Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

by rwo power Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:55 pm

Well, we already have a bigger population here (81.7 mio vs 65.1 mio people in the UK), so there is not really any extra space compared with the UK.

by Unique Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:59 pm

rwo power wrote:
Unique wrote:I was replying to betty from the USA mate. with the money we get and the cost of living your average working man in GB cant afford privet health care.
Okay, but then why does it work in Germany and not in the UK to have proper affordable healthcare and other stuff? Mind you, we are both in the EU and thus under the same EU laws with the same immigration etc right now.

it don't work here because we have to many people all after the same thing. if you have 10 empty houses and 50 people want a house you can see the problem. if a doctor can see 20 people per day and 50 people want to see a doctor you can see the problem. my farther in law is in his late 60s. he has a bad hernia the man is in so much pain sometimes he cant get out of bed. he was told its not life or death go home and take a pain killer and we will do the op in 16 weeks. the man has worked and paid tax since the age of 15 and he cant get a op to fix his pain. the doctors and hospitals are full

by Unique Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:00 am

rwo power wrote:Well, we already have a bigger population here (81.7 mio vs 65.1 mio people in the UK), so there is not really any extra space compared with the UK.

so you have plenty of housing. no waiting list for housing and heath care and no over crouded schools. I'm happy for you mate. but its not like that here.

by Unique Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:08 am

the thing I want to know is this. if we have a 12 year waiting list for housing in some places where were the imigrants living for the 12 years it takes to be homed. where did the 7 African familys live for the last 12 years before they moved into my cal-de-sac. fair question I think.

by rwo power Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:35 am

@Unique

I still fail to understand why you then blame the EU for the domestic problems and do not blame your own politicians and vote them out of their offices if things are so bad.

By this Brexit vote, the only thing you actually managed to do is to destabilize your country by messing up the economy and thus likely the income of the state, which means there will be even less money to address things like money for the health service, education etc.

The whole thing appeared to me as if the Leave camp totally didn't think through which ramifications this step would bring - and the real problem was that every attempt to show the possible effects was shot down as "threats!" or "scaremongering" or "don't trust the experts".

I'm curious when people will start to complain that no one told them what might happen when they would go through with their motion to leave the EU when they themselves just put the fingers into their ears and sang "lalala".

by Unique Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:06 am

I don't blame the EU for all of our problems. but the problems we have will only get worst with free immigration. my point was if you look at the problems we have you can understand why we have angry people that want out. in peoples eyes being a member of the EU means mass immigration and lots of money going out. like ive been saying most people can only see what is infront of them. the problem is you have to see things from other peoples point of view. what you are talking about effects the rich man. what I'm talking about effects the average working man. im just telling you why the vote went the way it did. the leave camp are just average working class people that see they are getting shafted.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:16 am

Unique wrote:
rwo power wrote:Well, we already have a bigger population here (81.7 mio vs 65.1 mio people in the UK), so there is not really any extra space compared with the UK.
so you have plenty of housing. no waiting list for housing and heath care and no over crouded schools. I'm happy for you mate. but its not like that here.

How will Leave help housing? scratch

In fact housing is a perfect example of how UK regulation is stifling growth, so there's very little reason to assume that a EU-less UK will have any less appetite for regulations.

by Unique Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:19 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How will Leave help housing?

In fact housing is a perfect example of how UK regulation is stifling growth, so there's very little reason to assume that a EU-less UK will have any less appetite for regulations.

simple maths. if you are short on housing free immigration will only make things worst.

by rwo power Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:42 am

Unique wrote:I don't blame the EU for all of our problems. but the problems we have will only get worst with free immigration.

The problem is that the EU immigrants usually are in the prime of their working life and thus increase the tax revenue that the UK gets. These are the ones you lose. The Non-EU immigrants cannot be controlled at all as they are not under EU jurisdiction.

Unique wrote: my point was if you look at the problems we have you can understand why we have angry people that want out. in peoples eyes being a member of the EU means mass immigration and lots of money going out.

It is understandable if one looks at what the Murdoch-owned press published. The big problem is that it was a campaign of false information and outright lies by a rich person whose interest was to attain more power, so it was in fact another billionaire playing the poor for his advantage.

People fell for a guy about whom Evening Standard's Anthony Hilton wrote:
"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'"

like ive been saying most people can only see what is infront of them. the problem is you have to see things from other peoples point of view. what you are talking about effects the rich man.

Unfortunately this is not the case. What I'm talking about effects everybody in the UK and most of it the poor people as the price for consumer good will rise. E.g. 60% of the food the UK needs is imported from the EU. If there is no tariff-free trade, how do you expect the prices to develop?

what I'm talking about effects the average working man. im just telling you why the vote went the way it did. the leave camp are just average working class people that see they are getting shafted.

That's what I'm talking about, too. It seems that people do no realize it is the workers who suffer most when big companies relocate to mainland EU to keep their exports tariff-free or when the financial services so far located in the City of London will leave and thus the tax revenue of the UK is noticeably diminished, thus yielding far less money for public services like health and education.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:49 am

Unique wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:How will Leave help housing?

In fact housing is a perfect example of how UK regulation is stifling growth, so there's very little reason to assume that a EU-less UK will have any less appetite for regulations.
simple maths. if you are short on housing free immigration will only make things worst.

Only if you're going to massively deport people, which seems unlikely

by Unique Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:54 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Unique wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:How will Leave help housing?

In fact housing is a perfect example of how UK regulation is stifling growth, so there's very little reason to assume that a EU-less UK will have any less appetite for regulations.
simple maths. if you are short on housing free immigration will only make things worst.

Only if you're going to massively deport people, which seems unlikely

but if you stop importing thousends of people you can atleast stop the rot.

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:12 am

I would be amazed if immigration actually stopped...

by Lex Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:27 pm

Good thing no-one's talking about stopping immigration, the discussion is to stop uncontrolled, unmonitored, unchecked immigration

by LeBéninois Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:30 pm

Lex wrote:Good thing no-one's talking about stopping immigration, the discussion is to stop uncontrolled, unmonitored,

Does UK leaving the EU mean that the unchecked immigration is going to stop ? A lot of immigrants just want to get to the UK, no matter what. The flow of immigrants is not going to stop.

by RealGunner Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:48 pm

Boris gave a hilarious speech regarding Brexit. He looked almost in tears. The only reason he supported leave was to make his position in the tories stronger and therefore he could try and become the next PM. Same with Gove. Both of their speeches and interviews have a lot of 'buyers remorse' around it. Neither of them actually thought much about the entire process.

Paraphrasing the best bit below

Basically said "UK will stay in the single market and UK citizens would still be allowed to live and work elsewhere in the EU just like how Norway does it... In order for this to happen the UK will have to continue the free movement of people, obey many other EU laws and continue to pay the EU money but we won't be part of the EU officially.

So basically a single market will still allow Europeans to come to the UK and vice versa.

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:04 am

So no NHS money, no curbs at all on immigration, and the pound/economy tanks. What exactly is the UK getting out of this? scratch

by VivaStPauli Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:38 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So no NHS money, no curbs at all on immigration, and the pound/economy tanks. What exactly is the UK getting out of this?

Higher costs to access the single market, and no voice in Brussels.
Well played.

England, you twats.

by rwo power Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:49 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So no NHS money, no curbs at all on immigration, and the pound/economy tanks. What exactly is the UK getting out of this?

Well, as things stand - less say about everything in the end, while they still have to follow EU rules to take part in the single market:

After more than two days of silence following the leave campaign’s stunning victory, Johnson set out his pitch for the UK’s future relationship with the EU in one of his highly lucrative Daily Telegraph columns.

The Brexit leader, who is the favourite to succeed David Cameron as prime minister, claimed that Britain would remain a member of the EU’s single market while introducing a points-based immigration system to limit the right of EU citizens to work in Britain.

British people would still be able to live, travel, study and buy homes on the continent but the same rights would not be automatically extended to EU citizens in the UK, he wrote. Britain would also be freed from sending “a substantial sum of money” to the EU budget, which he said “could” be used for the NHS.

Johnson insisted the only change – “and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation”.

EU diplomats reacted witheringly to the idea that the UK could stay in the single market without following the rules.

“It is a pipe dream,” said the EU diplomat. “You cannot have full access to the single market and not accept its rules. If we gave that kind of deal to the UK, then why not to Australia or New Zealand. It would be a free-for-all.”

A second EU diplomat said: “There are no preferences, there are principles and the principle is ‘no pick and choose’.”

The diplomat stressed that participating in the single market meant accepting EU rules, including the jurisdiction of the European court of justice, monitoring by the European commission and accepting the primacy of EU law over national law – conditions that will be anathema to leave advocates who campaigned on the mantra “take back control”.

“There is no logic of punishment or sanction but the application of the law,” the diplomat said.

A third EU diplomat said the Brexit side had “no clue” what was going on and did not have a plan.

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access

by rwo power Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:02 am

Here's another opinion piece in the Guardian: "This is now Project Betrayal – and we are all victims" by Polly Toynbee

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/project-betrayal-victims-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn

by CBarca Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:56 am

Out of curiosity, if you're here Unique, did you switch your prof pic to Churchill in a show of support for brexit? I don't know a whole about Churchill or English history, but didn't he fight hard for the unity of the UK? Which now looks in jeopardy with brexit occurring?

I could be completely wrong tbh, anybody is welcome to answer, I'm just kind of curious. Cuz if so I find it kind of a weird change

by rwo power Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:45 am

Yeah, Winston Churchill was much in favour of a "United States of Europe", so one could consider him the "Father" of the European Union.

Here's further info: http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/

by BarrileteCosmico Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:51 am

I thought this was a good article for the Leave side

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/why-brexit-happened-the-lens-of-japan.html

Also this is amazing:

https://i.imgur.com/dhwPLtv.gif

by CBarca Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:56 am

rwo power wrote:Yeah, Winston Churchill was much in favour of a "United States of Europe", so one could consider him the "Father" of the European Union.

Here's further info: http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/11/10/winston-churchill-a-founder-of-the-european-union/

I was talking specifically about the UK (Wales, NI, Scotland and England). Had no idea he was also one of the major voices in the EU. Interesting. Thanks Rwo Very Happy

by rwo power Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:16 am

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Churchill would have strongly advised against setting up a referendum on such an important issue. After all, one of his famous quotes is "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

by CBarca Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:50 am

I really enjoyed that article BC, have sent it to a couple friends already.

by Unique Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:40 pm

CBarca wrote:Out of curiosity, if you're here Unique, did you switch your prof pic to Churchill in a show of support for brexit? I don't know a whole about Churchill or English history, but didn't he fight hard for the unity of the UK? Which now looks in jeopardy with brexit occurring?

I could be completely wrong tbh, anybody is welcome to answer, I'm just kind of curious. Cuz if so I find it kind of a weird change

no. people were having a pop at England so I put the great man in my sig. nothing to do with the EU. cheers

by Sponsored content