Was choosing Ozil over Fabergas a mistake?...

Just to bring the argument back to the original point, I don't believe Arsenal made a mistake not bringing Cesc back. I didn't when Chelsea signed him and still don't a measly month into the season. Regardless of form, it would've been a struggle to fit two AMs who can't play anywhere else but AM into a team that, at the moment, isn't even playing with an AM. We are, right now, struggling to fit Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil into the same side, so how would you go about getting Fabregas in there as well?

Part of Ozil's problem is that he's not playing in his best position. Rather than sit here and ask ourselves whether it was worth not getting Fabregas back, we should ask ourselves why we aren't getting the best out of Ozil. People only talk about Fabregas because he's started the season well while Ozil has been disappointing.

But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

It is difficult to defend Ozil right now because his performances aren't up to the required standard. To his detractors, the reasons given for those poor performances are merely excuses. I do think it's understandable why some may not like him as a player. He's not going to run around in the same way Alexis and Wilshere did today because that's not the sort of player he is. That doesn't mean he doesn't work hard; he merely applies his work ethic to a different area of the game. But I can see why some may mistake him for being lazy and lacking desire.

Arsenal aren't helping the situation because they aren't making the most of his talent. At the same time, Ozil is not the sort of player who you can play in different positions and get a good performance out of him. He's very much an all-or-nothing player where you either play him in his best position and get good performances from him or play him else where and get poor ones. However, we shouldn't pretend that he's the only play like that in the Arsenal squad. Fabregas, who's so loved by some, is exactly the same.

It's down to Ozil to improve his performances. At the same time, it's down to Arsenal to provide the best conditions for him to play him. There are many factors and simply saying something like "playing with Ozil is the same as playing with ten men" is unfair to Ozil. That's approaching scapegoat territory and I'd have thought that after so many players proved everything wrong that'd we'd have stopped this sort of thing by now.

GoonerJay29 wrote:Just to bring the argument back to the original point, I don't believe Arsenal made a mistake not bringing Cesc back. I didn't when Chelsea signed him and still don't a measly month into the season. Regardless of form, it would've been a struggle to fit two AMs who can't play anywhere else but AM into a team that, at the moment, isn't even playing with an AM. We are, right now, struggling to fit Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil into the same side, so how would you go about getting Fabregas in there as well?

Part of Ozil's problem is that he's not playing in his best position. Rather than sit here and ask ourselves whether it was worth not getting Fabregas back, we should ask ourselves why we aren't getting the best out of Ozil. People only talk about Fabregas because he's started the season well while Ozil has been disappointing.

But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

It is difficult to defend Ozil right now because his performances aren't up to the required standard. To his detractors, the reasons given for those poor performances are merely excuses. I do think it's understandable why some may not like him as a player. He's not going to run around in the same way Alexis and Wilshere did today because that's not the sort of player he is. That doesn't mean he doesn't work hard; he merely applies his work ethic to a different area of the game. But I can see why some may mistake him for being lazy and lacking desire.

Arsenal aren't helping the situation because they aren't making the most of his talent. At the same time, Ozil is not the sort of player who you can play in different positions and get a good performance out of him. He's very much an all-or-nothing player where you either play him in his best position and get good performances from him or play him else where and get poor ones. However, we shouldn't pretend that he's the only play like that in the Arsenal squad. Fabregas, who's so loved by some, is exactly the same.

It's down to Ozil to improve his performances. At the same time, it's down to Arsenal to provide the best conditions for him to play him. There are many factors and simply saying something like "playing with Ozil is the same as playing with ten men" is unfair to Ozil. That's approaching scapegoat territory and I'd have thought that after so many players proved everything wrong that'd we'd have stopped this sort of thing by now.

Couldn't have said any better regarding this thread.

Guys there is no point in bickering about this subject. Cesc is a chapter done. He left us when we needed him and he left us without even caring about the club who made him the player he is. He is back in the PL now and doing great. Good for him. But that doesn't mean we start getting all emotional everytime he performs well. He is a WC player and will perform like that most of the time. But as Jay said, we have to look at our own team and stop dreaming about what if he was playing or what if some other player was playing. Football isn't as easy as it sounds on paper.

All I am asking is that allow Ozil some more time. Is there a point arguing amongst each other? Not at all. If Ozil costs us matches or if he performs terribly over the season then most of us will come out to speak against him. But atm, it's too early and things are just not right in his favour. We can't build the team around him and he is not used to playing this way. For Germany and Madrid, he had adequate cover behind so he didn't really had to defend much. At Arsenal it's completely different and with our new system it's even more difficult. I am sure you all can see how ramsey is suffering too. It's just not Ozil.

Let's just wait and see how this goes. We all want him to perform well. None of us here would want him to flop on purpose because of our egos. Put your faith in him and he will deliver.

GoonerJay29 wrote:Just to bring the argument back to the original point, I don't believe Arsenal made a mistake not bringing Cesc back. I didn't when Chelsea signed him and still don't a measly month into the season. Regardless of form, it would've been a struggle to fit two AMs who can't play anywhere else but AM into a team that, at the moment, isn't even playing with an AM. We are, right now, struggling to fit Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil into the same side, so how would you go about getting Fabregas in there as well?

Part of Ozil's problem is that he's not playing in his best position. Rather than sit here and ask ourselves whether it was worth not getting Fabregas back, we should ask ourselves why we aren't getting the best out of Ozil. People only talk about Fabregas because he's started the season well while Ozil has been disappointing.

But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

It is difficult to defend Ozil right now because his performances aren't up to the required standard. To his detractors, the reasons given for those poor performances are merely excuses. I do think it's understandable why some may not like him as a player. He's not going to run around in the same way Alexis and Wilshere did today because that's not the sort of player he is. That doesn't mean he doesn't work hard; he merely applies his work ethic to a different area of the game. But I can see why some may mistake him for being lazy and lacking desire.

Arsenal aren't helping the situation because they aren't making the most of his talent. At the same time, Ozil is not the sort of player who you can play in different positions and get a good performance out of him. He's very much an all-or-nothing player where you either play him in his best position and get good performances from him or play him else where and get poor ones. However, we shouldn't pretend that he's the only play like that in the Arsenal squad. Fabregas, who's so loved by some, is exactly the same.

It's down to Ozil to improve his performances. At the same time, it's down to Arsenal to provide the best conditions for him to play him. There are many factors and simply saying something like "playing with Ozil is the same as playing with ten men" is unfair to Ozil. That's approaching scapegoat territory and I'd have thought that after so many players proved everything wrong that'd we'd have stopped this sort of thing by now.

Thanks Jay. A fantastic explanation.

Didn't mean for this thread to cause any arguments or anything. I could have probably worded the title better

EL Patron wrote:do people actually watch the games or just spout the same shit repeated and recycled by newspapers and pundits. How the fck did Ozil put in a desireless performance today ? , he did misplace a few passess and his end product was below what we expect from him but to accuse him of laziness is just laughable.

Ozil worked hard as much as anyone in midfield, closing players down and tracking back without even being 100 percent fit yet he gets accused of laziness by his fans

+1
Cesc is the only central midfielder who plays well on the wing, but Ozil looked ok for a player being completely miss-used by an idiot of a manager. Sometimes its like Wenger is worse tactically than Pardew.

I swear Wenger is scared to play Ozil in midfield as we will get over run due to his lack of effort, we all saw what happened last year in big games.

I guess Wenger is up to something here?

I think I am wrong about Wenger and his tactics.

Raptorgunner wrote:I swear Wenger is scared to play Ozil in midfield as we will get over run due to his lack of effort, we all saw what happened last year in big games.

I guess Wenger is up to something here?

I think I am wrong about Wenger and his tactics.

My opinion is that last year we got rolled in big games because of Arteta being slow and ineffective on the defensive side of the ball not Ozil.

The only thing I'll say is Wenger said to Fabregas (allegedly) he already has Ozil in Fabregas' position, but then he plays Ozil on the wing. It's a little strange.

RealGunner wrote:

GoonerJay29 wrote:Just to bring the argument back to the original point, I don't believe Arsenal made a mistake not bringing Cesc back. I didn't when Chelsea signed him and still don't a measly month into the season. Regardless of form, it would've been a struggle to fit two AMs who can't play anywhere else but AM into a team that, at the moment, isn't even playing with an AM. We are, right now, struggling to fit Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil into the same side, so how would you go about getting Fabregas in there as well?

Part of Ozil's problem is that he's not playing in his best position. Rather than sit here and ask ourselves whether it was worth not getting Fabregas back, we should ask ourselves why we aren't getting the best out of Ozil. People only talk about Fabregas because he's started the season well while Ozil has been disappointing.

But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

It is difficult to defend Ozil right now because his performances aren't up to the required standard. To his detractors, the reasons given for those poor performances are merely excuses. I do think it's understandable why some may not like him as a player. He's not going to run around in the same way Alexis and Wilshere did today because that's not the sort of player he is. That doesn't mean he doesn't work hard; he merely applies his work ethic to a different area of the game. But I can see why some may mistake him for being lazy and lacking desire.

Arsenal aren't helping the situation because they aren't making the most of his talent. At the same time, Ozil is not the sort of player who you can play in different positions and get a good performance out of him. He's very much an all-or-nothing player where you either play him in his best position and get good performances from him or play him else where and get poor ones. However, we shouldn't pretend that he's the only play like that in the Arsenal squad. Fabregas, who's so loved by some, is exactly the same.

It's down to Ozil to improve his performances. At the same time, it's down to Arsenal to provide the best conditions for him to play him. There are many factors and simply saying something like "playing with Ozil is the same as playing with ten men" is unfair to Ozil. That's approaching scapegoat territory and I'd have thought that after so many players proved everything wrong that'd we'd have stopped this sort of thing by now.

Couldn't have said any better regarding this thread.

Guys there is no point in bickering about this subject. Cesc is a chapter done. He left us when we needed him and he left us without even caring about the club who made him the player he is. He is back in the PL now and doing great. Good for him. But that doesn't mean we start getting all emotional everytime he performs well. He is a WC player and will perform like that most of the time. But as Jay said, we have to look at our own team and stop dreaming about what if he was playing or what if some other player was playing. Football isn't as easy as it sounds on paper.

All I am asking is that allow Ozil some more time. Is there a point arguing amongst each other? Not at all. If Ozil costs us matches or if he performs terribly over the season then most of us will come out to speak against him. But atm, it's too early and things are just not right in his favour. We can't build the team around him and he is not used to playing this way. For Germany and Madrid, he had adequate cover behind so he didn't really had to defend much. At Arsenal it's completely different and with our new system it's even more difficult. I am sure you all can see how ramsey is suffering too. It's just not Ozil.

Let's just wait and see how this goes. We all want him to perform well. None of us here would want him to flop on purpose because of our egos. Put your faith in him and he will deliver.

Good and reasonable posts by you two.
I always like good reasoning.

But don't get me wrong, I, as much as you guys want Ozil to perform good on a consistent basis and take this club to a higher level. Lol why then do you guys think I get sooooooo mad when he doesn't perform.
It's just that atm (or most of the time he has been here) he just rubs me wrong, and my plan isn't to scapegoat or something, there are also other faults in our team; in some other players which I'm not blind to. But I stand by all that I said above and in the GS thread. I do not believe that I sound ridiculous. I do not believe that my frustration and reaction is based on knee-jerking and false evidence.
I just do believe that as long as this underwhelming performances continue, which in itself has gone on for some time now, we're not going to get better as a team and get the desired results which we relish. And that's all I want - I just want what's best for the team.
My calm and peaceful take on this.

GoonerJay29 wrote:But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

If you're talking about adaptation, it is ridiculous to claim Fàbregas having a pre-season for a month with his team mates puts him in a better position than Özil who had a full season with Arsenal last year.

For me it is simple, switch to 4-2-3-1, play Özil at behind the striker where his creativity blossoms and his lack of work rate doesn't hurt as much.

Considering the fact that we switched our system to accommodate Wilshere and Özil had no pre-season to try that out, it's not ridiculous at all to say Fabregas had an advantage.

most of all fabregas had the advantage of going out after the group stages at the WC, while Özil kept playing for another 2 weeks, a couple of times over 120 minutes.

Our international players are not at full capacity yet either.

No one says though Wenger couldn't bench him for a game or two though, there's no law that says just because aplayer cost so and so much he needs to play every game.

Apart from that, you drew against a strong City team, the league winners, I really don't get why it's all doom and gloom again, ALREADY.

I don't think it's impossible for Ozil to adapt to a new position, incidentally. In an ideal world you always play him in the middle but given enough games he could come good on the flanks. People are losing patience with him but he's played four games this season. I doubt he's even at full fitness yet.

A game or two on the bench wouldn't hurt him, either. Would take some of the pressure off him and give him a chance to make an impact from the bench. We don't want to be running him into the ground in an attempt to force him into form.

The choice wasn't between Ozil and Cesc... it was Ozil and Cazorla as i SCREAMED ABOUT all summer.  You just don't pass up a player of Cesc' quality for the price Arsenal had.  Made no sense.

As far as Ozil on the left or right... that's where he played before he arrived at Madrid.  That's where he plays for Germany NT in their 433 as Piggy, Khedira and Kroos are the midfield.  That's where Mou played him 50% of the time in his last 2 years at Madrid.  Why?  Because Ozil naturally drifts towards one sideline or the other.  You can't blame Wenger there.

Problem with Ozil is that he's lazy and doesn't fight.  If he gets slapped early in the game...  he offers you the other cheek so you can slap that too.  You can tell very early in a game whether he's on or off.

Hasn't progressed.  Infuriating player.

THAT SAID, Cazorla over Cesc is inexcusable.

IMO fabregas or not... ozil was a mistake in that an AM was not needed. we just had a successful 2nd part of 2011-12 season when finally some major balance issue were sorted out, midfield with wilshere/ramsey was looking good. arrival of ozil immediately destroyed the balance again, and we did not get DM, ST or pace that we badly needed. 42M price tag did not help either!

btw imo even a prime fabregas for 42M, even 35M wouldve been a mistake. we needed and still need DM and ST!

irrespective of improving finances at arsenal, we are no realmadrid or city, therefore priorities must be addressed. Arsenal cannot afford luxury signings and it was irresponsible use of precious funds on part of management.

Without Ozil last season we may not have finished in the top 4. People forget the influence he had on the squad in the first half of the season, when plenty were tipping us to win the damn title.

Anyway it was never a choice between Cesc and Ozil.. so don't understand this thread.

you are confusing ramsey with ozil!

When you spend £42.4m on a player, shouldn't you play him in his correct position?

I just don't get it.

42.4M is the only reason he is playing in ANY position, otherwise he would have been podolskied long ago!

rosicky>>>
wilshere>>>

Rosicky and Wilshere are not better number 10s than Özil.

MJ wrote:Rosicky and Wilshere are not better number 10s than Özil.

At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

SamuelJayC wrote:When you spend £42.4m on a player, shouldn't you play him in his correct position?

I just don't get it.

A stubborn manager who waits until the 80th minute to make substitutions.

Raptorgunner wrote:

MJ wrote:Rosicky and Wilshere are not better number 10s than Özil.

At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

How about we save the 'talking' for when Özil is actually deployed centrally for 90 minutes

MJ wrote:

Raptorgunner wrote:

MJ wrote:Rosicky and Wilshere are not better number 10s than Özil.

At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

How about we save the 'talking' for when Özil is actually deployed centrally for 90 minutes

I find this hard to believe that Ozil is playing badly because he is playing out of position, he played entire world cup on the wings, if anyone has been following his career its on the wings that he made his name.
Great hard working players will show their quality anywhere they play.

The problem with Ozil is either Wenger or Ozil himself. Ozil is clearly weak minded…the kind of player that easily lost self confidence, but this kind of problems are wenger ‘s problem.

Raptorgunner wrote:
I find this hard to believe that Ozil is playing badly because he is playing out of position, he played entire world cup on the wings, if anyone has been following his career its on the wings that he made his name.
Great hard working players will show their quality anywhere they play.

The problem with Ozil is either Wenger or Ozil himself.

The problem with Özil is 'fans' who jump to conclusions.

And yes, his widely accepted and recognized reputation as the best CAM in the world over the last 5 years was built on his exemplary performance ON THE WING. Clearly, just because Löw had to move him to wing because Reus got injured means that he has been a winger all his life.

I don't understand this obsessive compulsive need of gunners to scapegoat players. First it was Ramsey. Then it was Özil. Then it was Jack and Oxlade for 'not stepping up'. Jack performs reasonably well and the witchhunt is back to Özil.

People lost their minds when Park and Chamakh and Bendtner warmed the bench. A Podolski with barely any contribution gets brownie points and a lot of love for being good humoured and putting selfies on the web.

Haters just gonna hate.

Raptorgunner wrote:

MJ wrote:

Raptorgunner wrote:


At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

How about we save the 'talking' for when Özil is actually deployed centrally for 90 minutes

I find this hard to believe that Ozil is playing badly because he is playing out of position, he played entire world cup on the wings, if anyone has been following his career its on the wings that he made his name.
Great hard working players will show their quality anywhere they play.

The problem with Ozil is either Wenger or Ozil himself. Ozil is clearly weak minded… The kind of player that easily lost self confidence, but this kind of problems are wenger ‘s problem.

Reread what I said, Özil is the best number 10, not the best winger.