Re: Arsene Wenger Contract Discussion Thread

by 6unner Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:54 pm

Giroud is Arsenal's very own Andy Carroll. He lacks pace, vision and movement. Not sure he could even take Artetta in a race. As far as anyone who may or may not have registered interest in him. If a small percentage of the people that Arsenal have supposedly registered interest in (aka rumors) were actually here we might have a world class team competing for the top honors. Bendy actually even got to Juventus before they realized that not only was he a head case but there was no way that his abilities matched is wage demands and transfer fee. Saddest part is that if he could eventually get his head fixed he probably would be better that Giroud. Raw talent he is above Giroud just crazy.

by MJ Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:18 pm

Well I was responding to Raptor and 1991's claims that Giroud wouldn't be wanted by any other top sides and the only way to prove that is by rumors. You're just trying to prove a negative which is much harder when there is some substance to at least one of those clubs maintaining loose interest in him.

But you'll find that most Gooners wouldn't say Giroud is the starting striker that we need but that he's good as an impact player and for depth but that we need more up front.

It's not saying that he's world class or that he's total cat piss but finding a middle ground which is where a lot of Gooners are.

by Peccadillo Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:45 am

MJ wrote:Juventus, Atletico Madrid and Valencia all registered interest in Giroud at one point or another.

Not Real Madrid or Barcelona, mind you, because that's not convenient to your argument but fine teams and the former two are top ones imo.

I don't think he said that we are deserving of CL football and only that, I think that with the budget we've had available (definitely over the past year, more hazy on what we had in the preceding ones) we should be challenging for every title, every year. But it is an achievement to have been in the competition for nearly two decades straight.

These next three years are Wenger's most important ones imo, I don't think it's fair to compare the 9 years to the ones preceding or ones to come based on the financial context.

Yes I agree.. I think the next three years are when we do need to show some improvement. If we don't win trophies over the next two years or at very least come very close, I will then agree that we should start to talk about Wenger out.

1991 - many fans do act spoilt imo.. you say beneath our stature.. I'm not going to keep beating the same drum about what a new stadium meant for our finances. Chelsea, United, Liverpool, City, Spurs and Everton all make up formidable competition, especially with our recent financial constraints. That issue no longer exists or can be used as an excuse.

1991, on Giroud, you took a pretty massive leap from Bayern to Newcastle. As MJ said - Clubs like Valencia, Juventus, Atletico would all happily have Giroud in their squad. The top-top clubs would also happily take him as a back-up striker. I think our efforts to sign Benzema and Cavani prove that everyone, including Wenger, figures him as the desired level for a backup rather than starter.

The underrating of Giroud has gotten silly, I am fully aware of his technical limitations.. but our Andy Carroll?? Really?... He's the French 2nd choice, you know.

by 1991 Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:59 am

Giroud is a decent squad player, but as I said, not good enough to be a first choice cf at any top club as he has been here for the past 2 years.

by MJ Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:28 am

Don't think many will or have argued that Giroud should have been without competition over the past two years. It's actually been the opposite, it's been a known fact that we've needed a striker for some time. It will serve to make Giroud play better as well, knowing that his time will be more limited on the pitch.

by 6unner Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:27 pm

Biggest issue I see is how many squad CF do we need. Giroud is not going to instantly acquire pace, control or accuracy. As I said day one og him becoming a Gunner Welbeck will be a better option than Giroud. But what we have with him is really down to a player who's abilities have been questioned by three managers in three years. Sir Alex did not think highly enough of him to give more time opting instead to buy RVP. Moyes just flat would not play him. Van Gall gave him away to a rival at a ridiculously low fee. Deemed surplus not only through the purchase of Falcao, if stories are correct he was also going to be further demoted do to a promotion from the academy. Then we have Sanogo along with our other youth prospects. In the end if Welbz does not come good as a #1 CF. Then we are stuck with a bench full of squad CF with limited resale eating up the valuable resources needed to bring in the #1 CF that we will need.

I just do not understand extending contracts of non key players before you have to. With squad or impact players being non-key.

by 1991 Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:38 pm

"Arsene Wenger, we want you to stay" got it's annual airing from the Chelsea fans at Stamford Bridge. Says it all.

by Nedved Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:48 pm

You guys need a Destroyer(Vieira like) and a Coach. You are good. Smile

by MJ Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:00 pm

Unreal that this gets a matchly bump.

by Chumlum Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:12 pm

The kneejerk echo chamber gets hard to bear. A bad patch of form, or a repetitive problem left unfixed against the same big teams, and everyone develops amnesia about all the good things he's done, and how he's also made some improvements on precisely some of the points people used to nail to him (e.g., his alleged cheapness). But then ... one or two good results and a well-worked goal or two, and everyone forgets & forgives him.

He is, and always will be, a great manager whose overall tenure at Arsenal will prove to be highly positive and the long-term foundations he's put into place should never be overlooked.

Unfortunately he's also capable of some real nutty decisions and he doesn't seem to be the greatest at helping motivate his squad or certain key players out of slumps. So it gets frustrating to watch. And I hate that Mourinho has this bogey effect on him.

The hyperbolic vacillating opinions after each result are just exhausting though.

by 1991 Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:44 pm

Knee Jerk? Laughing

The same criticisms that were said way back in the 08/09 season, 6 YEARS AGO, still apply now. That's anything but Knee Jerk & that's exactly why possibly our greatest manager of all time has become more & more unpopular the further & further he get's away from his glory days, and make no mistake about it, the glory days are firmly behind him. In this regard, if anyone's knee jerk here it's the Wenger supporter's. As i said in another thread, a few wins against Hull, Sunderland & some other shite and they'll actually be claiming Wenger can still win the league Laughing

The longer he continues the more tainted his overall tenure at Arsenal becomes.

by 6unner Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:47 pm

Same poor tactics.

Same poor formation.

Plays some of the best players away from their preferred position making them look average at best.

Seems to lack and understanding of modern football and team chemistry.

Has lost his ability to evaluate the needs of the team, motivate the players or even create world class players.

Yea I can not figure out why this thread continues to get bumped.
I am actually trying to figure out now if Wenger is actually trying to win! Or is he trying to prove everyone wrong by continuing with something that has not worked.

by 1991 Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:08 pm

MJ wrote:Unreal that this gets a matchly bump.

Why isit unreal? Isit unreal we still have some fans that are not passively accepting of mediocrity? That we have a problem with the club paying a ridiculous salary to a washed up inadequate manager?

Why wouldn't this thread get bumped when we're consistently proved right? I've been right for the last 6 years so I'm pretty sure I will be for the next 3 too. I can guarantee that at the end of his contract, 3 years from now my opinion that he should not have been given a new contract on the basis of not being able to win a major trophy will be proven correct.

And just as predictable as Wenger's fails are, so will be the fact that there will be no shortage of fools who still buy into the 4th place trophy myth

by MJ Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:43 pm

If that were the case, that you were consistently proven right, then all of the posts you'd made when this thread was relevant (when Wenger signed) would stand true... match after match... Which would beg the question as to why you're still bumping it if you're not contributing anything new lol

by Raptorgunner Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:03 pm

No point even bumping this thread, Wenger has no ambition and is a lost cause.

We have 0% chance of winning UCL, 0% chance of winning league. I have no interest in watching Arsenal games anymore as long as Wenger is in charge.

18 years experience manager don’t know how to adapt to the EPL and bring out the best of his squad.

by Kick Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:11 am

I have an honest question for Arsenal fans. I do not mean to troll, insult or gloat. This question is more spurred on by the constant bumping of this thread rather than the result today.

At what point should Wenger leave?
And when he does, who replaces him? Obviously you don't want to have the same problems as Utd.

by VendettaRed07 Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:47 am

He will leave when he wants, no one will sack him. Probably after his three year deal runs out hell hang it up

So its hard to say who will replace him. You never know who will be available, or who will seem qualified or desirable that many years from now.

by Kick Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:53 am

VendettaRed07 wrote:He will leave when he wants, no one will sack him. Probably after his three year deal runs out hell hang it up

So its hard to say who will replace him. You never know who will be available, or who will seem qualified or desirable that many years from now.

Regardless of results? Not that Arsenal are in a crisis. I honestly think it's been a bit blown out by some fans.

But there hasn't been any improvement in recent seasons, while Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have all shown improvement over time. (Even though they have regressed more than Arsenal at times, too.)

by MJ Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:11 am

Pointless to speculate and call for his head, he's leaving on his own terms whether we like it or not. Would prefer to see someone with a similar mentality, looking to implement an attractive style of football and adhere to our philosophy. Guardiola, Klopp may seem unrealistic but perhaps less so in three years. Roberto Martinez comes to mind, depending on how he does with Everton in that time.

But in typical Wenger fashion he'll probably appoint some 17-year-old Paraguayan with loads of potential. #banter

Anyway I don't think Spurs have improved at all nor do I think Liverpool have beyond the last year and I genuinely think we've made big strides having signed Özil, Sanchez and won two trophies within the space of a year.

We can do far better, we should have done better in the summer transfer window but it's much better than the seasons before where we'd hope Arsenal would limp home with a C+. Now our standards are higher and with good reason.

Clubs like City and Chelsea had their time to invest heavily in their squad, we've only (from what I know) had the funds to do that over the past year and have made improvements but there's still much more to do.

by Kick Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:44 am

If we look back over the past four years, Chelsea dropped before picking back up. Liverpool went from a 7th place team to Title contenders, Spurs have been in and around the CL. Utd have dropped over, City have improved overall. While Arsenal have stayed relatively stable around 4th.

I don't disagree you're improving but Arsenal have been far worse in terms of transfers than City or Chelsea.

I do find the whole situation very interesting because I know a lot of clubs would act very differently (If he were Chelsea manager, he'd be long gone by now, for example) and there seems to be a split opinion on whether he should continue or not.

by MJ Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:53 am

Liverpool were only title contenders last season, they've improved but my argument is that so have we in the last season. We were better off than they were in the past 6-7 years in terms of always finishing in the top 4 so that's why their improvement may seem more drastic but it's whether they can finish in the top 4 this season again that will determine if they really have improved.

And Spurs have been consistently just outside of CL, I haven't seen any change in that in some time.

But whether the improvement on our part is happening fast enough is the issue people are debating.

I would never compare Wenger to a Chelsea manager as no Chelsea manager ever had anything but a blank check/a great squad already available whereas Wenger had to build a stadium. Watch how difficult it's going to be for Liverpool/Spurs even Chelsea if/when they decide to expand or move to a new stadium. It requires patience and financial prudence for the entire club as a whole. That's why I wouldn't judge the 8 years we had financial constraints on us. I'd judge these coming years. Besides, Chelsea are the most trigger-happy manager-sacking club in the league, rivaled by Spurs, so that comparison doesn't yield much perspective.

Whether Wenger should have bowed out after the FA Cup is up for debate and will only be answered when he leaves, really. Because right now it's been two months and people have reached a verdict on a long term plan which I find a bit silly. There's definitely criticisms to be made and things that could have been done differently but for the people whose opinions change from kickoff to fulltime...

by Chumlum Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:37 pm

Improvements?

Last season was actually an improvement from the previous five or so years. The club won the FA Cup, plus led the league for most of the season (i.e., Arsenal put up a title challenge of at least some substance, even if it dropped off in the last months). And though we finished fourth--cue sarcastic "top 4 is a trophy" comments--keep in mind that the top four was extremely close last year and points-wise the squad was closer to the top than it has been in a long time. Last season was a good achievement. Not phenomenal. But good. A step forward by any reasonable standards.

To me the issue is why we aren't building on that foundation now, as we should. I think Wenger wants to squeeze in Wilshere, Ramsey, Mesut, and Cazorla and instead it should just be a matter of 4-2-3-1 and rotation. Keep it simple, and exploit the directness & pace that Welbeck and Alexis now bring into the side to complement the guile & creativity. That plus the biggest mistake of the transfer window, which was leaving defense so, so, so light. I'm very disappointed in that regard.

I can understand people who say, "Wenger, I respect you but I think it's best for both if he and the club part ways." I don't understand people who have so much venom for Wenger that they seem to no longer love the game or even want to see Arsenal win. (Not saying that those people are necessarily part of GL ... but obviously, they exist.)

That 17-year-old Paraguayan manager will blow us all away though, when he succeeds Wenger. He's going to be better than a secret mutant lovechild between Klopp and Martinez.

by Kick Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:38 pm

So would further domestic cup success be enough for Arsenal fans or does Arsenal needs to be serious PL/CL contenders to satisfy the fans?

by Sri Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:14 pm

Kick wrote:So would further domestic cup success be enough for Arsenal fans or does Arsenal needs to be serious PL/CL contenders to satisfy the fans?

Rome was not built in one day.

by Sri Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:16 pm

To add: Fans today are fickle. Even if you win CL and then have a string of bad results in the next season, there would already be a 'XYZ Sack Watch' thread in GL/GS. Fans outside GL are no different in their mood-swing-pendulum nature.

by 6unner Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:57 pm

Kick wrote:So would further domestic cup success be enough for Arsenal fans or does Arsenal needs to be serious PL/CL contenders to satisfy the fans?

That is a good question.
I would say that there was a time when it would have been. 18 years ago when Wenger first got to Arsenal I am sure it was. Since then the EPL, CL and football in general has become a much bigger international sensation. Even on these boards there are followers from all around the world. I would say that for supporters as a whole, "English" supporters would be a fairly small portion of the totality. They will be a small portion of merchandise sales, a small portion television revenue and a small portion of marketing dollars as a whole. For these reasons do the domestic cups of any league mean much anymore. Do not get me wrong they are always "nice to have" but from the international perspective I am not really sure that they have the same meaning. The CL title is the pinnacle, the peak of the mountain. The EPL title would be the plateau right below the mountain top. With the FA cup, CC, Community Shield and other domestic honors in the valley at the base of the mountain. The FA does not even treat it as the most important game of the day. Last year during Arsenals semi final game was a more important game in the EPL. The match between manc and liverpool. If the FA did not think of the FA Cup as a second tier domestic cup then they should not schedule any other games at the same time.
Because of this for me not being English. The domestic cups are nice to have but realistically not what I would base success on. In addition lets be honest, None of the top clubs actually start a season basing their success on domestic cups. They play most games up to the finals with squads based on subs and youth. With the perception of "if we win great if we loose who cares".

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