Re: Was choosing Ozil over Fabergas a mistake?...

by MJ Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:53 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:
MJ wrote:
Raptorgunner wrote:

At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

How about we save the 'talking' for when Özil is actually deployed centrally for 90 minutes

I find this hard to believe that Ozil is playing badly because he is playing out of position, he played entire world cup on the wings, if anyone has been following his career its on the wings that he made his name.
Great hard working players will show their quality anywhere they play.

The problem with Ozil is either Wenger or Ozil himself. Ozil is clearly weak minded… The kind of player that easily lost self confidence, but this kind of problems are wenger ‘s problem.

Reread what I said, Özil is the best number 10, not the best winger.

by Jay29 Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:07 pm

Playing out of position would obviously effect somebody's form. People argue that Ozil makes runs to the flanks anyway and therefore should be comfortable on the flanks don't consider that he's easier for opposition teams to pick up when he's starting in wide positions than going from a central position to a wide position. Also, it's harder for him to come inside to a central position because there're two central midfielders occupying that space.

If he's playing centrally, he can make those runs that create overlaps on one side, while a CM can advance into the space of one of the wide players can tuck in. He's harder to mark and easier to find, so he sees more of the ball and from there he can influence on the game. On the left hand side, he sees less of the ball. For any playmaker, that's a huge problem.

With the ball, he's more restricted on the left. His right foot isn't strong, so he can't cut inside, and it's more difficult playing through passes coming in onto your left foot. When he runs with the ball, he'll get shown down the outside away from the danger area, as opposed to playing centrally or on the right flank where he can come inside on his left and get into more dangerous positions. And although he's not much of a shooter, for what it's worth, it's harder for a left footer to get shots away on the left than on the right.

This is why some of us have been advocating playing him on the right hand side if he can't play centrally. He actually played better when he swapped flanks with Alexis against City. Arguably, Alexis is better on the left hand side than on the right, so it's hardly a difficult swap.

by Wilson37 Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:15 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:
MJ wrote:
Raptorgunner wrote:

At the moment they are better, when Ozil stops being lazy and shows up then we can talk.

How about we save the 'talking' for when Özil is actually deployed centrally for 90 minutes

I find this hard to believe that Ozil is playing badly because he is playing out of position, he played entire world cup on the wings, if anyone has been following his career its on the wings that he made his name.
Great hard working players will show their quality anywhere they play.

The problem with Ozil is either Wenger or Ozil himself. Ozil is clearly weak minded…the kind of player that easily lost self confidence, but this kind of problems are wenger ‘s problem.

by EL Patron Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:01 pm

srigooner wrote:I don't understand this obsessive compulsive need of gunners to scapegoat players. First it was Ramsey. Then it was Özil. Then it was Jack and Oxlade for 'not stepping up'. Jack performs reasonably well and the witchhunt is back to Özil.

People lost their minds when Park and Chamakh and Bendtner warmed the bench. A Podolski with barely any contribution gets brownie points and a lot of love for being good humoured and putting selfies on the web.

Haters just gonna hate.

+1

Gooners even join the press on a witch hunt against their own players :facepalm:

by Hapless_Hans Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:08 pm

Amen sri.

Never seen such a miserable bunch of hysterics outside the Barca section smoking

by Raptorgunner Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:21 pm

Wenger on Ozil

“People always have this kind of attitude about him,” Wenger said. “He worked hard against City and he played quite well.
“You see a good Ozil when you watch the game again. Then you realise his timing, his quality of the pass and something you can be frustrated during the game but you must not overreact.
“When you watch the game in a cool manner, you see what a good player he is. I have so many offensive players. I give him freedom to play outside and inside and he likes that.

“It is not easy but Ozil is a team player and he takes it very well.”

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9471369/champions-league-arsenal-boss-arsene-wenger-defends-mesut-ozil
--------------------
Wenger needs to rotate players for ffs, and not force them into doing things they cant do.
I guess we got to watch the game in slow motion to see Ozil, because I watched the game twice and didn't notice Ozil playing. Rolling Eyes

Cesc 4 games 6 assists. I am done with Ozil topic for now and I hope he plays well tomorrow and you guys all can prove me wrong.

The funny thing is after work today I am going to buy the new Arsenal jersey for tomorrows game its Ozil jersey. :whistle:

Was choosing Ozil over Fabergas a mistake?... - Page 4 BxlT7vhIgAEH-FZ

by El Gunner Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:04 pm

EL Patron wrote:
srigooner wrote:I don't understand this obsessive compulsive need of gunners to scapegoat players. First it was Ramsey. Then it was Özil. Then it was Jack and Oxlade for 'not stepping up'. Jack performs reasonably well and the witchhunt is back to Özil.

People lost their minds when Park and Chamakh and Bendtner warmed the bench. A Podolski with barely any contribution gets brownie points and a lot of love for being good humoured and putting selfies on the web.

Haters just gonna hate.

+1

Gooners even join the press on a witch hunt against their own players

I never understood this dilemma that some people develop when some fans bring up the faults of team players. Then these dilemma-developed-people say that fault-pointing-people are ridiculous and they're turning against their team and they should go and support another team and blah blah blah.
Lol we only want what's best for the team, and when something is on our heart then we point it out. It's all about debating, discussing and getting your feelings across in the name of the game which we all love.

by mani88 Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:15 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:

Look at the chance created numbers! I think this is what he has to do! Create Chances

only If we can finish only 25% of those

by Sri Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:41 pm

El Gunner wrote:
I never understood this dilemma that some people develop when some fans bring up the faults of team players. Then these dilemma-developed-people say that fault-pointing-people are ridiculous and they're turning against their team and they should go and support another team and blah blah blah.
Lol we only want what's best for the team, and when something is on our heart then we point it out. It's all about debating, discussing and getting your feelings across in the name of the game which we all love.

It's ok to criticise constructively, my problem is the blind hatred spewed - and it almost always starts from some crap media outlet starting some crap story backed by some skewed and half baked statistics.

by 6unner Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:01 pm

Was choosing Ozil over Fabergas a mistake?...

I am not really sure that this was ever an option. It is also kind of hard to look at it objectively when things are really not going well for the entire club. Simply put we have not played well enough as a team to say that one person or another deserves more or less grief than anyone else. At least as far as our attacking players are concerned. If you can break each of our games into 5 minute increments and honestly tell me that we have anyone that has played to the best of their ability for half of those increments. I would really struggle to see it or believe you. Has Ramsey or Wilshere really lit the world on fire in the middle this year? No, we are really down to trying to find 2 or 3 plays from an entire match that we can use to justify why anyone is having a good game. Would Wenger actually put either of them on the wing right now? I really hope not he tried it with Ramsey before and it was a massive failure. That resulted in very public discontent with Ramsey. With most, including myself not wanting to see him on the pitch at all. When he started playing in his preferred position last year he probably saved our season and possibly Wenger’s job. So although I am able to see that it would be easy to look at Ozil, Our record breaking signing as the week portion of our team currently. I for one just realize that I made that mistake before and am not willing to make the same mistake again.

Maybe a better question is.
Was choosing the current tactics Arsenal are using the best option to maximize the greatest potential of the general makeup of the current squad?

Or even,

Do to the current makeup of the team, is there really any tactics that can bring out the best potential of the individuals and squad combined at the same time?

For me NO! We have enough B2B CM’s for 3 or 4 teams. With 3 CAMs, Rosicky is getting no time and IMO wasting either Ozil or Cazorla on the wings consistently. We have 2 proven wingers with Theo being a long term injury and Alexis. No prolific Striker that is at a level that will scare any of the better teams at this time. We lack a DM/defensive minded B2B/holding mid that puts the fear in anyone.

We currently have a very unbalanced team.
Either tactics need to be addressed to bring out the best of the players we have. Or the players need to be adjusted to support the tactics.

by Twoism Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:37 pm

srigooner wrote:
El Gunner wrote:
I never understood this dilemma that some people develop when some fans bring up the faults of team players. Then these dilemma-developed-people say that fault-pointing-people are ridiculous and they're turning against their team and they should go and support another team and blah blah blah.
Lol we only want what's best for the team, and when something is on our heart then we point it out. It's all about debating, discussing and getting your feelings across in the name of the game which we all love.

It's ok to criticise constructively, my problem is the blind hatred spewed - and it almost always starts from some crap media outlet starting some crap story backed by some skewed and half baked statistics.

I think you giving fans too little credit, it does not take genius tactical know how, pundit like ability to see that Ozil under perform. The question of this thread might be too extreme but fact is Ozil is not doing so well for Arsenal. Fans are not blind and general consensus around Emirate is that Ozil has been meh ( just watch fans reaction after every game since Ozil's back on ArsenalFanTV). I trust those guys don't base their opinion on half baked stats or media story but from their own eyes in stadium. I formed my own opinion, this poor run of form is contributed by many factors.

But ultimately, a team need functional unit consisted of 11 players, scapegoat or not, under performers have been pointed out. We changed formation, tactic but at the same time we need points, those that matter. A game or two on the bench with Santi fills in that role could do some good.

by Raptorgunner Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:25 pm

Mesut Özil vs Manchester City (Home)

by MJ Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:32 pm

tbh, his performance was nowhere near as bad as the media is making it out to be. He can do way better but it's definitely no reason to have a meltdown/scapegoating session.

by Raptorgunner Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:33 pm

MJ wrote:tbh, his performance was nowhere near as bad as the media is making it out to be. He can do way better but it's definitely no reason to have a meltdown/scapegoating session.

I agree, after watching it I think he did ok. I swear I watched the game twice and didn't notice all these things he did. Embarassed

by RealGunner Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:39 pm

Thing is that one of the co-commentator in the City match who nearly everyone without sky was listening to was absolutely ripping Ozil off. Every minute without exaggeration. When Ozil did something good, he was quiet.

This is how opinions are formed these days.

by MJ Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:47 pm

Same in Lebanon, the commentator was just hammering Arsenal for the full 90 minutes.

He literally said "Arsenal are nowhere to be seen" twice after we scored. The second goal.

He was equally unkind with Özil.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:05 am

the media environment in the UK is pretty toxic. These people just make trouble around the clock. That's their thing. Make trouble, stir disharmony, incite controversy, revel in other peoples misfortunes.
A big reason why the national team is so dysfunctional too.
Balotelli is there two weeks already they're fabricating sex scandals.

Same people that day in day out propagate nonsense like "Özil has to finally show he's worth 42m", "it's high time Wilshere has to prove this or that now", "Arsenal have no winning mentality" etc bla bla.

They don't have a clue but anything, but frankly are bullies with far too much power.
Poor Jack Wilshere doesn't have to prove anything, he's just a kid ffs, he plays already far too much like he wants to prove something.

Anyway, RG, all these pundits will change their tune once you have won the league Laughing

Just as Schweinsteiger and Lahm went from eternally 'missing leadership qualities' and not being 'authoritative' enough, bla bla bla, to being fantastic and historic leader personalities, born winners, in the German media. Laughing

by Peccadillo Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:54 am

yeah.. they just like to create a narrative and usually spurt half-truths and bullsh^t to fit into that narrative. At the moment Ozil's story is one of a struggling, disillusioned Galactico under incompetent management.

This trait is not exclusive to British media though. Balotelli moaned about British media, went back to Italy and received far worse.

There is no denying that Ozil can do better, and there is no denying the likelihood that he would be playing better in a central role, or arguably on the right.

But there is always a middle ground that seems to get ignored, that middle ground is that he is doing OK. He's not on form but his performances haven't been "poor" at all for me. As I said in another thread, he was probably our most important player in attack in the first half against city, the half in which we were most dominant. But because he blazes a shot high and wide with his right boot from 30 yards he apparently had a poor performance.

by MJ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:42 am

AW on Ozil's position: "That's a secondary debate in my opinion. He has freedom when we have the ball to go where he wants."

This is true to a degree. Özil and Sanchez switched around quite a bit in the last two games and he drifted centrally so it's not like he's been isolated to one side. A friend of mine gave his thoughts on why Wenger might be experimenting with this new dynamic, thought it was interesting.

...but here's a good discussion instead of the nagging.
I've been thinking about why Arsene is playing Ozil on the wings, (and please 'Arseneout' people, I respect your opinion, but if you think he's playing Ozil on the wings cause of no reason other than 'he's stupid, he's old and can't adapt, he's stubborn' then you might be the one that's stupid )
Anyway as I was saying, I caught myself wondering why he's doing it.

At first I came to a conclusion that it was one of 2 reasons.
The two I can classify as the Arsene-Ramsey and the Pep-Fabregas theory. The first is that he plays a player on a wing so they learn how to use the flanks, opens up their vision and get a bit of a defensive responsibility instilled into them which turns them into a great player and no one is a better example of this than Ramsey.
The 2nd is the Pep-Fabregas situation and with all due respect to the player Fabregas is, he was a complete misfit at Barca. Excellent through the middle but he was never going to be replace Xavi or Iniesta at least not at that time. So now instead he used to play him on the wings more often than he should have, and he had to (or at least thought he had to) as it was a very expensive buy and you don't put those on the bench. That distorted Barca and made them perform badly.

So which one would it be? Neither.
They both make sense but the problem with them is that Arsene isn't just playing Ozil on the wings, he has changed the formation and put Santi on the bench, so if he wanted to keep Ozil in the starting XI but keep the team going in a similar manner, he could have just swapped Cazorla into the middle and Ozil onto the left. Wilshere's good performances could have had him replacing Ramsey who has had average performances and injury scares recently anyway. He didn't however continue with the formation and game plan so it can't be these points.
But what if we looked at a bigger picture, what if it's more than Ozil?
I was watching the Huawei interview that Arsene just gave and he was answering a question (asked by GeezyPeas to be specific) where he talks about how he likes a system that is able to transform formations, which confirmed what I was thinking.

Maybe it's not just Ozil. It's everyone playing. Sanchez has played as a striker, as a right winger, as a left winger and against Manchester City Ozil was swapping with Sanchez (left wing ---> more central and vice versa). Ozil has done about the same (hasn't played as a striker though ). He was on the left in numerous games, and he has played through the centre (obviously) and was on the right against Dortmund. Ramsey has played the solo CM role, played as a CAM in the preseason, and now a duo CM role in front of the CDM with Jacky. The same thing for Jack who has said he's even looking to learn the some of the techniques of the holding midfielder role. Cazorla is already very versatile and proven in just about any role, which might explain why Ozil is playing instead of him despite playing poorly.
So there you have it, what's happening points towards one thing; Arsene is trying to build a team that has players comfortable of playing all around, so they can switch formations and positions during games and confuse opponents, and be dominant as no opponent game plan will have tactics for all of this. Something like Liverpool last season who also had a weird start. (Played good, then dropped, then played good).

Looks like a good plan in the long run even so far as midway-late this season, and I don't intend to spray negativity after all this, but I do wonder whether it's worth it, since we're not playing at our very best right now because of it..
Anyway, my 2 pennies worth, none of this has to be true of course

Also worth noting that Wenger has said multiple times that we don't really get our World Cup players back for a few months, we don't get them to full form and fitness for a while.

by Sri Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:27 pm

The issue I think he has at the moment is that it’s difficult to eke the best out of Ramsey and Wilshere whilst they’re playing in the same team because they like to occupy the same spaces. It’s a bit of a “whack a mole” issue, accentuating the strengths of one seems to reduce the other to bouts of mediocrity. Wenger still seems to be trying to chisel out the rough edges of his current team. He might well manage it in the long run, but the Premier League and Champions League are unforgiving laboratories for trial and error when the price of error is so dear. LD.

http://arseblog.com/2014/09/ozil-ramsey-and-the-system/

by The Franchise Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:30 pm

"Playing where he wants" doesnt help Ozil though imo.

Yes, he can move where he likes and that's good because him being handcuffed to the sideline obviously helps nobody.

But Ozil's strength is playing in the middle and then moving wide to overload the flank or create reverse movement with whoever is playing wide.

For example for Germany he would start in the middle, overload the right side where Muller was and then after the combination play between the right side (Ozil overloaded, Lahm, Muller, RCM at the time) Muller could make a run through the middle into the space Ozil vacated. This complex movement can give the defence alot of confusions.

Ozil being on the left and then swapping to the right with Alexis isnt the same. That's something wingers who play 1 v 1 with the fullback like because they perhaps get a better match up on one flank or the other.

Its an intresting post (posted by MJ) but I dont buy it for a second. This notion of players being able to do everything doesnt exist and I dont think trying to achieve it mid-season makes any sense. I think Wenger is just trying to fit in everyone and that leads to constant tinkering.

I believe the part about having a system which transforms mid game depending on the situation. I have seen it first hand with Barca and seen it with various other sides (Chile, Mexico) but its done by much less complicated means.

I have seen Barca (and Mexico) go from 3 at the back to 4 with the change of just one player (Busquets, Marquez) and I have seen them go from a false 9 to a real 9 and second striker with simply adjusting the left winger (David Villa) and moving a midfielder wider (Iniesta).

by Sri Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:56 pm

The Franchise wrote:"

Its an intresting post (posted by MJ) but I dont buy it for a second. This notion of players being able to do everything doesnt exist and I dont think trying to achieve it mid-season makes any sense. I think Wenger is just trying to fit in everyone and that leads to constant tinkering.

+1. Even the 11 most intelligent players in the history of football would have atleast a few moments of confusion and require some sorting out before that sudden transformation can actually work. And we have conceded atleast two goals this season, from my memory, just after a change in personnel or just after a player swapped position. If you want fluidity in 6 mid/forward players, forget it.

by Sri Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:57 pm

Will work beautifully on FIFA.

by sportsczy Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:42 pm

The thing is though.... this is by no means a "new position" for Ozil. His struggles playing as a the CAM started under Mou late in his next to last season. Ozil's work rate had suddenly dropped so much that our defense was suffering enormously... our midfield was getting dominated by every team of quality, not just Barca. Mourinho had to adjust and forced Ozil to play lower so that he was better positioned defensively to help the midfielders and he was closer to receive the pass on attack... He had to play that lower role for his last season at Madrid. He wasn't very good at it tbh.

And that's the conundrum. If you have Vieira and Makelele as your 2 mids in a 4231, then the 10/CAM can pretty much do nothing in terms of ball recovery and the overall defensive shape. But if you have Arteta and Ramsey, then you can't get away with being lazy. So Wenger has no choice but to play Ozil wide because he doesn't have enough workrate to play the middle.

Ozil's issue is not when he has the ball... he's great there. The issue is that he doesn't do enough to help recover the ball AND he doesn't do enough to receive the ball. If he were getting open and doing enough to get the ball back... i would absolutely have no problem with him. IN FACT, i'd blame his teammates for not getting him the ball.

Ozil just need to work a lot harder without the ball. It has nothing to do with ability or talent... it's about committing to get better.

by CBarca Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:26 pm

If Ozil doesn't have workrate in the middle, how does it then make sense to put him out wide...?

by sportsczy Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:31 pm

You have the sideline as your ally when you're wide. He's also playing as a forward... not a midfielder, so he has 2 layers behind him as opposed to just 1 as a mid.

by Sponsored content