Liverpool Flopping

El Gunner wrote:Reading the Pool fans comments in this thread Isn't this sweet to watch, Mole?

If only we could beat them this weekend, it would have been brilliant. Would send them straight down a downward spiral for the rest of the season until they beat a few big teams early in the next season and reach their peak, only for them to inevitably fumble again because they're not good enough.

I'm not sure if your talking about Liverpool or arsenal tbh.

Curtinho wrote:

M99 wrote:Whatever happened to Firmino? Wasn't he as good as Sanchez

Who said he was as good as Sanchez? I thought that the argument was he was as good as/better than Ozil. Which he is. I thought he'd continue to improve this season and be up there with Hazard and Sanchez but he's definitely seen a dip in form (though I compare it more to the whole team struggling ala Hazard's poor form last season).

This pretty much sums it up and proves the sentiment the rest of the footballing world shares regarding Liverpool fans tbh. The amount of hyperbole is simply unreal. They overhype mediocre players to such extreme extents that when they show their true quality after the initial hype meter cools down, they all sit around and wonder what went wrong. Oscar level talent. Even when he was playing well, he was greatly helped by the system, Klopps gung ho style and Coutinho.

I feel like you just don't watch Liverpool week in and week out. Did you watch Firmino in the Bundesliga? He wasn't carried by anyone. The team's dip in form and lack of ideas against teams that park against them have contributed to his dip in form. Firmino is miles better than Oscar and there's no 'hyperbole' when you actually watch how he plays, the way he props up the team and the work he does even when he's not scoring. Something else to keep straight, too, is that Firmino is not a goal scorer -- but he's made the 2nd most chances of any player in the PL from open play (next only to Sanchez). That's what he does. People really have a skewed view of Firmino because he's being played as a 'striker' but he's a playmaking forward not a goal scorer. Not to mention he brings so much more to the team off the ball than anyone he's compared with.

Anyway, I'm not going to go on and on about Firmino but he's a fantastic player. Not sure how people can hype Coutinho and be down on Firmino but eh...

Firmino on his best day couldn't lace up Lingard's boots.

M99 wrote:Firmino on his best day couldn't lace up Lingard's boots.

lingard is so dumb I doubt he can lace his own boots.

Unique wrote:

M99 wrote:Firmino on his best day couldn't lace up Lingard's boots.

lingard is so dumb I doubt he can lace his own boots.

Speaking from personal experience I see.

M99 wrote:

Unique wrote:

M99 wrote:Firmino on his best day couldn't lace up Lingard's boots.

lingard is so dumb I doubt he can lace his own boots.

Speaking from personal experience I see.

my boots have Velcro

You should both invest in those new laceless boots I reckon.

Curtinho wrote:You should both invest in those new laceless boots I reckon.

talking about not being good enough to lace someone's boots mesi is the only player that's too good to lace his own boots.

back on topic please guys

Until Liverpool get better players, Liverpool will always be flopping.

We don't do business in January so Klopp only has had 1 summer transfer window so far and he's gotten us 2 of our best players Mane and Matip. And one serviceable rotation player in Wijnaldum.

Liverpool have only 3 players now that should be starting moving forward and every other player should be upgraded and the current players demoted to squad depth or in extreme cases sold:

Coutinho, Mane, Matip.

Liverpool have 9 serviceable rotation players that will be great for squad depth but should not be main starters if we want to go anywhere:

Firmino, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Clyne, Milner, Origi, Lovren, Karius


Depth/Rotation:



Everyone else must go. we need a MASSIVE injection of quality into our starting XI. I understand that it can't be done in one window. that's just too many signings. But making 3 additions per window is what I'm looking for.

We did that last summer with Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum.

Now we need to do it again and preferably more in the Mane/Matip category and less in the Wijnaldum category.

Van Dijk and Naby Keita are great targets and hopefully come to fruition because both will walk into the starting XI and bring much needed quality.

Having 5 key players (Coutinho, Mane, Matip + these two) would make us much better even if the rest of the team is filled with serviceable players like Firminos and Lallana's and Wijnaldum's and Clynes'.

The problem Liverpool have now is they can't attract the elite talent, their scouting isn't as good, Zorc was the man at BvB not Klopp for scouting. Even if Liverpool manage to scout a player, their prices would be pushed up because of the EPL money and those players might prefer to go to other teams were they could get more game time. So you can't really get the scouting edge nor the talent edge over EPl clubs so that leaves tactical edge, which as I predicted would be Klopps downfall.

Classic Klopp beating big teams and failing against little teams because of his actual tactics. He hasn't adjusted since 12/13 when teams in the bundesliga started treating BvB with respect and ceding the ball. Klopps teams are a transition team and he last won the Bundesliga when the teams weren't as advanced tactically and before Bayern became a super team. He has lost 6 finals in a row since his 11/12 DFB Pokal win.

Klopp isn't fit enough to manage a big club as they require you to take the onus and attack which is why they do well against the top teams because all the top teams mostly cede the ball. Except Liverpool can get an all time talent like Suarez I can't see them winning anything. I have the same issue with Unai Emery as he is also a manager that depends on transitions which means he will work wonders against specific clubs but suffer against teams that sit back as he is finding out in Ligue 1 despite the talent gap.

We don't need to attract elite talent. Mane and Matip came and their level of quality is more than good enough. BUt we need more of this quality.

Van Dijk and Naby Keita are being linked and they are more than good enough to make us better. I don't see how we wouldn't be able to attract players from Soton and RB Leipzig.

Salah deal was nearly done 3 years ago and he wanted to come until our transfer committee cheaped out and didn't offer what they agreed with Basel.

Zielinski deal was nearly done this past summer except we *bleep* over Watford for Sinclair and Udinese and Watford share a common owner so Udinese didn't sell to us because they got pissed off lol.

But the point stands that we can attract this tier of players.

We don't have to sign and be able to attract Pogbas and Griezmanns, and Di Marias and Ozils to compete with the other big boys.

Don't call me James wrote:Until Liverpool get better players, Liverpool will always be flopping.

We don't do business in January so Klopp only has had 1 summer transfer window so far and he's gotten us 2 of our best players Mane and Matip. And one serviceable rotation player in Wijnaldum.

Liverpool have only 3 players now that should be starting moving forward and every other player should be upgraded and the current players demoted to squad depth or in extreme cases sold:

Coutinho, Mane, Matip.

Liverpool have 9 serviceable rotation players that will be great for squad depth but should not be main starters if we want to go anywhere:

Firmino, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Clyne, Milner, Origi, Lovren, Karius

Coutinho - ?????? - Mane
?????? ------ ??????
??????
?????? - ?????? - Matip - ??????
??????

Depth/Rotation:

?????? - Firmino - ??????
Wijnaldum - Lallana
Hendo
Milner - Lovren - ????? - Clyne
Karius

Everyone else must go. we need a MASSIVE injection of quality into our starting XI. I understand that it can't be done in one window. that's just too many signings. But making 3 additions per window is what I'm looking for.

We did that last summer with Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum.

Now we need to do it again and preferably more in the Mane/Matip category and less in the Wijnaldum category.

Van Dijk and Naby Keita are great targets and hopefully come to fruition because both will walk into the starting XI and bring much needed quality.

Having 5 key players (Coutinho, Mane, Matip + these two) would make us much better even if the rest of the team is filled with serviceable players like Firminos and Lallana's and Wijnaldum's and Clynes'.

the problem is klopp in a year at the club has signed in your opinion one of the best defenders in England and has not improved our defense at all. now nobody can say if klopp had a world class back 4 that we would or would not have a great defence because we are far from having that. but Rodgers got sacked because our defence just gave away goals for fun and like it or not this team is just as bad. I'm not saying just changing manager should win us the title but if klopp was a top class manager he should at least have improved our defence. all the coaching in the world cant turn a scrub striker into a goal machine but good coaching can improve a poor defence and lets be honest our defence is so bad it wouldent take much to improve it. conte has luis and cahill as centre backs so you cant say they have a great defence because they have world class defenders. they defend well because they have organisation that comes from good coaching on the training pitch. klopp has no plan b and no organisation at the back. it don't matter who we sign in the summer we will still give away bucket loads of goals next season.

Klopp is still stuck with mostly the same shit average squad that Rodgers has had except for his few main additions in Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum.

Mane and Matip are now two of our best players.

Our defense sucks because Mignolet is still in goal. Our defense sucks because Lovren is still a starter. Our defense sucks because Lucas 3rd choice CB. Our defense sucks because Milner is not a defender. Our defense sucks because neither Henderson nor Can is very good at protecting the back 4.

You also forget that in the first half of the season when Matip was playing at his top form before his injury we allowed the least amount of shots and least amount shots on target and least amount of touches in our box.

The only two ways we conceded were dumbass mistakes by Lovren, Mignolet, Clyne, and Henderson falling a sleep for the most part. And set pieces.

Other than that our defense was very good and it coincided with us being 1st and 2nd in the league and very close to Chelsea until January came about.

Stop talking about the same nonsense in every post Unique.

I already talked about the Matip affect this season. It's very real. Right now Matip is not in his top form. He's just come back from injury and he's not nearly where he was in first half of the season.

Now like I said we need personnel improvement. We need to improve on both full backs. Improve on the keepers. Improve on Matip's partner. And improve on the DM.

Don't call me James wrote:Klopp is still stuck with mostly the same shit average squad that Rodgers has had except for his few main additions in Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum.

Mane and Matip are now two of our best players.

Our defense sucks because Mignolet is still in goal. Our defense sucks because Lovren is still a starter. Our defense sucks because Lucas 3rd choice CB. Our defense sucks because Milner is not a defender. Our defense sucks because neither Henderson nor Can is very good at protecting the back 4.

You also forget that in the first half of the season when Matip was playing at his top form before his injury we allowed the least amount of shots and least amount shots on target and least amount of touches in our box.

The only two ways we conceded were dumbass mistakes by Lovren, Mignolet, Clyne, and Henderson falling a sleep for the most part. And set pieces.

Other than that our defense was very good and it coincided with us being 1st and 2nd in the league and very close to Chelsea until January came about.

Stop talking about the same nonsense in every post Unique.

I already talked about the Matip affect this season. It's very real. Right now Matip is not in his top form. He's just come back from injury and he's not nearly where he was in first half of the season.

Now like I said we need personnel improvement. We need to improve on both full backs. Improve on the keepers. Improve on Matip's partner. And improve on the DM.

if our defence sucks because lovren is still starting and migs is in goal and milner is at left back and lucas is not a cb and Henderson and can don't protect the back 4 why in the game v Leicester did we defend on the half way line with 2 centre backs and no cover from the full backs and let vardy go one on one with lucas. I don't talk nonsence in every post I say the same stuff in every post because we make the same mistakes in every game. you are talking about improving our back 4 and I agree we need to do that. but relagation teams are beating us and snuffing out our attack more often then not so are them scrub teams snuffing us out because they have a top class back 4 or are they doing it because they have a good defensive game plan and good organisation at the back from work on the training pitch. a coach does far far far more to make a good defence than he does on attack. if you have great talent up top they will get goals. defence comes down to good coaching and organisation. does it look like we have any organisation in our defence.

Don't call me James wrote:Until Liverpool get better players, Liverpool will always be flopping.

We don't do business in January so Klopp only has had 1 summer transfer window so far and he's gotten us 2 of our best players Mane and Matip. And one serviceable rotation player in Wijnaldum.

Liverpool have only 3 players now that should be starting moving forward and every other player should be upgraded and the current players demoted to squad depth or in extreme cases sold:

Coutinho, Mane, Matip.

Liverpool have 9 serviceable rotation players that will be great for squad depth but should not be main starters if we want to go anywhere:

Firmino, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Clyne, Milner, Origi, Lovren, Karius

Coutinho - ?????? - Mane
?????? ------ ??????
??????
?????? - ?????? - Matip - ??????
??????

Depth/Rotation:

?????? - Firmino - ??????
Wijnaldum - Lallana
Hendo
Milner - Lovren - ????? - Clyne
Karius

Everyone else must go. we need a MASSIVE injection of quality into our starting XI. I understand that it can't be done in one window. that's just too many signings. But making 3 additions per window is what I'm looking for.

We did that last summer with Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum.

Now we need to do it again and preferably more in the Mane/Matip category and less in the Wijnaldum category.

Van Dijk and Naby Keita are great targets and hopefully come to fruition because both will walk into the starting XI and bring much needed quality.

Having 5 key players (Coutinho, Mane, Matip + these two) would make us much better even if the rest of the team is filled with serviceable players like Firminos and Lallana's and Wijnaldum's and Clynes'.

Dude, you need a striker before signing a DM or a CB.
Games are won at both ends and your top scorer has 11 goals and is a winger!

Also, a goalkeeper. Both ends.

Mignolet is the worst goalkeeper a Top club from a top league has.

free_cat wrote:
Dude, you need a striker before signing a DM or a CB.
Games are won at both ends and your top scorer has 11 goals and is a winger!

No. We need literally every one of those positions I outlined. Who comes first doesn't matter. It's much harder to sign a quality striker at the moment than it is to upgrade on the rest.

If we have a chance at Van Dijk or Naby Keita we have to pounce on it.

Also Keita is not a DM.

Obviously you are right, we are going to need a starting CF as well. A top CF or someone that is very close to turning into a top CF but for whatever reason is underperforming.

We can't attract any of the big names like Alexis, Aubameyang etc, obviously. We're also probably not going to get the likes of Icardi or Lacazette or Mbappe because other top clubs will be in for them too.

The best options for us are more players like Vietto and Plea. You sign them for a reasonable fee and hope they take that next step at the club.

If you can't get an established crack like the ones you mention, you should go for young footballers. Higuain was a nobody when he signed for Madrid. There are new Higuains appearing every season. (I'm not saying it's easy, but it's the smart thing to do, instead of spending bilions in second grade footballers like Vietto or Plea).

Sometimes the nonsense that James posts is too much.

Our defence and keeper aren't good enough yet somehow we've only conceded what...7 goals in 9 games against the other top 8 teams? The ones with actual world class attacking talent? Must be because our defenders and keeper aren't good enough and our midfield offers no support (despite Henderson being on par with Kante and co. in his defensive contributions). It probably has nothing to do with our team's approach and mentality in games against smaller opponents.

You don't replace an entire team. There are plenty of quality players on the team. In a fantasy world where we're adding new starting XI players maybe something like this would work:


We obviously need a true CF. Teams will stop playing open against us for the most part and at that point Firmino is not as effective as a playmaking forward when we need penetration and an instinctual goalscorer. Personally I still think that our team would be best served playing the 4-2-3-1 with who we have.


A true holder that can cover for when Henderson is allowed to burst forward (with Wijnaldum deputizing in Henderson's role). Anyway, we're not far from putting up a title challenge if Klopp can learn to be more pragmatic against sides that defend deep and we add maybe one or two key players that are of a high quality.

What needs to be replaced imo

Curtinho wrote:
You don't replace an entire team. There are plenty of quality players on the team. In a fantasy world where we're adding new starting XI players.

You behemoth looking filth, if you actually read my post the implication is long term.

We are obviously not going to sign 300m worth of players in one window. We will however sign around 4-5 players every summer on average. We need to make sure those signings are for the most part improvements on our starting Xi.

Because with our current starting XI other than your occasional cup run and top 4 we will not be regular contenders nor winning anything. There's a reason why we are always finishing 6-8th on average in the last decade.

So yes mid to long term which is about 2 years (4 transfer windows) we can replace all of these mediocre filth.

Behemoth looking filth? What does that even mean?

You're a fairweather fan and should stick to Real Madrid, I reckon.

Don't call me James wrote:We don't need to attract elite talent. Mane and Matip came and their level of quality is more than good enough. BUt we need more of this quality.

Van Dijk and Naby Keita are being linked and they are more than good enough to make us better. I don't see how we wouldn't be able to attract players from Soton and RB Leipzig.

Salah deal was nearly done 3 years ago and he wanted to come until our transfer committee cheaped out and didn't offer what they agreed with Basel.

Zielinski deal was nearly done this past summer except we *bleep* over Watford for Sinclair and Udinese and Watford share a common owner so Udinese didn't sell to us because they got pissed off lol.

But the point stands that we can attract this tier of players.

We don't have to sign and be able to attract Pogbas and Griezmanns, and Di Marias and Ozils to compete with the other big boys.

I said maybe Elite talent will make up for the lack of tactical edge Klopp gives his team, a bit like what Suarez gave Liverpool. I gave a detailed explanation of Klopp's problems when he took over and almost all of it has come to fruition, if not all of it. His strategy is greatly halted when teams restrict the space and the team doesn't have the automatisms to create chances and look toothless with the ball. Klopp simply hasn't adapted to teams negating his tactics.

Pulisic came out and said he respects Klopp and he was never ever going to leave BVB and join Liverpool, Suarez was willing to leave you for Arsenal. You think Liverpool will be the only team in for van Dijk and Keita? That's my point. Klopp

You guys have money but you also have a wage structure that won't be broken. Essentially Klopp is always facing the same issue Leicester did this season with teams not letting them counter attack, even though yours is far more advanced but the themes are the same.

What CF is within Liverpools reach that you would like to sign? Timo Werner would be a good shout and is a good finisher. I could see him linking very well with Coutinho and Mane.

I also think a better target man could alliviate a few issues. Benteke never had the quality. LLorente could be a good buy as well imo.