Was choosing Ozil over Fabergas a mistake?...

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Lex wrote:

Raptorgunner wrote:Look at Sanchez he has been improving game after game and you can see he will only get better.

Weren't you the one saying Wenger was an idiot for buying Sanchez/another typical Wenger panic buy etc. not two games ago?

I have never said that about Sanchez, wow where did this come from?

Cesc is a veteran in the PL. Has 8 seasons of experience. Ozil doesn't have that luxury.

Ozil was excellent last season. It's not a coincidence that the team started performing well when we bought him. Ramsey didn't find his best position on his own. Giroud didn't have the best season of his career on his own. We didn't win the FA Cup out of the blue after going 7 years without a trophy...

This thread sounds like Barcelona forum when they signed Fàbregas instead of Özil, except the other way

We spent £42 million on a player who can only play one position and needs 10 years to get used to EPL?
Our genius managers is playing him out of position, how can you spend £42 million a limited player? Ozil cant play on the wings, play him in the middle and we can see if he will start producing. History repeating it self wenger used to play Ramsey on the wing ramsey was not use to it and many including me wanted him gone and once he got his favorite position we almost won the league.

Raptorgunner wrote:We spent £42 million on a player who can only play one position and needs 10 years to get used to EPL?
Our genius managers is playing him out of position, how can you spend £42 million a limited player? Ozil cant play on the wings, play him in the middle and we can see if he will start producing.

a player with so many limitations.. can only be good if we play to his strengths and hide his weakness.. and what are we doing..

Mesut Özil:Would not make runs,would not run with the ball,would not dribble to drive the team and most important would not fight and just surrender possession on lofted balls but passing and being aware of others
was born with him..If Arsene put on Santi we would have won the game but i guess he thinks longterm and did not want to hurt his confidence further.
Monreal was beaten everytime he was taken on by Aguero or Navas an average performance not as bad as his german compatriots.

(a forum post)

seriously some need to stop the 'whatever Ozil does is wise' crap.. some time on the bench will do him good.. we have better players suited for the LW rotting in bench.. so either play him centrally or bench and rotate him for the time being..

and Wenger... please use squad rotation and substitutes properly..

RG and urban.
Name me one game in that FA Cup run that Özil put in a masterclass/MOTM performance. And him running most kms in the CL last season means *bleep* all when he doesn't impact a game, or only comes up with a good pass once or twice in a match and then is nowhere to be found for the rest of the game.

Again like I said in the thread in the GS. He is 'supposed' to be world class. Why does he need 8 seasons or something to have PL experience and to perform on a consistent basis? Shouldn't world class players be supposed to adapt to teams. Surely Özil knew he was coming to a league and a team which requires a good work ethic and at the same time taking the responsibility of impacting a game/winning your team a game when you were bought for the purpose of exactly that.

According to that logic James Rodriguez needs to be able to play at the highest level in every outfield position and sometimes pop up in goal aswell

He cost £42m because he's one of the best no 10's in the world and that's how much Real Madrid valued him, not because he can play every position you put him to.

You're taking it way out of proportion.
I'm not saying he should be able to play every position. I'm saying he should be able to adapt to our game and formation and the English game as well.

El Gunner wrote:RG and urban.
Name me one game in that FA Cup run that Özil put in a masterclass/MOTM performance. And him running most kms in the CL last season means *bleep* all when he doesn't impact a game, or only comes up with a good pass once or twice in a match and then is nowhere to be found for the rest of the game.

Again like I said in the thread in the GS. He is 'supposed' to be world class. Why does he need 8 seasons or something to have PL experience and to perform on a consistent basis? Shouldn't world class players be supposed to adapt to teams. Surely Özil knew he was coming to a league and a team which requires a good work ethic and at the same time taking the responsibility of impacting a game/winning your team a game when you were bought for the purpose of exactly that.

Everton, Liverpool, Coventry, Tottenham. Basically our hardest games minus Coventry.

Oh but you said he was "desireless", yet when I prove to you that that's not true, you just decide that it's meaningless. You see how weak you sound in these arguments?

"World class" doesn't mean anything, it's just a stupid word. Messi is world class but if you stick him on the left wing he will be nothing special, especially if the team he is playing is not playing well and the players around him just don't suit his style of play.

both sides of arguments are going in circle now. I'm no fan boy of particular player, I don't care about how much he cost or how he run like a horse last year. All I want is best for the team and right now it's result, that means goals, victory, 3 points. And what is best atm:

1. Switch back to 4-2-3-1 if not then

2. Choose player that's on form and best for position and right now it's Santi on the left.

Quite simple really, Ozil can come back to be world class or whatever when he regain his form in training ground.

Are you honestly saying that those are MOTM/top notch performances? We must have seen different games then. Yes, he might have scored and assisted in those game, but replace him with someone like Cazorla or Rosicky in those games, results would sill be the same and they would also have scored those chances Özil got.
When did you prove to me that his performances aren't desireless? When you said that he ran most kms in CL?
Again that doesn't mean much when 90% of the game you are nowhere to be seen. It's like Dirk Kuyt running around like a headless chicken back in his Liverpool days minus the defensive work rate.

El Gunner wrote:You're taking it way out of proportion.
I'm not saying he should be able to play every position. I'm saying he should be able to adapt to our game and formation and the English game as well.

What does "adapt to the English game" even mean? Özil has played at a much higher level than the "English game" and played like a boss, when he was playing in his natural position with Germany and Real Madrid. He was selected 3 times straight the best German player of the year, and was a fan favourite in Real Madrid and very highly thought from players and managers. We are the ones who need to adapt to him, he can just as easily go somewhere else and play his game because other clubs won't use him as we do.

Twoism wrote:both sides of arguments are going in circle now. I'm no fan boy of particular player, I don't care about how much he cost or how he run like a horse last year. All I want is best for the team and right now it's result, that means goals, victory, 3 points. And what is best atm:

1. Switch back to 4-2-3-1 if not then

2. Choose player that's on form and best for position and right now it's Santi on the left.

Quite simple really, Ozil can come back to be world class or whatever when he regain his form in training ground.

According to urban, Özil is 'too much' one of our best players to be dropped.

Özil has been playing poorly even when you take into account how he's deployed out of position.

But he is a better no 10 than Fabregas and I don't care how well he does at Chelsea, there was just no room for him. It wasn't one or the other, we signed Özil a year before and he'd already had a season under his belt. Would have been kneejerking and acquiescing to Fabregas' periodical tantrum to bring him back (Barca wanted him to stay). We're not a revolving door and we don't give players the boot to accommodate ones that have left us, especially when it would be to bring them back and play a position that they're not naturally suited to.

Having said all this, I don't understand why he's being played out wide but he does need to step it up or Wenger needs to put him back in the middle.

It's just a beautiful comedy of moanings that Fabregas getting his 6th assist should coincide with Özil having a stinker and that posts/threads like these spring up.

Give him a run of games in the middle with Theo&Alexis on either side of him, put Welbz/Giroud up front, Ramsey and Arteta behind him and he'll go back to his quietly brilliant self.

If Wenger won't do that, at least bench him for Santi or Ox. It's not helping the team or his confidence to have him languishing out wide.

urbaNRoots wrote:

El Gunner wrote:You're taking it way out of proportion.
I'm not saying he should be able to play every position. I'm saying he should be able to adapt to our game and formation and the English game as well.

What does "adapt to the English game" even mean? Özil has played at a much higher level than the "English game" and played like a boss, when he was playing in his natural position with Germany and Real Madrid. He was selected 3 times straight the best German player of the year, and was a fan favourite in Real Madrid and very highly thought from players and managers. We are the ones who need to adapt to him, he can just as easily go somewhere else and play his game because other clubs won't use him as we do.

He is playing in the PL atm. PL is fast paced and requires great amount of work rate if you want to succeed. And if not, then you should at least be able to be smart enough to find gaps and make successful passes and not pass the ball to the opposition team or slow the game down when you get the ball - this is all to impact the game over 70-90 minutes! Please note this. I want Özil to have an impact on our game in a game and I honestly cannot think of too many times when he has done that apart from early last season in the Sunderland game and the Napoli game.

do people actually watch the games or just spout the same shit repeated and recycled by newspapers and pundits. How the fck did Ozil put in a desireless performance today ? , he did misplace a few passess and his end product was below what we expect from him but to accuse him of laziness is just laughable.

Ozil worked hard as much as anyone in midfield, closing players down and tracking back without even being 100 percent fit yet he gets accused of laziness by his fans

@ELPatron They're somewhat desireless and the fact that I'm not the only one picking up on it (media and some other opposition fans as well - check Sepi's post in the GS) is credit to me that I'm not talking BS.

El Gunner wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:

El Gunner wrote:You're taking it way out of proportion.
I'm not saying he should be able to play every position. I'm saying he should be able to adapt to our game and formation and the English game as well.

What does "adapt to the English game" even mean? Özil has played at a much higher level than the "English game" and played like a boss, when he was playing in his natural position with Germany and Real Madrid. He was selected 3 times straight the best German player of the year, and was a fan favourite in Real Madrid and very highly thought from players and managers. We are the ones who need to adapt to him, he can just as easily go somewhere else and play his game because other clubs won't use him as we do.

He is playing in the PL atm. PL is fast paced and requires great amount of work rate if you want to succeed. And if not, then you should at least be able to be smart enough to find gaps and make successful passes and not pass the ball to the opposition team or slow the game down when you get the ball - this is all to impact the game over 70-90 minutes! Please note this. I want Özil to have an impact on our game in a game and I honestly cannot think of too many times when he has done that apart from early last season in the Sunderland game and the Napoli game.

Last season Özil has averaged a pass accuracy of 88% in the great, fast, beautiful Premier League. If that is "passing the ball to the opposition" then you have great standards for an AM's passing accuracy. Just to compare,  David Silva averaged the same which means David Silva also "passes the ball onto the opposition" a lot. You see how ridiculous you sound?

And if you can't think of games where he was great with us last season other than the two you mentioned then that shows your ignorance. You choose to ignore all his contribution when he was our second best player in attack just for the sake of ignoring,

Cesc fabregas is a pussy who got found out every time we played a team with high energetic midfield. HE contributed zilch during the baron period. HE is doing well at Chelsea no doubt,
but how many games have we played thus far.
Who have chelsea played in comparision to us.
HAs Ozil had pre game prep time
have we had the players to bring the best out of ozil...you know pacey wingers, and fast paced strikers untill recently.

leTs judge how good ozil is when Arsenal are playing with Walcott and sanchez on flanks with Welect leading the line.

Also just because welger puts ozil on the side does not mean that he is being played in the wings. He has a free role and often cuts in right behind the striker anyways. Look at his assists for arsenal so far. Most have been of him cutting in and passing diagonally finding Walcott/Ramsey bombing in.

urbaNRoots wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:


What does "adapt to the English game" even mean? Özil has played at a much higher level than the "English game" and played like a boss, when he was playing in his natural position with Germany and Real Madrid. He was selected 3 times straight the best German player of the year, and was a fan favourite in Real Madrid and very highly thought from players and managers. We are the ones who need to adapt to him, he can just as easily go somewhere else and play his game because other clubs won't use him as we do.

He is playing in the PL atm. PL is fast paced and requires great amount of work rate if you want to succeed. And if not, then you should at least be able to be smart enough to find gaps and make successful passes and not pass the ball to the opposition team or slow the game down when you get the ball - this is all to impact the game over 70-90 minutes! Please note this. I want Özil to have an impact on our game in a game and I honestly cannot think of too many times when he has done that apart from early last season in the Sunderland game and the Napoli game.

Last season Özil has averaged a pass accuracy of 88% in the great, fast, beautiful Premier League. If that is "passing the ball to the opposition" then you have great standards for an AM's passing accuracy. Just to compare,  David Silva averaged the same which means David Silva also "passes the ball onto the opposition" a lot. You see how ridiculous you sound?

And if you can't think of games where he was great with us last season other than the two you mentioned then that shows your ignorance. You choose to ignore all his contribution when he was our second best player in attack just for the sake of ignoring,

Again. Impact on game!
I admit that's a surprising stat you just pulled up, cuz I can recall lots of times he has frustrated me last year with misplaced passes.
Pls don't dismiss my points by saying I sound ridiculous. I'm not doing that to you. I'm just merely stating my views on this matter, and I believe my views to be right.
And yes, there might be one or two more games that slipped my mind in which he also replicated the performances of the games that I mentioned, but my point is he is not impacting most of our games like he should be.

I thought Özil had a poor game today--and I'm an advocate of his, I think he's an elite player. He's been playing below his own very high standards for a while, although I do think sometimes the knives come out for him too quickly, and judgments made too harshly.

Today though, in addition to a few lazy passes, you could see him walking and lightly jogging even when Man City had possession and the ball was relatively close to him. I think that's what his detractors are reacting to. Sometimes Mesut's body language is deceiving--I mean, he's never appeared to be a really enthusiastic workhorse type (opposite of Alexis here)--but usually he is very clever in his movements, and despite looking languid, he's actually full of guile and application. Today, and in recent matches, however, I thought he just kind of looks spent.

I'm an Özil believer. He's a great player and I'm glad we have him. But I wonder, humbly, if Wenger isn't taking the wrong path in trying to rehabilitate the guy's game. Maybe having a brief chat with him, temporarily benching him, easing him back into the game, bringing him on for the last 20-30 minutes of the next few matches would re-ignite the spark and help his fitness. I don't know.

The Özil-or-Fabregas question is kind of a moot point IMO.

El Gunner wrote:@ELPatron They're somewhat desireless and the fact that I'm not the only one picking up on it (media and some other opposition fans as well - check Sepi's post in the GS) is credit to me that I'm not talking BS.

I'll say something about this and your thread in the GS.

The GS is a pit full of trolls who can't wait for the likes of you to open a thread and give them an opportunity to troll. You say a Liverpool fan agreed with you and added more insult to an Arsenal player? Wow that's truly shocking.

You will never see a Liverpoo fan open a thread in the GS just to bash one of their own players, let alone Sepi. You can really learn a thing or two from him on that front.

Just to bring the argument back to the original point, I don't believe Arsenal made a mistake not bringing Cesc back. I didn't when Chelsea signed him and still don't a measly month into the season. Regardless of form, it would've been a struggle to fit two AMs who can't play anywhere else but AM into a team that, at the moment, isn't even playing with an AM. We are, right now, struggling to fit Wilshere, Ramsey and Ozil into the same side, so how would you go about getting Fabregas in there as well?

Part of Ozil's problem is that he's not playing in his best position. Rather than sit here and ask ourselves whether it was worth not getting Fabregas back, we should ask ourselves why we aren't getting the best out of Ozil. People only talk about Fabregas because he's started the season well while Ozil has been disappointing.

But what people should be aware of is that Fabregas had a full pre-season alongside Diego Costa. They had a good amount of time to find proper fitness and form a relationship with each other on the pitch. Comparatively, Ozil had no pre-season, so not only is he not completely fit, he's not had much time to play with any of the new signings. Fabregas plays in his best position for Chelsea; Ozil's not playing in his best position at Arsenal. So without even getting into a debate about the players' individual qualities, you can see why one is performing better than the other at this current moment in time.

It is difficult to defend Ozil right now because his performances aren't up to the required standard. To his detractors, the reasons given for those poor performances are merely excuses. I do think it's understandable why some may not like him as a player. He's not going to run around in the same way Alexis and Wilshere did today because that's not the sort of player he is. That doesn't mean he doesn't work hard; he merely applies his work ethic to a different area of the game. But I can see why some may mistake him for being lazy and lacking desire.

Arsenal aren't helping the situation because they aren't making the most of his talent. At the same time, Ozil is not the sort of player who you can play in different positions and get a good performance out of him. He's very much an all-or-nothing player where you either play him in his best position and get good performances from him or play him else where and get poor ones. However, we shouldn't pretend that he's the only play like that in the Arsenal squad. Fabregas, who's so loved by some, is exactly the same.

It's down to Ozil to improve his performances. At the same time, it's down to Arsenal to provide the best conditions for him to play him. There are many factors and simply saying something like "playing with Ozil is the same as playing with ten men" is unfair to Ozil. That's approaching scapegoat territory and I'd have thought that after so many players proved everything wrong that'd we'd have stopped this sort of thing by now.