Dutch General Election 2017

Still disagree. I lived in the US for years and everyone knew their mom's last name. Everyone. No questions asked. These are your experiences, nothing more. Ask @CBarca if he and his friends know their moms' last names.

And why is the low birthrate a fault of the women? its a decision to be made by both genders to have a kid. Also, baby-factories? for someone claiming to speak for women this whole thing is terrible.

Let people do what they want to do. Simple as that. More, less or no kids, its not worse or better, its a preference.

VivaStPauli wrote:The low birth rates have other reasons, too, though. With rising education levels people wait longer, many miss the window for kids. Also, birth rates also have a bit to do with the fact that women's rights still aren't at a point where a woman can easily combine a career and kids, it seems weird that this somehow has to be a choice, coming from a family where all the women always worked.

I think the only woman in my family that was a stay at home mom was my mother's mom, but grandma was a bit on the insane side anyway...

So when they cant combine a career and kids they opt for the former, which kind of helps my point too . I think, a special characteristic of the west at this point in times, is that women have the ability to control their destiny to a point. If they want to compete against the boys in the boardroom they can. They aren't forced to be barefoot in the kitchen fixing dinner for a bloke and the kids. Its liberating.

My mom works, I feel in large part now, because I advocate for her. As her only son I am probably the one person she listens to. My dad, my uncle, her dad even, doesnt want her to work anymore but she listens to me and continues because it makes her happy, and I have that pull as her son(another sign of patriarchy honestly). My grandmother had the odd job or two when my mom was younger, but I've never known her to work. Same for my other grandmother(fathers) mom. Guys just had the women on a string back then. I used to think it was only Asian(japanese) guys either, but talking around it was like that for many people. Peep this from Donald Trump in 1994:


specifically 1:25. Fucking grandpa right there. I remember being a little kid, around 94,95,96, and how my grandpa would pitch a fit if even saw me helping in the kitchen with dinner. Kids don't come with these preconditioned roles. I would see my grandma,little sister,and aunt in the kitchen with food and I would come in and run behind them. That wasn't acceptable for a boy though it was always "Boy! come in here and play this super nintendo" and these roles were placed in stone around a kids neck. They grow into them and accept them. Falling into a subservient role isnt a choice, but a burden of expectation placed on you by your surrounding environments. In sounds biased, but I know how we are raised. I know how certain things are forced on genders. I even remember when we would have packed lunches for school my aunt would be forced to carry mine, and when she moved on to middle school my little sister would have to carry mine at that point. Trained to take care of men.

Betty ffs. Making me agree with unique...

I can't wait to have children and take off work for their first months if we men are allowed to get the same rights as women in regards to maternity leave. Don't know if it's happened in Denmark yet, but it should have.


Also. Isn't it normal to know your parents and grandparents' last names from before marriage?

I have three last names though. Only use two officially. And I know basically all last names. It's pretty normal to keep both.

I usually agree with you betty but you need to chill. Who doesn't know their parents last name ffs

rincon wrote:Still disagree. I lived in the US for years and everyone knew their mom's last name. Everyone. No questions asked. These are your experiences, nothing more. Ask @CBarca if he and his friends know their moms' last names.

And why is the low birthrate a fault of the women? its a decision to be made by both genders to have a kid. Also, baby-factories? for someone claiming to speak for women this whole thing is terrible.

Let people do what they want to do. Simple as that. More, less or no kids, its not worse or better, its a preference.

Did they? What about grandmothers last name?

I mean maybe it is, but the few people I asked about this had to think on it. Almost none knew their grandmothers last name when I asked them. Maybe we run around in different circles, but I have asked a few different types of people this(blacks,whites, and Asians) and very few could pass the grandmother one. Absolutely none of my Asian friends could name their grandmothers maiden name.

Freeza wrote:Betty ffs. Making me agree with unique...

I can't wait to have children and take off work for their first months if we men are allowed to get the same rights as women in regards to maternity leave. Don't know if it's happened in Denmark yet, but it should have.


Also. Isn't it normal to know your parents and grandparents' last names from before marriage?

I have three last names though. Only use two officially. And I know basically all last names. It's pretty normal to keep both.

I think Unique has a traditionalist approach to this which speaks to male sensibilities a lot easier than the idea I am putting forth which is a lot harder to accept from a traditional viewpoint


I'd love to see Unique return with an answer to the question I asked him to ask his wife about earlier about what did she dream of becoming when she was a kid. Its a great way to learn about your partner.

My wife grew up and did exactly what she wanted to do. Here in Europe we don't tend to put pressure on women to do something they don't want to do. If a woman chooses not to have kids and have a career instead nobody can stop her. When my wife was younger she worked in a care centre for disabled kids so she has always loved kids. Now she loves to do her stuff in the house and garden she is very house proud. She is exactly where she wants to be and it has always been 100% her choice. And dude how can you not know your mums name. Nobody will love and care for you like your mother and you didn't even bother to find out her name. Shameful buddy.

You said that a woman had to choose between a career and a family to have kids, which is just not the case in the most equal contries. USA is very far behind in this regard, and I'd say European countries, especially the Northern ones have a huge number of women who can do both.

A Nuclear family is important in some sense. But the term needs to include more than the traditionalist approach. A nuclear family is a man, wife and 1 child or more. I don't see the problem with that.

Also you're projecting your opinions on having kids. I agree with Rincon. I don't how you can say that a woman won't choose to have a kid if she has a choice. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

I really think you're generalizing a problem where having kids isn't the problem. The problem is countries where there aren't equal rights and protection for pregnant women. Free healthcare and paid maternity leave should be a requirement for all countries imo. Maternity leave should be equal for both men and women, so they can share the responsibility and not affect the woman's career more than the man's.

Thimmy wrote:

Freeza wrote:Betty ffs. Making me agree with unique...

I can't wait to have children and take off work for their first months if we men are allowed to get the same rights as women in regards to maternity leave. Don't know if it's happened in Denmark yet, but it should have.


Also. Isn't it normal to know your parents and grandparents' last names from before marriage?

I have three last names though. Only use two officially. And I know basically all last names. It's pretty normal to keep both.

I bet the Danish laws regarding maternity/paternity leave is the same or similar to the Norwegian ones.

Norway – In Norway the statutory parental leave is either 49 weeks at 100% salary or 59 weeks at 80% salary to be divided between both parents but with some constraints as to how much a mother must take and how much a father must take.

By law the mother MUST take 9 weeks of that leave for herself.  She must finish work 3 weeks before the due date and then take the following 6 weeks to be home with the baby. This period will be paid at 100% or 80% depending on the applicants choice. The National Welfare Office pays a big chunk of this, but most employers in Norway will top up to your full salary.

In Norway the father is entitled to take 2 weeks paid leave when the baby is born and MUST take (by law) an additional 14 weeks of paid leave (either 100% or 80% salary depending on the applicants choice) before the child turns 3 years old. Therefore, the parents need to decide how to use the remaining weeks e.g. the mother takes it all, the father takes it all or they both work part-time and share it – employers generally respect the choice of the parents in this matter since Norway is such a family focused country.

My girlfriend wants to have kids ASAP, but I'm not ready for it yet. From my experience, Norwegian women generally seem to want to settle down earlier than men do. I want to have kids one day, but I don't see any reason to rush it.

Yeah I think it's the same pretty much.

I have always wanted children. I'm not ready for it yet though.

From my experience, women don't have to settle for children or a career. A lot of women want both but everyone chooses to finish their education first and then get paid leave. Men are usually older when they settle down. I think the first child is usually at age 29 for a woman or something and some 3-4 older for man in our countries.

My daughter is 19 and she has a boyfriend and they both work and are not thinking about starting a family. But one day I hope to have some gran kids but not me or anyone will ever put pressure on her to get married and have kids. I have no doubt she will because she is very much like her mother. She studied Heath and social care and when she sees a baby she just has to give it a hug but as I said what she does in live is entirely her choice

Yeah, I wasn't using settle to argue against you. We are very lucky with our social benefits and equal opportunities.

Teen pregnancy though. That's so idiotic. Def results in worse quality of life.

Unique wrote:My wife grew up and did exactly what she wanted to do. Here in Europe we don't tend to put pressure on women to do something they don't want to do. If a woman chooses not to have kids and have a career instead nobody can stop her. When my wife was younger she worked in a care centre for disabled kids so she has always loved kids. Now she loves to do her stuff in the house and garden she is very house proud. She is exactly where she wants to be and it has always been 100% her choice. And dude how can you not know your mums name. Nobody will love and care for you like your mother and you didn't even bother to find out her name. Shameful buddy.

Fair play.

If she grew up to do exactly what she wanted to do why did she stop? Surely she could be a great mom, and continue the career she wanted that brought her joy? Knowing your conservative leanings, and the expectations placed on women, I wouldnt be shocked if she felt pressure to give that up to be a housewife/mother to you and your kids. There is pressure everywhere placed on women to conform to the homemaker role in society. Its the same whether Europe,Asia, or Africa. The only difference is where we are now women can have dreams and attempt to chase them. The societal pressure is still there though.

And I didnt know my grandmother's last name, and I agree that was shameful. That is the way society has it set up though. A wife marries into a family, takes that last name, and produces kids of that family lineage with no trace of the other in name(in our society).The shame you feel is really towards a patriarchal system.

Freeza wrote:You said that a woman had to choose between a career and a family to have kids, which is just not the case in the most equal contries. USA is very far behind in this regard, and I'd say European countries, especially the Northern ones have a huge number of women who can do both.

A Nuclear family is important in some sense. But the term needs to include more than the traditionalist approach. A nuclear family is a man, wife and 1 child or more. I don't see the problem with that.

Also you're projecting your opinions on having kids. I agree with Rincon. I don't how you can say that a woman won't choose to have a kid if she has a choice. That's one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard.

I really think you're generalizing a problem where having kids isn't the problem. The problem is countries where there aren't equal rights and protection for pregnant women. Free healthcare and paid maternity leave should be a requirement for all countries imo. Maternity leave should be equal for both men and women, so they can share the responsibility and not affect the woman's career more than the man's.

Fertility going down as intelligence increases in women is not an opinion, but a fact:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_and_intelligence

When given a choice on whether to compete in terms of careers and dreams, or to be the baby-factories of men they choose the former, and its not hard to see why. Kids are a financial drain and a contributor of health issues in women. These are facts. That is not to say some women won't still choose to have kids, but looking at this objectively the facts remain.

Also, even with the benefits there, women are placed at a direct disadvantage in the workforce because young women are always viewed as a risk in terms of not only leaving, but getting pregnant and having to be cared for weeks/months with no return on investment during this period. This directly could lead to discrimination in promotions, and work available to them. All based on the expectations of motherhood placed on them.

Thimmy wrote:Last night, I actually fell asleep on the couch while watching the Danish version of teen moms or whatever it's called I don't normally watch that show, but the kids who appear on it don't look like they would've opted for a career option if things had been different, haha.

That show... Kill me now

Betty La Fea wrote:
And I didnt know my grandmother's last name, and I agree that was shameful. That is the way society has it set up though. A wife marries into a family, takes that last name, and produces kids of that family lineage with no trace of the other in name(in our society).The shame you feel is really towards a patriarchal system.

This is so, so wrong. Jesus. Unbelievable that its 2017 and this is your world.

A woman doesn't marry into a family any more than a man does, and doesn't produce kids for that lineage. She has kids for her own family.

Middle age level thinking right there.

@Thimmy for sure I'd love if my GF made more money than me. Its probably never gonna be the case cause my field is much more lucrativem but it would be awesome. Can't understand the problem some people have with that.

rincon wrote:@Thimmy for sure I'd love if my GF made more money than me. Its probably never gonna be the case cause my field is much more lucrativem but it would be awesome. Can't understand the problem some people have with that.

It's ridiculous gender roles. Nothing more.

It's something that affects a lot of people in Scandinavia. Women are higher educated than men.

44% of the women aged 35 have a high education compared to 31% of the men (Denmark). Which means the gender roles are often resulting in hardships in finding someone to marry and/or have kids with, because a man is expected to earn more, or because men have such low self-worth they can't overcome a woman earning more.

I wouldn't mind.

rincon wrote:

Betty La Fea wrote:
And I didnt know my grandmother's last name, and I agree that was shameful. That is the way society has it set up though. A wife marries into a family, takes that last name, and produces kids of that family lineage with no trace of the other in name(in our society).The shame you feel is really towards a patriarchal system.

This is so, so wrong. Jesus. Unbelievable that its 2017 and this is your world.

A woman doesn't marry into a family any more than a man does, and doesn't produce kids for that lineage. She has kids for her own family.

Middle age level thinking right there.

Yet, historically speaking, it was the woman giving up her name, and literally being given away by her father at the wedding. Theres a reason I had to call my grandmother to ask her what her name was before marriage. Even then there is no connection to the Kudo name for me now. Don't even know how to spell it in English(Kudo,Kudoh,Kudho ).

It sounds middle aged, but that is the expectations women are fighting against right now. If it makes you upset, then you just might be a feminist too.

Thimmy wrote:I honestly can't relate to this housewife/homemaker role you're talking about, Betty. As it stands, I'm the one who does most of the cleaning around the house, I'm usually the one who makes the food, and I have the lowest education in my household. I have no issues with my girlfriend having a higher income than me, I don't see why that should be a problem. I take the initiative to clean the house when I have time to do so because I like having a clean house, and I do most of the cooking because I'm generally a better cook than my girlfriend is. I don't see the point in having one part of a couple fully commit to these things, based on gender. I haven't read all of your posts in this thread, but your impression of a typical relationship and gender roles seems quite conservative.

Fair play, and honestly I can see where you are coming from in a very liberal(I assume) area. The issue is we are trying to get women everywhere to the level where their family could accept their daughter being in a relationship with a guy and not expect him to be the primary breadwinner, or to expect their wife to be barefoot in the kitchen being a baby-factory for a mans kids. If we can get to a point where this is the norm, and women can successfully juggle both career and kids with no societal expectations in their life in terms of "a woman's place" then we are headed in the right direction.

This is your prerogative Betty. You are the one that didn't know your mother's name, not us. You are the one thinking about 'legacies', 'giving away' and always referring to women raising "some bloke's kid" or "a man's kid" instead saying they are her own kids. You say that thing about being raised with your aunt and sister and whoever carrying your stuff and you not being able to help in the kitchen. I would have gotten my ass beat if I were to ask for that to my family as a kid (figuratively, I never actually got beat ).

These are your issues that you are projecting them onto everyone else.

Ask the guys here in this thread if kids are part of their father families any more than their moms. I'll bet the answer is no. If anything, the fact that child custody cases are almost always won by the mothers says the opposite.

You've got some serious thinking to do about these ideas.

rincon wrote:This is your prerogative Betty. You are the one that didn't know your mother's name, not us. You are the one thinking about 'legacies', 'giving away' and always referring to women raising "some bloke's kid" or "a man's kid" instead saying they are her own kids. You say that thing about being raised with your aunt and sister and whoever carrying your stuff and you not being able to help in the kitchen. I would have gotten my ass beat if I were to ask for that to my family as a kid (figuratively, I never actually got beat ).

These are your issues that you are projecting them onto everyone else.

Ask the guys here in this thread if kids are part of their father families any more than their moms. I'll bet the answer is no. If anything, the fact that child custody cases are almost always won by the mothers says the opposite.

You've got some serious thinking to do about these ideas.

These are issues many people grow up facing though. Trump himself said he would go through the roof if he got home and dinner wasn't done. These are roles that still exist. I never made up my own bed until I was like 16-17 years old. I am not an old man either

I am also curious to what percentage of, separated couples, actually have the father petition for the kid. From what I see when the relationship sours the guy is much more willing to wash his hands of the woman and the child. Hence the reason child support is such an issue in America now. Kids can be a drag on the bachelor lifestyle

Thimmy wrote:

Betty La Fea wrote:If we can get to a point where this is the norm, and women can successfully juggle both career and kids with no societal expectations in their life in terms of "a woman's place" then we are headed in the right direction.

I believe we've reached that point, here in Norway and in Scandinavia. As far as I know, no one expects the guy to be the breadwinner here, and no one expects the woman to stay in the kitchen on account of her being a woman. The only exception are the super small minority of ultra conservatives who have time travelled here from the 50s.

The Scandinavian countries sometimes get teased for making men push strollers, but we're the only countries in the world that have reached a point that is so close to complete gender equality that, if you ask the average Scandinavian person, they wouldn't know that we're not 100% there, yet. In my opinion, the most important thing is that neither gender feels that they're being discriminated against, based on societal expectations.

A bunch of women in Oslo and Sweden wouldnt have been out there marching for the global women day march if we had got to that point fully. I'm sure its much better there, but your sisters still seem to have big issues to address with their society.

Betty La Fea wrote:

Natalie Portman wrote:
3- Make nuclear family making trendy and cool again. Stop public funding for university programs of gender studies + 3rd wave feminism, etc that shame nuclear family building and indoctrinate young women into thinking having a husband and loving children is some sort of evil oppression and sign of patriarchy etc.

But its NOT trendy and its NOT cool. Having kids sucks. Point blank. That is why when given a true choice woman don't opt for it. Giving up your health, and career, to house a parasite(not to be rude, but thats what it is) for the better part of a year, and have a net drain on you financially for 2+ decades afterwards, is a bum deal.  The smarter women are, the more likely they are to see it.

Opting for Children means a woman is outright accepting a lower quality of life in the developed world.She's giving up a career,dreams,and many other things a guy isnt by having the same. Women know its a bum deal. The only women who accept it are those without such ambition on their own, those who are brainwashed by their own family norms, or the true poor who expects the state to foot the bill for their own life choices. What separates the first and third world today are women who have the ability to take their destiny in their own hands.

You are espousing quasi-Marxist anti-scientific brain cancer here.

Even a cursory glance at the data prove women are less happy now than in the 1950s.
Economic freedom is good but freedom and happiness are not the same thing.

When it comes to the crunch, most professional women who reach the very top cut their career and start a family. They prefer having a family to working >60 hour weeks and competing in a cutthroat competition.

That's nature. The fact that you can't see how biology pressures women to want children (as opposed to muh patriarchy) is painfully delusional.

If anything social pressure pushes women into being career women, not some feminist caricature of a baby factory. For God's sake it's judged politically incorrect to idealise the housewife while you are screaming shit about patriarchal social conditioning  

Proof: There is more gender differentiation in the most egalitarian societies (Scandinavia)
BTFO