Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:52 am

https://i.imgur.com/ohxxI3w.png

Could've sworn we had a thread about this but I can't find it
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Post by rwo power Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:27 am

I think Britain might get far worse trade agreements with big countries like China etc if they negotiate on their own. For example, when Non-EU Switzerland tried to get a favourable Free Trade Agreement with China, they ended up having to allow free access for all Chinese goods, while they themselves were forced to agree to still have to pay quite some tariffs for example on Swiss watches.

Moreover, negotiating new trade agreements is not really a fast thing and can take a couple of years. Again as example Switzerland - they had a referendum that cut free movement into Switzerland from the EU (which is a sine qua non thing meaning that without it all other agreements broke as well) in 2014, and they haven't even started renegotiating any agreements that facilitate their dealings with the EU.
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Post by VivaStPauli Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:58 pm

It's retarded to leave the EU, then again, Britains insistence on unilaterally favorable terms have damaged the EU a lot in the recent years, so it might be better for the EU if they just left.

For the continued peace on the continent though, I'd rather have all important European powers stay in it.
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Post by RealGunner Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:04 pm

I don't want us to leave but I want us to renegotiate a deal which actually benefits us more than it benefits someone like Greece or Romania which it does atm. European Courts can easily outpower UK courts which shouldn't be happening. We can't get rid of rapists or murderes from eastern europe because it breaks EU laws lmao. We also shouldn't be forced economically to clean other country's mess up specially when we are doing so much to provide their people with jobs and services in the UK.

We also need sustainable immigration.

EU needs us far far more than we need the EU. If we had a better leader than Cameron then he would have gotten us a better deal which Cameron tried to negotiate.

Expecting at least 60-65% to vote to stay in. Not that referendum is a sure thing anyways. It won't immediately make a decision to stay in or not. It will go to house of parliament where it can easily be rejected or even bring a 2nd referendum.
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Post by rwo power Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:39 pm

BTW, how much truth is in the reports I read that Scotland might consider their break away from the UK to join in the EU on their own if Britain decides to go AWOL?
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Post by RealGunner Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:49 pm

A lot of truth. Sturgeon is already planning on a 2nd Scotland independence referendum and if Brexit happens, Scotland will pretty much part with the UK and rejoin EU. She is pro-Europe because of her socialist views and has opposed everything Cameron has said regarding EU

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Post by Kaladin Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:01 pm

As an adopted brit, i agree with RG
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:05 pm

RealGunner wrote:I don't want us to leave but I want us to renegotiate a deal which actually benefits us more than it benefits someone like Greece or Romania which it does atm. European Courts can easily outpower UK courts which shouldn't be happening. We can't get rid of rapists or murderes from eastern europe because it breaks EU laws lmao. We also shouldn't be forced economically to clean other country's mess up specially when we are doing so much to provide their people with jobs and services in the UK.

We also need sustainable immigration.

EU needs us far far more than we need the EU. If we had a better leader than Cameron then he would have gotten us a better deal which Cameron tried to negotiate.

Expecting at least 60-65% to vote to stay in. Not that referendum is a sure thing anyways. It won't immediately make a decision to stay in or not. It will go to house of parliament where it can easily be rejected or even bring a 2nd referendum.
What? How do you figure that?

IMO you're definitely the junior party here
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:03 pm

Just watched the debate on ITV, and I was somewhat leaning to 'leave' but more or less Neutral. After watching that and reading some other material i'm definitely in the leave campaigns corner now.


Through out the debate two things jumped out at me.

The stay campaigners were basically saying they don't trust the current government and would rather be controlled by the powers that be in the EU (Which we have no say over) rather than our own government (Which we can ACTUALLY vote not to re-elect)

And when they weren't coming across with that viewpoint they were just attacking Borris Johnson with insults even one of the panel members closing speeches on why we should 'remain' was one giant Borris joke.



So as somebody who could have seen it either way really that has swayed my opinion. We really don't NEED the EU (I thought as much before this) we could negotiate our own deals elsewhere with countries that aren't constantly piss poor and in need of bail outs.


Sturgeon talking about a stronger United Britain on one hand and admitting she still wants an independent Scotland on the other Laughing


EU is a mess, hopefully we get away from the sinking ship.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:08 pm

From what I heard on the topic of terrorism some of the stuff was absolutely shocking. Thanks to the EU we're struggling to deport terrorists Laughing I'd love an Australian immigration type system. You let in the people you NEED whatever that may be I.E Doctors, Engineers, manual labourers (If we ever needed an influx, we have far too many unskilled people coming here to do a job my cat could do because it pays much more than in their country)


Of course, if I was a 30 year old with a family working in a piss poor country with zero skills i'd try my best to get in to the UK. It's not their fault, they're being opportunistic. It's ours for being in the EU and letting them dictate to us who we can and can not let in.
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Post by rwo power Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:18 pm

Well, I think if the UK decides to leave, it will be an interesting economic experiment.

I read that many Leave supporters look to Switzerland as inspiration, but it took Switzerland many years (around 15 years, IIRC) to get sensible bilateral trade treaties with the EU in place, and these treaties meant that they had to agree to a lot of EU laws, too.

Moreover, Switzerland just managed to finalize a "bilateral" trade treaty with China, and they were rather taken aback what an amount of concessions they had to grant (in the end it was pretty much that China more or less doesn't have to pay any tariffs, while the luxury goods that Switzerland want to export to them still are subject to tariffs etc. - but in the name of a trade agreement, they had to agree or lose the Chinese market.)

I think the Brexiters consider negotiating new trade agreements too easy, especially when they are only a small 1 country market and thus have only very little leverage against the bigger fish. And mind you, none of the bigger fish (US, China, EU etc) will make it easy for them when they sit at the longer lever.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:30 pm

Britain has the 5th largest economy in the World, I think Switzerland are way too small a fish to be compared to us. I highly doubt Britain would struggle to negotiate good deals and I seriously doubt the entirety of the EU would turn their back on us because we voted for an exit.


I'm sure there are plenty of countries inside the EU that greatly benefit from OUR business it's not like we're a free loader tagging along sponging off of the countries.

Maybe not straight away but i'm sure we'd be back in the single market only this time WITHOUT opening up our borders for free movement getting overloaded with immigrants with (a lack of) skills we do not remotely need. We are a tiny Island on the grand scheme of things in relation to how much LAND we have, this is not sustainable at all.

Every time Britain has a successful period of time the EU come crawling in to renegotiate terms and ask (demand) more money from us.

I fail to see how people can scaremonger as if we're some sort of 3rd World country that can't stand on it's own two feet. Every time I see EU issues it's usually the likes of Greece *bleep* everything up but it's ok because Britain can keep coughing up Billions of Pounds extra with no actual return.

Not to mention from what I heard today Britain is the most vetoed against Country in all of the EU. We pay all of this money to be part of the EU and we get shut down 24/7 in the interests of other countries.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:41 pm

Another point is how shit the EU is performing. In fact it was stated several times today that the EU has a terribly slow rate of growth. Looking around Europe is a catastrophe right now I fail to see why staying in the EU and constantly helping out failing countries benefits us more than negotiating trade deals independently with the rest of the World I.E with other countries that actually have something to offer.


From 2010 - 2014 the EUs economic growth rate was slower than ANY Continent apart from Antarctica. Now the EU has at least overtaken the mighty South America I guess.


The EU is failing miserably, i'd rather not be tethered to it myself.




Even after tonight reading the views of people online Labours Angela Eagle on the remain side of the panel is getting slaughtered by supporters because her arguments were awful and all she could do was throw personal insults around. Remain camp seems to have this idea of what we COULD do together with the EU but so far it has all been bullshit and make believe.



Last edited by Tomwin Lannister on Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by RealGunner Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:44 pm

I used to be in the leave camp but now I am neutral. I don't think I will vote anyways.

I don't like how the entire brexit argument is based on immigration. You see so many idiots on social media etc banging on about how immigrants are the sole reason why UK is suffering. I want to hear about how brexit is going to restore power to UK courts. How it will revive the fishing industry. How we can improve on NHS, School and housing crisis. But every time there is a debate on. It's only focusing on immigration which is pissing me off.

Remain camp is struggling to gain support as well. Pretty much both sides have failed to actually put on a proper argument.

At least 10-15% are undecided. Brexit and Remain camps are basically right wing or left wing. Brexit is gaining momentum however in the end I think remain will win by a slight margin.

Will be about 51-49 or so. Which is still stupid as it will divide england anyways

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Post by Tomwin Lannister Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:50 pm

Sadly there's idiots who are focusing solely on this and yeah it's stupid. They are just closet racists who want a 100% white Britain. They'll always attach themselves to these groups and it makes the rest of us look bad.

My gripe with immigration is the numbers of unskilled workers getting in when there's no need. And this is from being a firsthand witness as a younger lad a couple of years ago struggling to get a job even with an agency to bide time, finally getting jobs only to be trained by people who can't speak English and they quite frankly sucked at their job. You're telling me a young man/woman fresh out of education can't do a simple task more efficiently than somebody who comes over to take the easiest jobs imaginable. It's the same in so many industrial areas. You need to join a shitty agency to get work, those agencies are run by and almost exclusively recruit Eastern Europeans all coming here for the same reason.

And fair play to them, they're using their brains. But none of us should be scraping for a day of work here and there whilst people just turn up because we physically can't turn them away and take the opportunities we can not.


We can't have all these unskilled people coming on to our country in large numbers. When it's regulated properly and we recruit people we NEED immigration is amazing. Such as all of the NHS staff from other countries that have came here and carried a huge burden.


My biggest concern is how much of a joke the EU is, it's in terrible shape and we're being dragged along for the ride.


If I hate what my own government is doing I can be part of the solution to remove them from power. If I hate what unknown, unelected people in Brussels are doing to my country I can't do anything because none of us have any say in the matter. Including our own government.
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Post by Firenze Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:48 am

voting to stay so I can still abuse my go to job centre excuse of

Brexit: Should the UK stay or go? 0806-Took-Jerbs.jpg?quality=0
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:05 am

rofl rofl





They derka durrrr
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Post by Lex Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:35 pm

When you have Eddie Izzard in a pink trilby and lipstick trying to convince you to stay, that's when you KNOW it's time to leave
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Post by rwo power Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:24 am

By the way, here's an economical analysis what Brexit could mean for the UK and a look into some possible trade arrangements after a decision to leave the EU is taken: https://www.berenberg.de/uploads/tx_news/Economics_03-2016-14_Brexit.pdf
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Post by RealGunner Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:42 pm

Not really related to this topic but..


Terrible news about Jo Cox. One of the biggest tragedies in UK in recent times.

Guy who did it got caught straight away though so at least some closure can come out of it.
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Post by McLewis Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:59 pm

And he didn't die either. That seems to happen a lot with shootings like this.

RIP to that MP though. It's ridiculous how hyperbolic topics like this have become on both sides of the pond.

And yet we're supposed to be 1st world countries. SMH.
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Post by Adit Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:40 pm

The brexit team is full of closet Nazis imo. Saw one of their posters which resembles one of the Nazi posters.
Entire purpose of euro is sticking together in prosperity as well as difficult.. Are Britain going to abandon Euro in this difficult period?
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Post by rwo power Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:41 am

I just read a very interesting article in the current kicker print issue.

If the UK go through with the Brexit, this would make the EU footballers in the Premier League suddenly foreign, so that they would need a work permit and thus fall into the requirement of having at least 30% to 70% of international matches with their NT (depending on where they come from).

As things stand, it would be unlikely that the Premier League would get a free movement exception as this would be a precedent for other industries, so it would be more difficult to contract foreign players.

On the plus side, this would mean that the PL clubs would sign up less mediocre players from outside (as they wouldn't meet the NT requirement) and have to start producing  more domestic players, which would have a positive impact on the English national team.

They didn't mention what this would mean for the foreign coaches/managers, though, but I would expect effects on this, too.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:54 pm

Adit wrote:The brexit team is full of closet Nazis imo. Saw one of their posters which resembles one of the Nazi posters.
Entire purpose of euro is sticking together in prosperity as well as difficult.. Are Britain going to abandon Euro in this difficult period?


That's just a stupid generalisation, of course there are a fair few racist types that will hop on a brexit bandwagon but there's plenty of good reasons to leave the EU



I'd rather be governed by a government that I can vote out instead of a bunch of unknowns in Europe who the population have zero say on.


Stick with Europe in the difficult times? rofl yeah one big happy family. All they do is Veto everything Britain wants to do and still charge us obscene cash to stick around and get shut down.

Europe is like that retarded brother that's in an out of jail and always turns to his successful older bro to bail him out and still gives him shit.


Every time Britain have a good year financially the EU hit us up for extra fees. They can screw up alone without taking us down with them thank you very much.
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Post by Kaladin Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:17 am

Vote remain please
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