South Korea - or even in Estonia, which borders to Latvia. I've talked to a lot of foreigners here that are shocked by the observation that women walk alone outside at night.

I did mention in a different discussion about race a while back, that some people in countries like, Romania have a shockingly ignorant view on race. And while it's often tempting to assume that their intentions veer towards racism, I've learnt that they simply don't know any better, even if they're sometimes much more interested in multi-culturalism than I am. If you can apply your ability to see things from multiple points of views to an understanding that there are vastly different cultures and social norms out in the world, I think you'd have a more nuanced view on things.

It's no secret that you're very left-leaning politically, but when it comes to race discussions, you're very narrow-minded despite how reflected you are. That's what I was getting at when I pointed out that you always struck me as quite sensible. Many of our posters tend to jump to the most convenient, easy to recognize conclusions about things (football especially) without taking any context or variables into consideration, and from what I can tell, you don't seem to be that way when you're not talking about race.

Where you see assumptions, I see as observations. What you consider pessimism, I consider cynicism. We see the same shape through different lenses, shaped by our life experiences.

Regarding your example on Romania and the ignorance of race. I understand this completely. Completely homogenous societies will absolutely display emotions ranging from fear to hostility to curiosity to amazement. I know the difference between someone staring at me because they've never seen a Black person and a person believes I am inferior to them because I'm a Black person. One is racist, xenophobic and prejudiced. The other is not. Both are severely underexposed to cultural diversity.

I'll tell you what's tiring though: Seeing people who look like me continually disenfranchised by systems that are defended as colorblind by those who benefit from that disenfranchisement, both passively and actively, yet can't reconcile the fact that this system functions very clearly on 2 very different tiers based on skin color, ethnicity, religion and even culture. Seeing this shit constantly isn't anywhere near as exhausting as being told repeatedly that it doesn't exist or that I just don't understand by those who have no clue what this feels like and never will.

My differing opinions on race issues do not mean I cannot see the context behind them. Believe me, I see it. Then I look beyond it. That's the problem with folks who have no idea what it is to be racially disenfranchised. All of this is academic to them. It's just another subject to talk about. That's how it is when they have no skin in the game. If/when it actually happens to them, they magically and near instantly gain the same insight I have right now. They'll never understand where I'm truly coming from until they experience it first hand....and many never will, in both respects.

[McLewis]

My Post

Your Post.

Im not talking about Africa exclusively tbh. Slavery existed, still exists everywhere regardless of race. I think Korea had the longest unbroken chain of slavery of anyone in history, but often in discourse it gets framed as if its a white people invention and every injustice in the world stems from it.

Koreans did not buy my ancestors, force them onto boats, beat them, rape them, breed them like cattle and work them to death on plantations for the enrichment of the national economy. The "slavery is everywhere" dismissal of systemic oppression of African Americans is as bad faith as they come and I will not entertain it anymore than I have in this response. The focus we have, here in the US, is the restitution of everything owed us as descendants of those who never had the chance to demand redress of their government. At the risk of sounds callous, everything else is a distraction we can't afford.

Today in America, Its not slavery if you can opt out. Even if there are inequalities or disparities, you cannot define it as slavery because that is not what slavery is by definition.

Locking people up for decades due to trumped up minor drug offenses and then forcing them to do free hard labor is indeed slavery. It merely manifested itself in a different shape. It never stopped. The fact that you think it has is a testament to how thorough conservatives have been with white-washing American history.

I've seen a range of statistics recently which grapples with some of the issues that you bring up. The argument is made is that before 1970, there existed a vast network of public and private psychiatric institutions and detention facilities where hundreds of thousands of drug addicts and common criminals were held, who were not counted by the government as part of the overall prison population.

So its not like the prison system suddenly started locking up people from out of nowhere, they were just shifted from mental facilities to jails.

Data never tells the whole story. Especially when it comes to this subject. I would caution against drawing conclusions solely from data without the needed context.

Also, what you're missing here is the root of those issues. There are many, but one is clearer than the others: Research the GI Bill and how African American WWII vets were disenfranchised from using it.

[McLewis]

Regarding under-policing. I'll need to look at that study more closely than I have time for right now.

When I have, I'll post in the police brutality thread.

My short impression of what I did have time to skim is that I'm curious as to the scope of this study.

The NYPD and LAPD are absolutely not underfunded nor are they understaffed. They each have annual budgets that exceed that of small countries.

[Myesyats]

Koreans did not buy my ancestors, force them onto boats, beat them, rape them, breed them like cattle and work them to death on plantations for the enrichment of the national economy. The "slavery is everywhere" dismissal of systemic oppression of African Americans is as bad faith as they come and I will not entertain it anymore than I have in this response. The focus we have, here in the US, is the restitution of everything owed us as descendants of those who never had the chance to demand redress of their government. At the risk of sounds callous, everything else is a distraction we can't afford.

What I would say on this matter is that it still feels fresh in memory like an open wound and this is why it's so controversial to even speak about it. But that doesnt mean that it never happened anywhere else or still persist today. I don't think placing yourself eternally as the victim is more harmful than anything else, because if you come from a position that every system is designed specifically with the purpose of keeping you down and that is the reason for your misfortunes then that can't be healthy. I think the example of police is pretty good for visualizing this with the defund the police shouts and all that. You know I was inclined to believe this too, certain narratives will make you believe that something is true and can never be untrue even when data unequivocally suggests otherwise.

The data on this is actually clear, and when compared to other developed countries, the US is massively understaffed across the board in relation to its level of crime. So you have to ask yourself, when you say "Defund the police", what do you actually mean? US ranks 100 out of 145 listed countries in number of police officers per capita (wikipedia). That is poor for a #1 country.

The reality is that in the US about 3 people are incarcerated per 1 police officer. Generally in developed countries, there 0,29 incarcerated people per 1 police officer - that is a stark difference. So I would say that the US is over-reliant on long prison sentences and actually doesnt have enough officers to handle its rate of crime. Is the number of officers too high in NYC? I don't know honestly. When I checked it's in the ballpark of where London is at. A little more and it is a lot, but other cities like Paris and Tokyo are also heavily-policed. It comes with the territory of being about the largest city in the world, I presume.

[Myesyats]

Data never tells the whole story. Especially when it comes to this subject. I would caution against drawing conclusions solely from data without the needed context.

Also, what you're missing here is the root of those issues. There are many, but one is clearer than the others: Research the GI Bill and how African American WWII vets were disenfranchised from using it.

I am mostly interested in data because it's the best way of research. Well, actually I would say it's the only way of research that is worth anything.

As I understand it the assumption is that, after Jim Crow, there was a rise sharp rise in incarceration which constituted a coordinated effort to keep the racial structures intact. So, what the data suggests is that, in fact, there was no rise at all, or in other words there was no drastic change in the numbers of institutionalization or in the US' penal policy. Data shows that before the war on drugs started, the mental facilities population was abnormally high in which case those people would be otherwise incarcerated.

If you look at this chart, what it shows is that actually there was a sharper rise in the number of black people who advocated for harsher punishment (also in relation to drug use) between 1970-2000 compared to whites:



- The study finds that increased black representation in state legislatures was associated with higher levels of policing per capita.

- Polling data showed that during the period of the punitive turn, black Americans displayed high levels of punitiveness and crime anxiety. A significant majority (76%) of black respondents supported punitive measures, such as the Clinton crime bill, compared to 59% of white respondents.

That may have been caused by limited policy options and other constraints but these are facts nonetheless, and they show that Black Americans showed more support for the Clinton crime bill than White Americans.

[El Gunner]

ehh... even research can be biased depending on how you frame your hypotheses and studies, especially studies in the sociopolitical arena

i believe in Power over Science

[Myesyats]

How otherwise are you supposed to counter a claim that a system is biased or titled a certain way? Only a large dataset visualized over time can reveal whether it is the case.

Admittedly, even studies like these can be flawed, and they are skewed in some ways as authors often admit, but it is the baseline for any meaningful discussion at the same time putting any emotional or sentimental reasons aside.

And obviously you can't build policy on feelings. Conversely, you cant really dismiss the data, because only numbers do not lie whereas people do.

[El Gunner]

Policy is built to favour those in Power and keep the worker slaves satisfied enough, always been that way

[sportsczy]

You can only counter data by presenting other data that can be argued is more representative.  Without data, it's just empirical theory, hearsay, and hyperbole.

Also, saying that the LAPD and NYPD aren't underfunded or understaffed... because they have large budgets is a logical fallacy of the worst kind. Again, data is important:
Avg NYPD wage - start at $60k and get to $120k after 6 years
Avg LADP wage - start at $50k and get to $110k after 6 years
Given the cost of living in those two areas, they cannot live in the cities with a family... so they have to live in the suburbs and commute. No other way.

Then there's the cost of training, equipment, administration, and oversight.

Crime is rising in cities that have "defunded" the police for good reasons. Less police, laws that prevent police from doing their jobs, less prosecution, and stupid bail laws.

In any case, I care little anymore. Let these places burn to the ground. The woke deserve no better.

[FennecFox7]

Couple things; (want to write down my thoughts as simple as possible)

- It's true countries were destroyed and pillaged by colonialism, but that's no excuse for Arabs and North africans to go to europe and take advantage. Europe isn't like America. They have a robust welfare system, with free education and healthcare, instead these uneducated idiots come in and abuse the system, which gives rise to leaders like Le Pen. Pretty simple. There is a racism issue in France, etc, but let's not pretend Algerians and whatnot who come into these countries are angels, because they aren't.

- Going easy on crime and defunding the police will always lead to more crime, especially in areas with strict gun control. That being said, there absolutely is a tendency of police to profile African Americans and people of color. And that's not okay. Irregardless, I have lost complete faith in capitalism in the US. Until the massive education and wealth inequality is fixed, these problems will persist.

[Myesyats]

You can only counter data by presenting other data that can be argued is more representative.  Without data, it's just empirical theory, hearsay, and hyperbole.

Also, saying that the LAPD and NYPD aren't underfunded or understaffed... because they have large budgets is a logical fallacy of the worst kind. Again, data is important:
Avg NYPD wage - start at $60k and get to $120k after 6 years
Avg LADP wage - start at $50k and get to $110k after 6 years
Given the cost of living in those two areas, they cannot live in the cities with a family... so they have to live in the suburbs and commute. No other way.

Then there's the cost of training, equipment, administration, and oversight.

Crime is rising in cities that have "defunded" the police for good reasons. Less police, laws that prevent police from doing their jobs, less prosecution, and stupid bail laws.

In any case, I care little anymore. Let these places burn to the ground. The woke deserve no better.

I dont understand how can you advocate for defunding the police with the level of crime that America has. Its like defunding your military with Russian warships at your coastline. And if you want police to be trained to use less force and deescalate more, you will need more resources for that training

[sportsczy]

You can only counter data by presenting other data that can be argued is more representative.  Without data, it's just empirical theory, hearsay, and hyperbole.

Also, saying that the LAPD and NYPD aren't underfunded or understaffed... because they have large budgets is a logical fallacy of the worst kind.  Again, data is important:
Avg NYPD wage - start at $60k and get to $120k after 6 years
Avg LADP wage - start at $50k and get to $110k after 6 years
Given the cost of living in those two areas, they cannot live in the cities with a family... so they have to live in the suburbs and commute.  No other way.

Then there's the cost of training, equipment, administration, and oversight.

Crime is rising in cities that have "defunded" the police for good reasons.  Less police, laws that prevent police from doing their jobs, less prosecution, and stupid bail laws.

In any case, I care little anymore.  Let these places burn to the ground.  The woke deserve no better.

I don't understand how can you advocate for defunding the police with the level of crime that America has. Its like defunding your military with Russian warships at your coastline. And if you want police to be trained to use less force and deescalate more, you will need more resources for that training

The police in the US was militarized because military-grade weapons were available to criminals.  This was the tipping point:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

The two robbers had body armor that the weapons of the LAPD could not pierce.  They also had weapons that were much more powerful than the police.  

The solution is two-fold:
-  Outlaw weapons that are military grade
-  Once those guns are mostly off the streets, de-militarize the police since there no longer are military threats on the streets

As far as ethnicities being profiled... it's often very richly deserved.  I take myself as an example.  I'm not angry or shocked when I'm automatically searched at airports.  I'm of Middle Eastern descent...  the group of people from my part of the world are the ones that pose the highest threat of terrorism.  So to me, it's logical.  Until my ethnic group changes the data which currently proves the higher risk, then I expect the profiling and I have accepted it as the proper decision by customs agents.

[McLewis]

We can get all into the weeds on why police departments are understaffed and underfunded and how that's contributing (or not) to crime in specific parts of the country, but I'm going to keep it 100 with you gents. All of your pro-police arguments are lost on me. You're certainly correct that leaders in the Black community back in the 90s had their hands in the creation of these crime bills. They were naive enough to believe that doing so would make their communities safer. Now they know better. That's how deception works.

Regarding Defunding the Police, both you appear to be citing talking points that stem from Rep. Jim Jordan's very dishonest claim that 21 cities defunded their police departments to the tune of $1.7B. That never actually happened. The money that was earmarked to be slashed from these budgets never actually was allocated. Many of these PDs backed off and re-allocated that money back into their budgets the very next fiscal year. For many, that meant no actual money was actually taken away. For NYPD, who pledged to slash $1B from their budget, they ended up only slashing just over $300m. That's nowhere near enough to truly impact them negatively nor is it enough for it to impact the city's crime rate, which has been at a historic low.

Bottomline - I have no sympathy or pity for any of these law enforcement departments or their plights because they have no sympathy or pity for the plights of my community. These institutions are primarily focused on protecting property, not people. Whose property? Folks who make more money in minutes than any of us will ever touch in our lifetimes. And those folks don't look like me. So it's not in me to have any sympathy for anyone involved in preserving that type of power for such a small group of people who care about no one, but themselves.

[sportsczy]

It did happen.  I know for a fact that NYPD hiring was frozen for a while and, worse, given the uncertainty with wages keeping up with inflation...  the best police officers have left the force (younger ones) or opted for early retirement (took the pension hit to get out).

Even worse, the DAs of Brooklyn and Manhattan won't prosecute.  So the NYPD has no incentive to book crimes.

Even worse x2, the bail reform laws in NY allow even certain violent criminals to walk out on bail the same day, let alone lesser offenses.   Somehow, bail is considered racist lol

Without laws to protect the citizens and law enforcement to enforce laws, society crumbles.  It's that simple.

In France, the extreme right is about to win parliament and Macron is likely going to be forced to resign.  Why?  Immigration and law enforcement.  Sound familiar?  And these are the French who, as a population, are 10x more liberal than Americans.  Imagine how crazy things have gotten for them to go extreme right.  Italy has already gone extreme right.  Germany is on the verge as well.

US is on the same path. When people feel unsafe, they will kick all these libtards to the curb.

[Myesyats]

It did happen.  I know for a fact that NYPD hiring was frozen for a while and, worse, given the uncertainty with wages keeping up with inflation...  the best police officers have left the force (younger ones) or opted for early retirement (took the pension hit to get out).

Even worse, the DAs of Brooklyn and Manhattan won't prosecute.  So the NYPD has no incentive to book crimes.

Even worse x2, the bail reform laws in NY allow even certain violent criminals to walk out on bail the same day, let alone lesser offenses.   Somehow, bail is considered racist lol

Without laws to protect the citizens and law enforcement to enforce laws, society crumbles.  It's that simple.

In France, the extreme right is about to win parliament and Macron is likely going to be forced to resign.  Why?  Immigration and law enforcement.  Sound familiar?  And these are the French who, as a population, are 10x more liberal than Americans.  Imagine how crazy things have gotten for them to go extreme right.  Italy has already gone extreme right.  Germany is on the verge as well.

US is on the same path.  When people feel unsafe, they will kick all these libtards to the curb.

[McLewis]

"Strong" is subjective.

Cincinnatus was considered a strong leader. So was Genghis Khan.

Both led their respective nations to relative prosperity. Only one of them did it through mass genocide.

[McLewis]

Argentina's Copa America winners were filmed singing a racist chant. Its xenophobic lyrics partly mock the French national team.

"They play for France,
but they are from Angola.
His mother is Nigerian,
his father Cameroonian,
but on the passport: French"pic.twitter.com/0vfQcaPPRT

— DW Sports (@dw_sports) July 16, 2024

I think I missed this the first time it happened after the 2022 WC. Mostly because I didn't watch that tournament.

This honestly doesn't surprise me from the Argentine players, but I'm very surprised Enzo Fernandez, of all players, would be joining on this considering who his teammates are at Chelsea.

Speaking of which:

Wesley Fofana has responded to a video posted on Instagram by his Chelsea teammate Enzo Fernández which showed Argentina players appearing to sing about French players with African heritage. pic.twitter.com/OHOeRnIRNa

— ESPN FC (@ESPNFC) July 16, 2024

The FFF have also weighed in:

The French Football Federation is filing a legal complaint over "racist and discriminatory remarks" by Argentina players in post-match chants about France's team after the Copa América final.https://t.co/lCjtRme9LW

— ESPN FC (@ESPNFC) July 16, 2024

I understand that the FFF have to been seen doing something, but what do they honestly think is going to happen here? FIFA don't care. They'll just tell Argentina to "say no to racism".

Fernandez has apparently issued this "apology":

Enzo Fernández on Instagram in response to a viral video of him and other Argentina players singing about French players with African heritage. pic.twitter.com/LsYyxqoFnP

— ESPN FC (@ESPNFC) July 16, 2024

This has gotten me very curious about the experiences of Black people in Argentina, both those who live there and those who visit. I don't know much about the culture of that country, but the vibe I get is that it doesn't appear to be particularly welcoming to dark-skinned folks. Maybe BC can shed light on that, but I got time tonight so I'll jump down that rabbit hole.

[Clutch]

Pretty sure a genocide happened and that's why there are no black ppl in Argentina

[BarcaLearning]

Thats pretty bad... they even had the balls to post it online, wtf Do the countries have some kind of bad history? Or this all came from the WC final or something?

[BarrileteCosmico]

Going to drop a few links

On what happened to the colonial black slave population:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/27tauo/what_happened_to_the_black_population_of_argentina/

(Tldr a combination of poor health standards, epidemics and intermarriage with other races caused them to disappear as a separate entity)

On how black tourists are treated

https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/18psq5d/black_male_in_buenos_aires/?chainedPosts=t3_9hkfoj

(Tldr treated well usually)

There are a number of recent (2010+) African immigrants. I honestly don't know too much about their experience but they remain a small, but growing, community.

On the scandal: I'm not sure there's much to say. It's a rehash of conversations we had many times in 2018 when Trevor Noah, some African president, etc all said "Africa's team" when talking about France.

The song started in 2022 after Mbappe pissed off all of South America by writing us off, and was kind of a response to that, but obviously it's super racist and I don't endorse it.

Nevertheless a lot of people didn't see anything wrong with it and it became viral. It's common for football chants to be racist, xenophobic, classist, homophobic, etc. and these things are accepted by most football fans as within the norm for banter songs like this one. This one is relatively tame compared to the original one it's based on.

A lot of other people did see something wrong with it, so it's controversial even in Argentina, and you can tell in the video someone is telling Enzo to "cut the live" so they know it's wrong and deserve whatever ban is coming to them.

[Harmonica]

No ban is coming at least on the racism part, as it cannot be proven, or Enzo and co. could sue them for it. The best thing is all offended parties accept the apology and let it be, and Enzo and co. not publicly sing that anymore.

[Arquitecto]

I somehow think Harmonica only defends this due to his support of team Argentina.

I remember in the early 10s I defended Suarez v Evra but honestly that really did come from my younger selfs support of LFC v United. Yes Negrito is not bad context in Uruguay but the context that Suarez used it in was to provoke Evra.

In this theme I am sure Enzo and co. are doing so in good jest but I dont see why they have to resort to skin colour as basically....low hanging fruit to make fun of players who happen also to be better than him.

It stinks of low intelligence.

Chelsea should fine or sack him for it for he isnt even outstanding so they won't lose much

[McLewis]

I've seen the Trever Noah point brought up quite a bit as a sort of justification for this song.

Frankly, I think he's wrong too. France, Belgium, Portugal, England, Netherlands, USA, Canada, etc. are not "Africa's teams". They're a reflection of their respective country's progress regarding diversity and national identity.

In an alternate universe where Europe had not raped Africa of its resources, that assertion would be correct.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Just to be clear, I was not justifying, just drawing a parallel to the conversations we had in that time. I absolutely do not agree with it.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Arq, not to get into old arguments, but I still believe Suarez:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/oct/26/luis-suarez-am-i-a-racist-no-absolutely-not-i-was-horrified

[Arquitecto]

BC once again I defended Suarez well back here with receipts but too me it makes no sense how he kept on repeating the obvious word in quick verbatim looking into his ideas.

I dont have firm conviction on this but it made no sense to me and its why my mind changed but you would know the context better in that part of SA than I.

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