Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

Lex wrote:All this talk of deporting hard working, tax paying members of society You don't think we'd look to deport murderers, rapists and con artists hiding behind their European Human Rights first?

that's exactly who I would deport

Lex wrote:Oh has it already been discussed how that ridiculous petition is bogus, being signed by the same people multiple times under different aliases and living outside the U.K.?

Doesn't matter if it has 2 signatures or 300m. Won't change anything. No idea why people are wasting their time with it

@Unique

Unfortunately the problems that you listed are not really EU caused problems, but more UK caused problems as your government obviously didn't address these problems.

If you don't have enough housing, why don't you demand of the politicians to make it more attractive to build more affordable houses? It's just a domestic question for the UK.

If there are not enough doctors, why don't you demand of the politicians to make it more affordable to study medicine or get more doctors from other EU countries while there is still free movement? Again, this is a domestic problem.

Why did it work to have enough schools during the baby boomer times - there it wasn't immigrants, but the inhabitants of the country where suddenly lots of childrens had to get education and there was no problem with it. (And if you lack money, you can always try to get EU money for structural improvements of education etc - there are numerous funds that can be invoked if you go about it cleverly.)

How much of the money the government pays to the EU and they will now retain will actually land where it is needed after you left the EU? Moreover, will there still be enough money when the economy get hit and there is fewer tax money available?

The young brought this on themselves. If you want to stay in the EU you should turn out to vote in numbers that aren't so pathetic compared to other demographics. It sucks for the young who did vote, but if the young had even a decently higher turnout, this may have been a much different scenario.

As for what happens with Britain, I mean none of the signs point to this being a good decision, but at the same time...time will tell. It could maybe somehow turn into a good decision. We'll see.

RealGunner wrote:

Lex wrote:Oh has it already been discussed how that ridiculous petition is bogus, being signed by the same people multiple times under different aliases and living outside the U.K.?

Doesn't matter if it has 2 signatures or 300m. Won't change anything. No idea why people are wasting their time with it

Best part about it is Blair came out and fully endorsed the idea He can't help himself, he can't help associating with liars, conmen and shysters. It's like a mutant power, an innate ability to instantly be drawn to anything bogus and fraudulent and be apart of it

rwo power wrote:@Unique

Unfortunately the problems that you listed are not really EU caused problems, but more UK caused problems as your government obviously didn't address these problems.

If you don't have enough housing, why don't you demand of the politicians to make it more attractive to build more affordable houses? It's just a domestic question for the UK.

If there are not enough doctors, why don't you demand of the politicians to make it more affordable to study medicine or get more doctors from other EU countries while there is still free movement? Again, this is a domestic problem.

Why did it work to have enough schools during the baby boomer times - there it wasn't immigrants, but the inhabitants of the country where suddenly lots of childrens had to get education and there was no problem with it. (And if you lack money, you can always try to get EU money for structural improvements of education etc - there are numerous funds that can be invoked if you go about it cleverly.)

How much of the money the government pays to the EU and they will now retain will actually land where it is needed after you left the EU? Moreover, will there still be enough money when the economy get hit and there is fewer tax money available?

this is what I'm saying to you. most people can only see whats infront of them. I will give you another example. we have something now called bedroom tax. it means if you have a bedroom in your house that is not being used you pay tax on it. now in my cal-de-sac alone ive seen 3 old widow ladys that were forced to move out of a house they had lived in for over 50 years because they cant afford to pay the tax. its all done to save on money and to make room for lager familys. good idear you might think. but them 3 houses are now home to 3 very large African familys that are on benefits. so where are they saving money. then people whos own kids grow up are put on a 12 year waiting list for housing. it makes people mad. so offer them a way to cut any kind of immigration and they will take it. david Cameron and his family wont be on a 12 year waiting list for housing. no imigrants will move into downing street. Cameron and his family wont have to wait 3 days to see a doctor or 16 weeks to get a operation done like my family do. the privet schools that camerons kids go to wont be full of imigrants. your agarage working class people think about things like that and it makes them mad and they see this as a way of hitting back. no point telling these people the pound has dropped 8%. no point telling them about all the trade and big business deals that will get messed up. they don't care. all they want is to go to work. put there kids in school. have a place for them to live and see a doctor if they need one.

Jay29 wrote:Turns out my dad and step-mother voted leave, while my brother voted remain. Nothing like political strife in the family

They were talking about it earlier. My dad said it was obvious my brother and I would be in favour of remain because we're "European", while my step-mum was like "dem foreigners taking our jobs". Then they joked about how they knew people who woke up Friday morning and though "what have we done".

But .. but .. but ... DuringTheWar said me it is not true (:
The gospel (:

I can see that there are obviously severe problems in the UK - but why then didn't you get rid of the politicians that got you into this mess first?

I mean, one of the party lines about not wanting to be in the EU is that you want to be able to vote out the politicians that you don't like / that don't do anything for you. So why have you never done that in the UK for starters?

And mind you, in Germany we probably have a lot more immigrants than you have in the UK, we pay far more into EU coffers and we still have no problems to visit doctors, get surgery fast etc.

So the problems in the UK appear to have quite some different reasons which should prompt you to look a bit closer at yourself and your own politicians.  

I'm really curious what people will say when getting out of the EU doesn't actually bring any change in the problems you currently have as your politicians don't seem to have a clue how to go about the UK domestic problems.

tbh mate I don't vote at all. imo voting is like saying do I want a kick in the nuts or a poke in the eye. Germany is a far bigger country than England or the uk. our schools are full. our housing is full. our prisons are full. the NHS in on its knees. the simple fact is we just cant cope with the population as it is. simple maths tell you that the more people that come here the worst the problem will get. and immigration is lop sided. to many imigrants are put in the same areas and work in the same indistrys. if out of every 1000 imigrants we brought in were spread out from where they live and what jobs they get it would help out a bit. if you look at most of the imigrants we take from somewhere like Poland. how many will be lawyers doctors. dentists accountents or jobs like that. how many will live in rich areas. if you bring in 20,000 imigrants from Europe and they all work in construction it hits that industry hard for any brit trying to work in construction. if they are all looking to find housing in the working class housing estates it hits hard. I don't care how many milionair imigrants live in st johns wood because I will never live there. I don't care how many imigrans go to privet schools because my kids will never go there. I don't care how many imigrants have privite health care because my family will never have that. it might sound selfish but all I care about is my family. its all well and good rich people and polititions saying we should except imigrants but it don't effect them. put it this way the PM expects us to welcome imigrants with open arms. if a immigrant walked into downing street they would get arrested.

the problem with politicians is they are rich people that don't live in the real world. life is great for them. they don't care that fuel prices cripple the average working man because they don't even pay for it and if they did they are millionairs anyway. its easy to tell people to just live with it when you don't have to just live with it.

You have a legitimate grievance if they are letting migrants come in and depress wages/take jobs from the citizens already there. No question about that.

A part that stands out though is you saying your family will never have private health insurance/care. Surely you could afford that right? Looking around on the net and it seems the average cost for a family of 4 is only like £700-800 a year. Thats nothing compared to what a family of 4 would pay over here. Plus it would allow you to get your surgeries and treatment(checkups) whenever you wanted. In comparison by myself, a healthy(relatively ) male in my 20's paid something like £3000(converted from $ of course) in health insurance last year.

The average british family surely could afford the £700 or so a year to not have to deal with an inefficient health system?

Betty La Fea wrote:The average british family surely could afford the £700 or so a year to not have to deal with an inefficient health system?

no mate. the average working class man cant afford private health care.

Unique wrote:no mate. the average working class man cant afford private health care.

Cant, or won't?

Average income in the UK is £26,500(35000$) and I know people who pay for private health insurance on that salary over here. It sucks, but its doable.

Unique wrote:tbh mate I don't vote at all. imo voting is like saying do I want a kick in the nuts or a poke in the eye

So you actually don't even try to change things? It is just this apathy that keeps the people in power that are currently in power.

Unique wrote:Germany is a far bigger country than England or the uk.

Let's see...

Germany has 81.7mio people on 357,168 km^2, that is 227 people per km^2. Nominal GDP per capita is $41,267.

UK has 65.1 mio people on 242,495 km^2, that is 255 people per km^2. Nominal GDP per capita is $43,771

According to ec.europa.eu Germany reported the largest total number of immigrants (884.9 thousand) in 2014, followed by the United Kingdom (632.0 thousand).

This shows that the percentage of immigrants getting into Germany and UK versus the countries' population is pretty much the same, so if you can't cope with this the way you describe, this only underlines UK's domestic politicians' incompetence - again, nothing to do with EU or anyone else.

Faisal Islam, Sky News Journalist, Says Pro-Brexit MP Told Him ‘Leave Campaign Don’t Have A Plan"


Sky News political editor Faisal Islam has been left speechless after claiming a Conservative pro-Brexit MP told him the Leave campaign “didn’t have a plan” for Brexit and “number 10 should have had one”.

Islam appeared stunned, and presenter Anna Botting didn’t know what to say after Islam revealed Tory MP told him “there is no plan” after the UK voted to leave the European Union.

“I said to him, so where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?” Islam told Botting, without naming the MP specifically.

He said the pro-Leave Tory replied: “There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan.”

According to Islam, the MP then pointed toward the Houses of Parliament and said: “Number 10 should have had a plan”.

“It sounds like I’m making that up. That literally happened two hours ago,” Islam said, pausing in apparent disbelief.

“So - and I’ve said this before - the person with the most thought through plan, as evidenced by the past 48 hours, is, astonishingly, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland”.

After another pause, presenter Botting replied: “I don’t know what to say to that.”

Guardian journalist Simon Ricketts tweeted a clip of the moment, saying “I love @faisalislam’s face during this. He can’t quite believe it.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/faisal-islam-brexit-no-plan_uk_576fe22ee4b0d2571149cffd

Spoiler:

Betty La Fea wrote:

Unique wrote:no mate. the average working class man cant afford private health care.

Cant, or won't?

Average income in the UK is £26,500(35000$) and I know people who pay for private health insurance on that salary over here. It sucks, but its doable.

but how much VAT do you pay. how much council tax do you pay. how much do you pay for electric gas and fuel at the pump. what does it cost to eat each week. do you pay tv licence. ?? I bet it is far higher over here. rent on my house is £130 per week. we pay 20-25% tax. we pay NI what is ment to cover health care anyway.

They all thought David Cameron had a plan. But Cameron put all his chips on remain.

Never in a million years I thought I would miss David Cameron...

rwo power wrote:

Unique wrote:tbh mate I don't vote at all. imo voting is like saying do I want a kick in the nuts or a poke in the eye

So you actually don't even try to change things? It is just this apathy that keeps the people in power that are currently in power.

Unique wrote:Germany is a far bigger country than England or the uk.

Let's see...

Germany has 81.7mio people on 357,168 km^2, that is 227 people per km^2. Nominal GDP per capita is $41,267.

UK has 65.1 mio people on 242,495 km^2, that is 255 people per km^2. Nominal GDP per capita is $43,771

According to ec.europa.eu Germany reported the largest total number of immigrants (884.9 thousand) in 2014, followed by the United Kingdom (632.0 thousand).

This shows that the percentage of immigrants getting into Germany and UK versus the countries' population is pretty much the same, so if you can't cope with this the way you describe, this only underlines UK's domestic politicians' incompetence - again, nothing to do with EU or anyone else.

we can get shot of the government in each election but the problem is nothing much changes. like I said do you want a kick in the nuts or a poke in the eye. and what I mean about Germany being far bigger is you have more space to expand. we don't. unless we are willing to turn our beautiful country side into housing estates then we are out of room. and tbh I would rarther die than see our beautiful countryside turned into blocks of flats to house imigrants.

RealGunner wrote:Never in a million years I thought I would miss David Cameron...

how much have you lost or benifited in the last 3 elections. can you say hand on heart you were any better or worst by having the last three PM.

@Unique

VAT in the UK: 20% - VAT in Germany: 19%

Fuel: http://www.benzinpreis.de/international.phtml?kontinent=EU shows it is 1.42/litre in the UK and 1.40Euro/litre in Germany

And I'd bet the other stuff is not that far apart either (I'm just too lazy to look it up)

Unique wrote:what I mean about Germany being far bigger is you have more space to expand.

Huh? What makes you think this? Where exactly do we have more space to expand than the UK has? Have you even been here at any time?

rwo power wrote:@Unique

VAT in the UK: 20% - VAT in Germany: 19%

Fuel: http://www.benzinpreis.de/international.phtml?kontinent=EU shows it is 1.42/litre in the UK and 1.40Euro/litre in Germany

And I'd bet the other stuff is not that far apart either (I'm just too lazy to look it up)

I was replying to betty from the USA  mate. with the money we get and the cost of living your average working man in GB cant afford privet health care.

Unique wrote:I was replying to betty from the USA  mate. with the money we get and the cost of living your average working man in GB cant afford privet health care.

Okay, but then why does it work in Germany and not in the UK to have proper affordable healthcare and other stuff? Mind you, we are both in the EU and thus under the same EU laws with the same immigration etc right now.

rwo power wrote:

Unique wrote:what I mean about Germany being far bigger is you have more space to expand.

Huh? What makes you think this? Where exactly do we have more space to expand than the UK has? Have you even been here at any time?

no I have never been to Germany. ( but I would love to visit ) what I mean is if you have a far bigger country you can sustain a bigger population. I'm just using basic maths here so I'm not saying its a fact. but a bigger country should mean you can handle a bigger population.

Well, we already have a bigger population here (81.7 mio vs 65.1 mio people in the UK), so there is not really any extra space compared with the UK.