Re: The Racism Thread

[Warrior]

I chuckled at gayborhood tbh

In fact i chuckled for the whole 15 seconds it's quite absurd and ridiculous

[Young Kaz]

Yeah exactly, these people may have always existed but never had a platform, now they have Twitter, Tumblr and are part of a community. But clearly this is counterproductive and creates more division.

These communities always existed though. The Simpsons lampooned this on November 27th 1994. Probably before most of this forum was born.

[McLewis]

I agree with Kaz's overall "Every little bit helps" stance on this, but it's just not my focus right now.

It's a nice gesture that Mike Henry decided to quit playing Cleveland, but does it move the needle at all on racial justice reform with police? No. Does it mean his gesture is meaningless? Also no. It was both a good, but likely inevitable PR move to serve has his contribution to the movement. Personally, I would've been fine with him contributing a good donation to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or to national or local bail program, but understand doing that and still voicing Cleveland would've been problematic from a PR perspective. So this was the only move that served all ends.

[Young Kaz]

I agree with Kaz's overall "Every little bit helps" stance on this, but it's just not my focus right now.

It's a nice gesture that Mike Henry decided to quit playing Cleveland, but does it move the needle at all on racial justice reform with police? No. Does it mean his gesture is meaningless? Also no. It was both a good, but likely inevitable PR move to serve has his contribution to the movement. Personally, I would've been fine with him contributing a good donation to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or to national or local bail program, but understand doing that and still voicing Cleveland would've been problematic from a PR perspective. So this was the only move that served all ends.

That begs the question Mclewis....what is YOUR focus? And why didnt we do this during the teens?


I mean, we are the same age(although I assume you were born in 88 so are a year older than me), but lets look at what has happened with major cases through our young adulthood.

Trayvon Martin murdered 2012
Eric Garner murdered 2014
Tamir Rice murdered 2014
Mike brown murdered 2014
Sandra Bland murdered 2015
Philando Castile murdered 2016

We did NOTHING from these. just keeping it 100. We were content. I am very weary about playing monday morning quaterback with how they run their intifada now.

We are at a point where culture is shifting, and it is being led by kids who watched us, as young adults the past decade, do NOTHING with what the world gave us.Do I agree with everything these young kids are doing now? Probably not, but if we were about the business of dismantling white supremacy as people their age they wouldnt be having to do it now....so fair play to them.

[El Gunner]

I chuckled at gayborhood tbh

In fact i chuckled for the whole 15 seconds it's quite absurd and ridiculous

lmao yea me too, honestly if i was the guy in the video i would have laughed at her stupidity

i maintain again. It's not as simple as hiding under guises of "leftist" "liberal" "rightist" "conservative"
those terms are outdated imo, because the criteria and rules to fall under one term have long gone diminished. It's muddy water. You'll get someone who is progressive, but has conservative stances on some things, and vice versa. So again, i don't get why you guys insist on talkiing on such absolutes that don't exist. It's all about principles and actions, let's criticise and define stuff based off of that and not make it out as if the actions of one person is characteristic of a larger group of people by using those outdated terms.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I mean, we are the same age(although I assume you were born in 88 so are a year older than me), but lets look at what has happened with major cases through our young adulthood.

Trayvon Martin murdered 2012
Eric Garner murdered 2014
Tamir Rice murdered 2014
Mike brown murdered 2014
Sandra Bland murdered 2015
Philando Castile murdered 2016

We did NOTHING from these. just keeping it 100. We were content. I am very weary about playing monday morning quaterback with how they run their intifada now.

We are at a point where culture is shifting, and it is being led by kids who watched us, as young adults the past decade, do NOTHING with what the world gave us.Do I agree with everything these young kids are doing now? Probably not, but if we were about the business of dismantling white supremacy as people their age they wouldnt be having to do it now....so fair play to them.

This is not exactly true, these cases provided the necessary outrage for a grassroots organization to form so that now in 2020 BLM could run. The current protests are not being led by teenagers who are fed up with their elders but by these organizations that already had chapters in most cities across the US.

Not to say that enough was done in the past, agreed there, but this current situation is not exactly organic either.

[Myesyats]

Kaz you failed to answer my question though. Are any Nazi movies removed from TV?

There's a reason why we didn't bulldoze concetration camps in Poland. They remain right where they were as a reminder of how atrocious these genocides were. We could destroy them, but that'd be like trying to act like it didnt happen.

Nobody ever became a racist by watching Community, same as nobody becomes a Nazi by watching Schindlers List. It's not a gesture, it's an overreaction, same as whites begging blacks on their knees for forgiveness or making it very clear that they're ashamed of being born white.

In fact, it's almost a distraction from the real issues." Over-reaction" should be the slogan of this generation.

Another over-reaction is this:
L'Oréal to remove words like 'whitening' from skincare products

I mean... yeah, okay? Do we just ban the color white then and be done with it?

[Young Kaz]

I mean, we are the same age(although I assume you were born in 88 so are a year older than me), but lets look at what has happened with major cases through our young adulthood.

Trayvon Martin murdered 2012
Eric Garner murdered 2014
Tamir Rice murdered 2014
Mike brown murdered 2014
Sandra Bland murdered 2015
Philando Castile murdered 2016

We did NOTHING from these. just keeping it 100. We were content. I am very weary about playing monday morning quaterback with how they run their intifada now.

We are at a point where culture is shifting, and it is being led by kids who watched us, as young adults the past decade, do NOTHING with what the world gave us.Do I agree with everything these young kids are doing now? Probably not, but if we were about the business of dismantling white supremacy as people their age they wouldnt be having to do it now....so fair play to them.

This is not exactly true, these cases provided the necessary outrage for a grassroots organization to form so that now in 2020 BLM could run. The current protests are not being led by teenagers who are fed up with their elders but by these organizations that already had chapters in most cities across the US.

Not to say that enough was done in the past, agreed there, but this current situation is not exactly organic either.

What outrage did those cases cause that Amadou Diallo didnt do in the 90s?

I mean I assume there is some BLM crossover from back then doing things now, but I'd wager the vast majority of the people claiming BLM have co-opted the term from older generations who got older, got jobs within the establishment, and are now living in segregated communities carrying water for the same people they used to decry(Symone Sanders....)

I can appreciate that you think our youth was not wasted in full, but honestly it didnt seem like anything was done compared to the kids carrying the ball forward now.

[Young Kaz]

Kaz you failed to answer my question though. Are any Nazi movies removed from TV?

There's a reason why we didn't bulldoze concetration camps in Poland. They remain right where they were as a reminder of how atrocious these genocides were. We could destroy them, but that'd be like trying to act like it didnt happen.

Nobody ever became a racist by watching Community, same as nobody becomes a Nazi by watching Schindlers List. It's not a gesture, it's an overreaction, same as whites begging blacks on their knees for forgiveness or making it very clear that they're ashamed of being born white.

In fact, it's almost a distraction from the real issues." Over-reaction" should be the slogan of this generation.

Another over-reaction is this:
L'Oréal to remove words like 'whitening' from skincare products

I mean... yeah, okay? Do we just ban the color white then and be done with it?

Things making light of Nazi era crimes are removed from German media and society too from what I have seen.

Its also an unfair comparison as the European has gone above and beyond, since the holocaust, to make amends with Jewish populations. Enough so to take land from one group to give them their own Ethno nation state. You cant compare that to a population where a large part of white people, in this century, question the humanity of.

I cant speak on community as I dont watch Nothing But Crap and the time it was on I was attending a top 10 engineering school in the nation so couldnt relate to anything dealing with community colleges, but the idea that people cannot be radicalized by media is one that does not hold up.

One look at history shows that media is one of the most popular ways to radicalize people, and it holds to this day. Youtube has banned white supremacists like Stefan Molyneaux and Richard Spencer recently for this very reason.

obviously the episodes offended someone if they were removed.

[Myesyats]

And how exactly is "Community" comparable to Nazi propaganda films recorded at the request of Hitler himself? Couldnt be more of a misguided comparison. Again, all I see is overreaction.

It be like trying to combat sexism by cutting dicks off. Don't quote me on that, though

[Young Kaz]

And how exactly is "Community" comparable to Nazi propaganda films recorded at the request of Hitler himself? Couldnt be more of a misguided comparison. Again, all I see is overreaction.

It be like trying to combat sexism by cutting dicks off. Don't quote me on that, though

If it was producing problematic things then its problematic no matter if its a 1:1 comparison to Triumph of the Will.

Also lets not act like NBC is above producing harmful propaganda. This is a network that paid Trump for years, and even allowed him to host their staple show just months after calling Mexican immigrants a bunch of criminals.

[McLewis]

I agree with Kaz's overall "Every little bit helps" stance on this, but it's just not my focus right now.

It's a nice gesture that Mike Henry decided to quit playing Cleveland, but does it move the needle at all on racial justice reform with police? No. Does it mean his gesture is meaningless? Also no. It was both a good, but likely inevitable PR move to serve has his contribution to the movement. Personally, I would've been fine with him contributing a good donation to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund or to national or local bail program, but understand doing that and still voicing Cleveland would've been problematic from a PR perspective. So this was the only move that served all ends.

That begs the question Mclewis....what is YOUR focus? And why didnt we do this during the teens?


I mean, we are the same age(although I assume you were born in 88 so are a year older than me), but lets look at what has happened with major cases through our young adulthood.

Trayvon Martin murdered 2012
Eric Garner murdered 2014
Tamir Rice murdered 2014
Mike brown murdered 2014
Sandra Bland murdered 2015
Philando Castile murdered 2016

We did NOTHING from these. just keeping it 100. We were content. I am very weary about playing monday morning quaterback with how they run their intifada now.

We are at a point where culture is shifting, and it is being led by kids who watched us, as young adults the past decade, do NOTHING with what the world gave us.Do I agree with everything these young kids are doing now? Probably not, but if we were about the business of dismantling white supremacy as people their age they wouldnt be having to do it now....so fair play to them.

My focus is supporting the right people, causes and movements here in my local community, in my state and nationwide. My focus is using my good fortune (being able to work from home continually during a global pandemic) to support charities, food banks and causes that help those that are less fortunate than me. My focus is calling out people who are not allies whenever I see them talking shit. Is any of this enough? I personally don't think so. But it's as much as I'm able to safely do.

Why did our generation do so little when we were younger? I truly don't know the answer to that. Why didn't I do more personally? Frankly, I was focused primarily on just getting by and getting to a place of stability. Very little of what I'm focused on now was on my radar then as a result. So yes, I agree with you. We dropped the ball and the current generation have picked it up and ran with it. All we can do now is support them in doing what we didn't. It doesn't matter to me which generation does it as long as it gets done.

[BarrileteCosmico]

What outrage did those cases cause that Amadou Diallo didnt do in the 90s?

I mean I assume there is some BLM crossover from back then doing things now, but I'd wager the vast majority of the people claiming BLM have co-opted the term from older generations who got older, got jobs within the establishment, and are now living in segregated communities carrying water for the same people they used to decry(Symone Sanders....)

I can appreciate that you think our youth was not wasted in full, but honestly it didnt seem like anything was done compared to the kids carrying the ball forward now.

I guess I just don't see the evidence that "kids are carrying the ball forward" now. The people organizing these protests are not teenagers. The riots might've happened anyways, but those participants seemed mostly young adults to me. And I'm fairly confident that without BLM and other like grassroots organizations the riots might not have been as wide spread, or the protests might not have transitioned into demanding concrete reforms from individuals cities and politicians.

[BarrileteCosmico]

So I don't agree with everything on here, but thought it was insightful and level-headed take on the 'anti racist' movement:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Feels a bit like the maoist cultural revolution

My current and former companies have sent out corporate messages encouraging the employees to become "anti racists" and using all the current buzzwords (yet doing nothing meaningful, like matching donations to these causes or ensuring there's a minority interviewed for every open position), to give an idea of how far these ideas have come. Both are extremely white and male, especially at the middle manager and above ranks.

[VivaStPauli]

Remove all of them.

I know older people on here have come to accept such racism in media, but the kids today arent having it.

They are pulling us all towards progress.....Lets ride the wave.

It is, in many cases, not racism though. In fact in many cases it's condemning racism. That's like forbidding people to speak out against racism, because mentioning racism is racism. Which is dumb.

Your country forbids Nazis from mentioning their point of view....is that dumb?


The kids dont want to hear or see racism takes from media that represents the mouthpiece of systemic racism. The world now agrees with them, which is why these episodes are being removed.

You are entirely allowed, however, to show Nazis on TV if you don't endorse them. You can show the terrible crimes of Nazism, and condemn it. You can also humorously explore how someone might (perhaps through stupidity) come to endorse Nazism, and then mock them for it.

I absolutely think that some instances of past "comedy" are racist. But I also think that an actor with black paint in his face isn't automatically "blackfacing", as in the historical term with connections to racist-as-fuck minstrel shows, or mocking Black people in any way.

Let me explain:
If an actor is wearing black paint in his face to mockingly portray a Black person, that is blackfacing, and has no place in society. (Fuck, in my book that shit should be a hate crime)
If an actor is wearing black paint in his face to non-mockingly portray a Black person, that is not blackfacing, but should probably stop, because goddamn just get a black actor FFS, also it's fucking dumb. Delete the episode if you want.
If an actor is wearing black paint in his face to portray something other than a Black person, it is never blackfacing as the term is historically understood.
You can still dislike it, and maybe we can have a discussion about why you dislike it, and why I'm not bothered (though that would be super uncomfortable since neither of us is black).

But if Ken Jeong is wearing black paint on his face to portray a Dark Elf from Dungeons and Dragons, that's not blackfacing. And IMHO there should be a satirical safe space where a white actor can put on black paint to portray a white person blackfacing, if it is not endorsing blackfacing.
Like for example a white person is portraying a racist person donning blackface to show how racist that person is, and this person is then mocked on that show, how is that racist?
That's like calling out 12 Years a Slave for depicting slavery. Or for containing people using the N-Word. It's ridiculous. I'm obviously being a bit hyperbolic, but I really hope you get my point.

I'm also trying to have an actual civil discussion while being very clear that I am not trying to speak for any minority. I also don't want people to agree with me who will then try to argue that the same is true for statues of Robert E. Lee. All confederates are assholes, just tear down the fucking statues already.

Edit:
(Also, technically, Nazis aren't forbidden from voicing their point of view, they just can't endorse it. Yeah, yeah, I know. But you can be very xenophobic in Germany, legally, you will just get into very real legal trouble if you deny the holocaust or say something that would also be considered hate speech in America. You can easily espouse neo-nazi ideology without committing a crime in Germany. You just cannot repeat lies about supposed human genetics, the historical truth of the holocaust, or endorse violence, or the end of democracy. If you keep those points in mind, you can still be an A-Grade Asshole.)

[El Gunner]

interestingly there is South African Leon Schuster, don't know if you guys heard of him, who is like an absurdist/satirist performance comedian. He has a bunch of movies, and he plays on South African racial dynamics a lot, and he is very on the nose with his gags, and he has also worn blackface before. And his movie Mr Bones wherein he portrayed blackface also got taken of a streaming platform here recently, but a lot of South African, including even some from the Black community thought it was unnecessary.

[Myesyats]

So I don't agree with everything on here, but thought it was insightful and level-headed take on the 'anti racist' movement:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Feels a bit like the maoist cultural revolution

My current and former companies have sent out corporate messages encouraging the employees to become "anti racists" and using all the current buzzwords (yet doing nothing meaningful, like matching donations to these causes or ensuring there's a minority interviewed for every open position), to give an idea of how far these ideas have come. Both are extremely white and male, especially at the middle manager and above ranks.

Sad.

[BarrileteCosmico]

In light of the recent conversations in this section we've decided to reopen this thread

let's keep all the social/cultural conversations here, while anything related to gun violence or the police in the other thread

[McLewis]

An additional note, this thread is for honest, good faith conversation on race, racism, ethnicity and culture.

Bad faith arguments (essentially trolling) will not be tolerated.

[Warrior]

Instead of separate threads it should be "social issues" thread. It's all the same big discussion anyways.

[Warrior]

[Myesyats]

to end racism we need to delete whitepeopletwitter and blackpeopletwitter subbreddits

because clearly people segragate each other when left to their own

[Blue]

The issue with confederacy statues is that a good amount people do not understand why the confederacy was wrong. A lot of people still associate it with southern pride, not a legacy that is rooted in keeping slavery active in the United States.

[Myesyats]

I find it baffling how US military bases are named after confederate generals who literally killed US soldiers.

[CBarca]

My only issue with removing blackface episodes is that it doesn't seem to be a very coherent policy.

There is an episode in season 1 of Community where it shows a character with a swastika tattoo'd on his chest, followed by the justification by the character that the tat is unfinished and "is going to be a maze". The character also makes pretty explicitly racist remarks to Donald Glover near the end of the episode as Glover and Joel McHale realize that the character ("Joshua") is racist.

Can someone please explain to me in what way this differs from a different episode of community which shows Jeong in blackface (I actually disagree with Viva, I realize there is a strong concept that he's a dark elf or whatever the proper name is, but the motivation is quite obviously blackface), and the characters making jokes at the expense/making fun of him?

Why is making fun of blackface not OK, but making fun of swastika tattoos are?

At the end of the day it just seems to me to be

1) something nobody really cares about, honestly, and I say this as someone who has actually come around to understanding a lot more about social justice than I used to, and actively supporting a good chunk of it

2) completely self serving and a way for companies to argue they're "doing something", instead of doing something real like getting more Black people behind the camera/on the writing staff of successful shows (or something like that).

3) what was wrong with letting the TV be, and have studios commit to not doing blackface jokes anymore?

(3) A policy that is great on action, but lacks any clear vision or coherent reason. Like I said, if we're going to pick out blackface, it just makes me think of all the other stuff that is harmful that we're not choosing to purge. Chappelle's standup from a year or two ago, anyone? A lot of transphobia. What about Bill Burr's famous "hitting women" bit? Or, holy shit, the relatively vast collection of gay/racist jokes (soooo many gay jokes) within Community by a character who was a bigot.

It feels to me to be a more focused and more coherent policy for networks and studios to commit to some sort of vision for the future that promises no more blackface or other jokes about trans/queer people or other bits like that in their movies/shows than it does to me to go through their catalog and pull entire shows because there was a fat-shaming joke. Or a transphobic joke. Or a gay joke. Or, yes, a joke making fun of or condemning blackface.

[CBarca]

So I don't agree with everything on here, but thought it was insightful and level-headed take on the 'anti racist' movement:

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/on-white-fragility

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Feels a bit like the maoist cultural revolution

My current and former companies have sent out corporate messages encouraging the employees to become "anti racists" and using all the current buzzwords (yet doing nothing meaningful, like matching donations to these causes or ensuring there's a minority interviewed for every open position), to give an idea of how far these ideas have come. Both are extremely white and male, especially at the middle manager and above ranks.

I wouldn't call it level headed at all. It's 3:30 AM and I should try to get back to bed, maybe I'll respond in longer length tomorrow.

I just don't feel it's level headed as the whole thing is dripping with analogies to, like you said, a Maoist revolution. Or Russian revolution, or North Korea. It's very aggressive. To be fair, so are a lot of activists on Twitter. But I don't agree with their relentless aggression either.

Not to "bothsides" the issue, but honestly, especially with social activism, people need to fucking chill. I would argue that outrage culture, which is prevalent regardless of political or social ideals, is as big of a problem as anything right now.

With respect to the content of the article, it's pretty strawman in many parts. I don't disagree that antiracism can be transformed into something ugly. But antiracism at its core is just the concept of actively working to undo the long tyrannical reach of racism, rather than ignoring it. It's certainly inspired me to volunteer more with some of my free time. Before, I was content to just be aware of my privilege.

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