Re: God Thread, Pt. III

[The Messiah]

Well, his understanding stems from studying the oldest available written texts of the Bible and comparing of them to other texts. (He does read and understand Old Greek, Old Hebrew and a couple more old and modern languages, btw).

BTW, you are aware that during the First Council of Nicaea a couple of people in power (Emperor Constantine I plus a couple of bishops) sifted through all of the biblical texts that they could get their hands on and then just decided which they found fitting for the "official" version of the bible and which not?

They also set down a couple of doctrines they found fitting, just as they set up what they wanted to have as Creed.

So the contents of the Bible were more or less decided on the whim of that Council by taking up certain texts and throwing out others. Nonetheless, the editors weren't really thorough and still kept some contradicting passages, for example the creation of man and woman.

BTW, if you now claim that you know as you read some current translation of the Bible, you should be aware that each translation modifies a source. It is virtually impossible to translate a text 1:1 as there are always different cultural references, word fields and associations connected with the words. So every current translation of the Bible cannot be identical with the sources, which of course will also differ between the oral tradition and the first written down texts.

(BTW, the project I helped with was for scanning those old texts with an OCR program!)

From virgin Mary to this and yet you refused to answer my question.


Your writing are full of ignorant facts that were first broadcast on discovery channel..


I watched that documentary," banned from the bible", although I am not a Christian I just know it's just some people trying to make a few bucks, so they came up with that documentary.

[rwo power]

That is your belief. I prefer to consider facts, though.

[zizzle]

Dude, really, learn evolution. Educate and teach yourself.
Humans, indeed come from fishes, not current fishes, but from a common ancestor, milion of years ago. We necessarily come from fishes as there's plenty of evidence that Land was not populated by animals until some 440 milion years ago.

Current whales have a remant of legs, which you can see here:


So they obviously come from a legged creature. There are fossils of legged whale ancestors:


Snakes also have vestigial limbs, because ALL animals come from the first fishes that ventured out of water and were tetrapods (had four limbs evolved from their 4 fins).
How do you explain whales not being descendants of earth creatures if they can't breath underwater? How stupid that there are thousands, milions, of living creatures that can breathe underwater but God created some idiotic whales that have to breathe like other mammals do. What a prankster this god.
.

Oh man, this makes so much sense! I bet whales would have been able to do soooo much with those tiny legs of theirs, same as human do with their tails. Talk about an evolutionary advantage eh? Evolution from a common ancestor is so extremely irrational it's hard to even get my head around it.

Again similar to how fishes turned into men, which was fed to 5 thousand men, (meaning we are all cannibals because we now eat animal that we are of the-same ancestor) Here is another whale of a tale from the folks who brought you piltdown man and so many other chimera found in the dogma of evolution - - - fairy tales to help atheists make it through the night without God.


Yes indeed Whales evolved from Bears and they did at one time walked the land. There's a little know fact that "Ancient Aliens" about 40,000,001 years ago stopped-off on plant Earth to celebrate Thanksgiving. (leaving behind many evidence, such as all the great pyramid all over the world and also breaking the noses of all ancient artifact so as to cover the truth,which again serves their purpose, BREAKING NOSES OF MOST ANCIENT STATUES) Hungry from their travels, they ate all the Whale Legs...ignoring those Whales that did not have "legs". Thus the term "Whale of a good dinner". It's true look it up. : MONEY MONGERS.)

I hate to break it down to you man but currently more evidence supports evolution than creationism. You can argue against evolution all you want, in fact there are many scientific arguements that can be used against the theory of evolution, but non of these arguements prove tha evolution is wrong, they merly sugest that the theory is incomplete.

If you reject evolution purely because you think it contradicts with your beliefs then you might find comfort in Intelligent Design, which is somehow a hybrid between creationism and evolution

[The Messiah]

I believe there is a Supreme being, who created the universe and steadily maintains it.


Evolution doesn't disprove a supreme being, religion doesn't prove it neither it just explain some part of it the best it can.



There is no way someone will come to me and tell me that there is no supreme being who created all this intelligent/beautiful design and who has been maintaining everything.

I don't believe God came to the world as man, I also do not even believe that God may or may not have physical appearance, his existence is something our brain can not fully understand for now, it's comparable to an embryo in the mothers womb, there's is no way it could have understand the existence of it's father, but the cells nevertheless developed all it's features as instructed by the fathers/mothers genes.


I mean there's no way an embryo could have even tell or prove the existence of the moon or sun, but it was in existence and you can see how our eyes and other feature were preparing for everything in the outside world, meaning there was some sort of intelligent activities going on in our mothers womb


To cut this long story short, What I am trying to say, is that there are too many evidence of existence of a supreme being, all this things did not come about by chances.

[zizzle]

It seem to me that you need to disprove evolution to prove there's a god when in fact both concepts can coexist just fine..

[The Messiah]

It seem to me that you need to disprove evolution to prove there's a god when in fact both concepts can coexist just fine..

I understand both concept can coexist, I understand a supreme being could have created different being through evolution.


But that doesn't mean I should believe in evolution because it can coexist with supreme being who fashioned everything.


Evolution to me are made up lies, I believe there is possibilities of other creatures who existed before us or coexisted with us, some of them have all been wiped out as a specie however they left behind their fossils, some are similar to us and other are not.

How can I believe in evolution when no one has gone back in time to 5million years to make all the necessary observation. I failed to understand it, especially after watching all those made to believe evolution documentary, the way they put it as if to say they were there when it happened. it sound too interesting to me and if I may add I enjoy watching it, I can't deny that fact, just like how I enjoy watching Lord of the Rings, Avatar or God must be crazy.


I don't believe in evolution, call me stupid or whatever you like but as far as I am concerned evolution are mere theory that can be debunked by a more advance civilisation, hopefully when we finally find ways to manipulate time.


Like I said, at some point, we all thought the universe was static, until a more advance generation with better understanding came to debunk it, who even knowns, maybe the universe is indeed static or maybe there is nothing like the universe at all.

[Cruijf]

Anyway, discussing God is useless; God is a fact and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not!

If I said that, what would you feel? Annoyance? Anger? Bemusement? Enter my world.

No matter how likely Evolution is, it's not a scientific fact yet. So no double standards please. Everything you say must be based on valid scientific proof.

[VivaStPauli]

How can I believe in evolution when no one has gone back in time to 5million years to make all the necessary observation.

How can you believe in creationism, when you didn't go back in time 6000 years to watch god do it?

How can you believe in the holy Quran when you didn't go back in time 1500 years and watch Mohammed write it?

How can you believe in your great-great-grandfather when he died before you were born?

How can you believe in the Roman Empire when you weren't there when the Romans conquered the mediterranean?

How can you believe in the existence of the Dodo if they're extinct now?

I failed to understand it

Yeah...

[free_cat]

How can I believe that we came from fishes, of wish the only evidence are fossils, there was a time science made people believe the universe was static, I am not trying to question science, but we all know science change every now and then, how about if this fossils and all this theories are just BS, just like our previous take on the universe being static..

Dude, what you mention about a static universe it's hardly a critic to Science. It's actually a compliment, as that's how Science works. It's constantly being revised and if possible improved. No scientific theory is ever considered 100% accurate, that's why evolution is called a "theory" although it's clearly a fact, because as all scientific theories, it's constantly revised and improved. If a theory is proven wrong, it's trashed for a new theory that has better evidence in it's favour.

On the other side, there's religious believes like yours. They don't care about evidence, they claim to be the perfect truth and they are unchanged for centuries flying in the face of evidence, cultural change, discoveries, etc.

The discovery of evolution changed the world as few other scientific discoveries have ever done. Before that, the answer to almost everything was "God". Why do Giraffes have long necks?? God. Why do whales have remmants of legs? God. After that, the puzzle started to fit in and we could deduct, supported by evidence, how current animals, plants and us came to be. One of the greatest misteryes ever, life, it's almost unraveled.

If you are a smart person, which you seem to be, it's quite sad that you choose ignorance.

[free_cat]

Humans are near perfection, the only perfect being is God who created everything in the Universe and Whales didn't evolved from bears, neither did humans from fishes, this are all made up lies for sheeples to follow.

Dude, really, learn evolution. Educate and teach yourself.
Humans, indeed come from fishes, not current fishes, but from a common ancestor, milion of years ago. We necessarily come from fishes as there's plenty of evidence that Land was not populated by animals until some 440 milion years ago.

Current whales have a remant of legs, which you can see here:


So they obviously come from a legged creature. There are fossils of legged whale ancestors:


Snakes also have vestigial limbs, because ALL animals come from the first fishes that ventured out of water and were tetrapods (had four limbs evolved from their 4 fins).
How do you explain whales not being descendants of earth creatures if they can't breath underwater? How stupid that there are thousands, milions, of living creatures that can breathe underwater but God created some idiotic whales that have to breathe like other mammals do. What a prankster this god.

Off course, now you will google what a creationist website says about whales and snakes vestigial limbs, and you will vomit it here, like those vestigial limbs being useful, or whales being fish. Don't bother, it's all easy rebatable.

Look who is talking...? ROFL the great archeology himself, the man who discover the dinosaurs fossil, I am indeed pleased to meet you and I bow down to your knowledge.

Like you are not doing thesame, vomiting everything you took out from google or have been told by other men, because you read it in a textbook or online doesn't make any difference.


Did you come up with that fossil yourself...? did you dig it out and observed it yourself...? Have you even ever seen that fossil eye for eye...? or you have just been digging up other people theory and putting it here and then come here and try to make everyone believe you were there 5 million/billion years go.


Everything you have been told are all lies, possibility of it is very high.


Study the world yourself and then come to a conclusion, I don't rely on anyone to believe or not...

There's no need to go around digging fossils to study the world. I've been to the Natural History Museum of New York and to several other museums that have huge collections of fossils that give a huge evidence of evolution. I've watched several documentaries were they make dissections and autopsies of animals showing vestiges and remmants that only make sense because of evolution.

For instances, did you know that Giraffes have a nerve that goes from their brain, all the way down the neck, and then again all the way up to the laringe? Check this out:



PS: I googled only the pics of the fossils that I already had watched in documentaries or museums. I actually wanted to find an even better fossil pic, but couldn't.

[The Messiah]

How can I believe in evolution when no one has gone back in time to 5million years to make all the necessary observation.

How can you believe in creationism, when you didn't go back in time 6000 years to watch god do it?

Because I also do not believe that, I think a Christians have already pointed out that there is nowhere in the bible where it states that God created the world 6,000 years ago. Even if it does, it could be 6,000 years in angels reckoning.

The bible is not just an ordinary book that you can just take it's literal meaning, there are many mysteries, allegories, similitude, parables, proverbs etc. You have to study it to understand it, you can't not just simply read it and come here to debate.

How can you believe in the holy Quran when you didn't go back in time 1500 years and watch Mohammed write it?

Because it was passed on from generation to generation, people memorise the whole Quran and passed it on from, teacher to student, father to son, uncle to nephew, father to daughter etc. Moreover 1,400 years is not so far off, there are a lot of documented fact.

Because I have read the Quran over and over again and became a Muslim because of the beauty in it, if you read the Quran with open mind then you can not deny the existence of a supreme being.


Also Mohammed did not write the Quran, he was an illiterate.


Also books are not just books, I believe books are one of the greatest invention in the world, because many things can be store in it, even a great amount of the universe can be stored in just one book. History of 10,000 years old can also be stored there, many things can be store in a book.


As far as I am concerned it's the context of the Quran that matters and it's indeed marvellous and I am not going to mention how it stated that the universe was expanding 1,400 years ago, when we had no scientific evidence to back it up.

How can you believe in your great-great-grandfather when he died before you were born?

Because my great- great-father name is Oddo, my great grand father passed it to my grandfather, my grandfather told my father about his father and my father passed it to us and I will also pass it to my children. We have a big family tree.

How can you believe in the Roman Empire when you weren't there when the Romans conquered the mediterranean?

I believe in Roman empire because it's history was passed on from generation to generation, we can still see all their work such as the Colosseum, also human have already started writing down things, so therefore there are a lot of written documents. Unlike Evolution, I supposed fishes also know how to write, they must if I may add, since they could transform, why couldn't they write....?


If I may add, I don't believe all those make to believe documentary and movies about some part of the roman empire history, one in particular which sound too financial profitable to me is that Alexander the great was gay, I can never believe that, it would have been impossible for him to have come to power at that time if he was, considering the amount of sibling he had and how powerful his father also was.

How can you believe in the existence of the Dodo if they're extinct now?

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I question the possibility of or founding of fossils, what I don't believe in is the ideal of evolution, that we transformed from fishes to our current state, or Whales transformed from a bear like creature to their current state.

I believe in fossils, but this evolution dogma is something I can not believe in, it was a racist theory that justify the ground for racism at that time, in near modern time we also saw how it influenced Nazism action which eventually led/influenced world war 2, killing 45million people thereby. it has done more evil than good.

Only thing badder than Evolution in my book is Bubonic plague

I failed to understand it

Yeah...[/quote]

[rwo power]

Interesting how you always apply double standards. You say:

The bible is not just an ordinary book that you can just take it's literal meaning, there are many mysteries, allegories, similitude, parables, proverbs etc. You have to study it to understand it, you can't not just simply read it and come here to debate.

When I pass on knowledge I learned from an erudite man who did study the Bible for many years even in the oldest original language texts, you write:

Good, since we are both in the same game we should be friends. My names is Professor of Catholic church and I am an atheist, everything I say is the truth and you can not dispute it, take my words over clear written facts, that have been past on from generations to generations amongst difference races and languages.

So how many years did you study the Bible and did you also read the texts in the language they were originally written, to avoid translation mistakes?

Because it was passed on from generation to generation, people memorise the whole Quran and passed it on from, teacher to student, father to son, uncle to nephew, father to daughter etc. Moreover 1,400 years is not so far off, there are a lot of documented fact.
(...)
Also Mohammed did not write the Quran, he was an illiterate.

Well, that means that it was orally traded for quite a while until it was finally written down. People may claim they repeated it correctly, but there is in fact no proof whatsoever of that other than hearsay.

Also books are not just books, I believe books are one of the greatest invention in the world, because many things can be store in it, even a great amount of the universe can be stored in just one book. History of 10,000 years old can also be stored there, many things can be store in a book.

The problems start when the books are manually copied (in the past they were copied by monks, that is, human beings, and you can be sure that there is no verifiable proof they actually copied everything verbatim and didn't just change this or that to comply with the then current morals) and - even worse - translated.

As far as I am concerned it's the context of the Quran that matters and it's indeed marvellous and I am not going to mention how it stated that the universe was expanding 1,400 years ago, when we had no scientific evidence to back it up.

The prophecies of Nostradamus are also marvelous, and he even predicted world wars, other big events, Hitler and more. Obviously he also had divine insights. Or could it be, that people now look at the old texts and interpret the content as they see fit?

[Potential]

Anyway, discussing God is useless; God is a fact and it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not!

If I said that, what would you feel? Annoyance? Anger? Bemusement? Enter my world.

No matter how likely Evolution is, it's not a scientific fact yet. So no double standards please. Everything you say must be based on valid scientific proof.

I think we are misunderstanding each other, I am talking about micro evolution (mutation and co, we can measure it by checking the DNA of a child on birth and doing it again ten years later in which the DNA would not be identical) that kind of evolution is actually proven.

In science, a theory is not a guess, not a hunch. It's a well-substantiated, well-supported, well-documented explanation for our observations. Just because it's called a theory of gravity, doesn't mean that it's just a guess.

I don't think I'll feel annoyed if it's the only plausible explanation that fits all the data we now possess, as creation is not supported by anything except scriptures that has been changed, mistranslated and misquoted across time!
If god was the only plausible explanation, I'd consider it as a fact until proven otherwise (or a new plausible theory comes to our attention!)

[The Messiah]

Dude, what you mention about a static universe it's hardly a critic to Science. It's actually a compliment, as that's how Science works. It's constantly being revised and if possible improved. No scientific theory is ever considered 100% accurate, that's why evolution is called a "theory" although it's clearly a fact, because as all scientific theories, it's constantly revised and improved. If a theory is proven wrong, it's trashed for a new theory that has better evidence in it's favour.

I want you to understand that I believe in science and science and religion coexist hand in hand, many old Muslim scholars were involved in science even before the Europeans.

What I am trying to point out is that science is not the answer to everything like some posters are trying to make it seems, science is very much questionable and nothing, if I may repeat nothing is a fact like you are trying to make evolution seems.

Look at the example I gave you for instance, about the universe being static and how science have now evolved with better understanding that it's expanding, say for example if I was to come to you at that point in time when science still understood that the universe was static and then tell you that about a verse in the Quran that said 1,400 year ago that the universe was expanding, because people like you fail to question science or apply your own understanding of the world to what science have given us, you will probably refer to me as an idiot, just like how many people are question my ability to question evolution dogma.

Evolution is subject to debunking, many scientist have tried debunking it or at least have numerous evidence to proof that majority of the current founding/takes are not accurate, what happens to them.? The scientific world never accept them, they have made great amount of money from this current ideal and no one is willing to change a system based on lies for something that is the truth. Remember Alfred Wegener founding of continental drift, how the science world never wanted to accept it initial but the evidence were overwhelming and not so damaging compare to evolution dogma, so t had to be accepted.

On the other side, there's religious believes like yours. They don't care about evidence, they claim to be the perfect truth and they are unchanged for centuries flying in the face of evidence, cultural change, discoveries, etc.

People judge religion by people who practice it, really it shouldn't be that way. I do what the Quran ask me to do, the funny thing is that even before reading the Quran I was already doing this, which is? studying the evidence.


As a child I remember how I used to lie down at the front of my house, with my back-down facing the sky and starring at the stars, I always question myself how those stars came about, I look at the moon and ask myself why is it there..? the sun, the water we drink, they all serve their purpose, some many purposes, everything seems to be in harmony and in order, how the-same water that we drink we also used it to take clean ourselves both inside and outside, it's also essential to us and every living thing and non living things around us and this is one water.

When I was in primary school I also love hearing about evolution, I never missed a chance to do so, but as I started growing older I began questioning many things, I look at evolution and I want to believe what my teacher thought me, but then I don't have anything to back with up with, I mean anything as in physical evidence that I can wake up every morning and see or feel.

But then I look at all this intelligent design everyday, all the evidence, such as the sun, the rocks, volcanoes, natural phenomena, this things look ordinary to us and seems too common to many people for us to even take them seriously and we ignore all the evidence we can find in them. But to me, they are not just ordinary things, they are even bigger evidence than all the fossils we have ever assemble, particularly since I get to see them every day.

I do not just believe in supreme God because of faith or because religion said so, the Quran ask us to look at all the evidence around us, and even before reading the Quran I have been doing so. Now I can not not prove to you the physical presence of God, but I can only look at the evidence. We must fully understand what it means to “prove” something. The fact is that none of us were there when the universe came into being, so technically, none of us can “prove” what happened. I can't “prove” God did it and the atheists can't “prove” everything came into being on it's own, so what we have to do is examine the evidence based on science to determine the most plausible explanation.


For example, if I see a beautiful sand castle on the beach with intricate design, but no one there along with it, I can not “prove” someone made it, just as someone else can not “prove” the sand castle made itself from the wind, waves and sand randomly interacting with one another, so we have to determine what logic and reason tell us is the most plausible explanation, based on scientific evidence and examination.

So lets take this analogy for an example: Bring 12 marble and number them from 1 to 12 and then colour them with different colours for each marble and put them in a bag, shake the bag and close your eyes and then reach the bag and pull out marble number 1 and marble number two and marble number three and then pull them all out one by one, do you know what is the chance of doing that…? You need to try about four hundred and seventy nine million times to pull them all out in order, so if only 12 coloured marble in order is that impossible what do you think the chances of having the entire universe and what it encompasses thrown from one big explosion (big bang) becomes this well organise and it orchestrated therein and it continue expansion come by chance, coinciding with a 1,400 year old book.


With Our Solar system orbiting the milky way galaxy, the sun travelling to star Vega in a fixed and precise speed and dragging along with it everything within it's gravitational force, (and all this are necessary for existence and balance of live in our universe) what are the chance of all this supporting life? With all it’s systems, with all the precision, the synchronization, the variations, the infinite numerations in the universe. People think that all this can come by chance...? With out a supreme being who steadily maintain everything in it.

The discovery of evolution changed the world as few other scientific discoveries have ever done. Before that, the answer to almost everything was "God". Why do Giraffes have long necks?? God. Why do whales have remmants of legs? God. After that, the puzzle started to fit in and we could deduct, supported by evidence, how current animals, plants and us came to be. One of the greatest misteryes ever, life, it's almost unraveled.

If you are a smart person, which you seem to be, it's quite sad that you choose ignorance.

Well, we are just simply knowing more about this beautiful design, because we now know more about them doesn't strike out the fact that they didn't come about by chance. The precision is far too much for me to believe, Giraffes system is indeed wonderful and I don' think it came about on it;s own.

[The Messiah]

Interesting how you always apply double standards. You say:

The bible is not just an ordinary book that you can just take it's literal meaning, there are many mysteries, allegories, similitude, parables, proverbs etc. You have to study it to understand it, you can't not just simply read it and come here to debate.

When I pass on knowledge I learned from an erudite man who did study the Bible for many years even in the oldest original language texts, you write:

Good, since we are both in the same game we should be friends. My names is Professor of Catholic church and I am an atheist, everything I say is the truth and you can not dispute it, take my words over clear written facts, that have been past on from generations to generations amongst difference races and languages.

So how many years did you study the Bible and did you also read the texts in the language they were originally written, to avoid translation mistakes?

Because it was passed on from generation to generation, people memorise the whole Quran and passed it on from, teacher to student, father to son, uncle to nephew, father to daughter etc. Moreover 1,400 years is not so far off, there are a lot of documented fact.
(...)
Also Mohammed did not write the Quran, he was an illiterate.

Well, that means that it was orally traded for quite a while until it was finally written down. People may claim they repeated it correctly, but there is in fact no proof whatsoever of that other than hearsay.

Also books are not just books, I believe books are one of the greatest invention in the world, because many things can be store in it, even a great amount of the universe can be stored in just one book. History of 10,000 years old can also be stored there, many things can be store in a book.

The problems start when the books are manually copied (in the past they were copied by monks, that is, human beings, and you can be sure that there is no verifiable proof they actually copied everything verbatim and didn't just change this or that to comply with the then current morals) and - even worse - translated.

As far as I am concerned it's the context of the Quran that matters and it's indeed marvellous and I am not going to mention how it stated that the universe was expanding 1,400 years ago, when we had no scientific evidence to back it up.

The prophecies of Nostradamus are also marvelous, and he even predicted world wars, other big events, Hitler and more. Obviously he also had divine insights. Or could it be, that people now look at the old texts and interpret the content as they see fit?

You are simply here to irritate.


I will only answer 2 of your question and ignore the rest, to begin with.


YOU come here and claim ONE man said this, as opposed to general/public , generation to generation, documented records.

Also it's indeed retarded to draw comparison between the 2, because clearly you are strengthening my point and there is no double standard here. My point which is you and your professor are 2 people, unlike a generation of people who have passed on clear written facts, that have been past on from generations to generations amongst difference languages.


You don't expert me to hold your words into account which contradicts many written document, such as the bible, the Quran, and other historical document with many different languages.

You don't really think I am that stupid, do you.? you and your professor passed your knowledge from this modern time, we can not even trace a link between you and your professor to even 60 years back. or can we...? if so, then point out the link...? not to me, say it in such a way that it will go back as far back as a 1000 years and it will be passed on from generation to generation and not something that just surface out of blu moon with manipulated text to back it up.


Regarding Nostradamus , it's another reason why I believe in jins and soothsayer, another divine reason why I believe there is more to this world than beak beans, doughnut and CNN.


Also regarding memorising, if 100 of people memorised something, and recites it in exact the same way, without any contradiction amongst each other, then I don't think that your ideal of someone changing things will apply.


Also some of this thing were written in rocks and they were inconsistent with what people memorised.

[rwo power]

@The Messiah

I'm not here to irritate. I simply state facts. If said professor can prove his statement by pointing at the written ancient original language texts, then this is more proof than an oral tradition that is only traded as hear-say.

Your documented records are originally based on hear-say as you yourself said that Mohammed was supposed to be illiterate. That is, everything was in fact later written down by other people and that is by definition hear-say. You cannot prove how exact the transliteration of the text was, you can only repeat what other people claim. As this is based just on hear-say there is no scientific proof whatsoever.

On the other hand, if a scientist takes an old existing source, researches its content and then comes up with a conclusion (i.e. the source has a word in it that was incorrectly translated), this is an easy-to-prove fact and no hear-say whatsoever.

[The Messiah]

@The Messiah

I'm not here to irritate. I simply state facts. If said professor can prove his statement by pointing at the written ancient original language texts, then this is more proof than an oral tradition that is only traded as hear-say.

Your documented records are originally based on hear-say as you yourself said that Mohammed was supposed to be illiterate. That is, everything was in fact later written down by other people and that is by definition hear-say. You cannot prove how exact the transliteration of the text was, you can only repeat what other people claim. As this is based just on hear-say there is no scientific proof whatsoever.

On the other hand, if a scientist takes an old existing source, researches its content and then comes up with a conclusion (i.e. the source has a word in it that was incorrectly translated), this is an easy-to-prove fact and no hear-say whatsoever.

Your text might be old text like you and your professor claim, but this are only claim unlike the bible which is an ancient text that the whole world have witness how it has been passed on from generation to generation, there is no much link between your ancient text and the world at large, even if there is it's not comparable to the bible.

Also if your ancient text is much older than the bible, then the meaning of Virgin of that ancient time may have changed to something else from the time the bible was written, indeed we have seen many phrase changing meaning from generation to generation. Say for example, in ancient Arabic they had plural of respect, "We" could serves as Noun but using it in a plural way to signify your respect for a particular deity or King because they are too great to be considered as plural. It depends on the particular time, when was that word translated by much older ancient people to mean clean/virgin etc. was the meaning still the same at the time Mary was in existence...?


What matters the most is not what ancient text translated Virgin Mary to mean, what matter is what it meant at the time the bible was written and how it applies to the Virgin Mary story and clearly we both know the meaning is that Mary was a Virgin while she was pregnant for Isa.


Mohammed was an illiterate and the source of Quran and link between man, because he was illiterate doesn't mean he can not memorise, it simply means he could not write it or read it.


He would recite out what he have memorised and people will also memorise it, it was a practice that was done by so many people, so there is no way someone would have suddenly changed everybody recitation and what they learnt from Mohammed, reason being that, everyday from the time of Mohammed till now, the muslims recites the Quran at least 5 times a day in public during prayer, and complete the holy Quran by reciting it out in public in the holy month of Ramada, so there is no way someone would have broken that link...Like you are suggesting.


Also I don' think there is much problem with transliteration like you are suggesting, the problem lies in translation to other languages and as we know the Quran thought us to keeps it in it;s mother tongue, that's why muslims from all over the world recites the Quran in one tongue regardless of languages, so we don't have problem of translation.


I can recite 10 to 14 Chapters of the Quran with consistence with the Chief Imam in Masjid Haram without any mistake and I can not even speak Arabic. That's how people before me did it, up to Mohammed time and that how we have always recited it during the time of prayers, and an outsider like yourself is not in the best position to tell me someone have broken that link, because an outsider like yourself is working on propagandas and assumptions and I am working with the reality.

[rwo power]

Well, the Bible wasn't written as one consistent work per se, it is a collection of texts that were more or less randomly selected by the people who tried to unify the numerous different flavours of Christianity. If you try to refute that, please explain to me why there are two mutually exclusive creation myths for man and woman in the OT.

[The Messiah]

Well, the Bible wasn't written as one consistent work per se, it is a collection of texts that were more or less randomly selected by the people who tried to unify the numerous different flavours of Christianity. If you try to refute that, please explain to me why there are two mutually exclusive creation myths for man and woman in the OT.

I am not in the best position to answer that, I am not a Christian but I can randomly throw you a question as well, In fact I have been throwing questions at you since yesterday that you have deliberately ignored.

Also what have Virgin Mary got to do with the bible not being put down as one particular book...?

[rwo power]

I am not in the best position to answer that, I am not a Christian but I can randomly throw you a question as well, In fact I have been throwing questions at you since yesterday that you have deliberately ignored.

What questions? To point out a link about the original texts? I'm afraid, I saw the texts in question in hard copy in the archive at the university, so there is no link available. Some people do their research not only by googling, you know

As for this question

You don't really think I am that stupid, do you.?

I shall refrain from answering this. ^^

Also what have Virgin Mary got to do with the bible not being put down as one particular book...?

My statement about the Bible text collection put together by bishops and other religious leaders was supposed to show you that you can't consider the Bible as one fixed booked given by God as it was just a collection of stories written down by different people during different times.

[The Messiah]

I am not in the best position to answer that, I am not a Christian but I can randomly throw you a question as well, In fact I have been throwing questions at you since yesterday that you have deliberately ignored.

What questions? To point out a link about the original texts? I'm afraid, I saw the texts in question in hard copy in the archive at the university, so there is no link available. Some people do their research not only by googling, you know

As for this question

You don't really think I am that stupid, do you.?

I shall refrain from answering this. ^^

Also what have Virgin Mary got to do with the bible not being put down as one particular book...?

My statement about the Bible text collection put together by bishops and other religious leaders was supposed to show you that you can't consider the Bible as one fixed booked given by God as it was just a collection of stories written down by different people during different times.

Because a collection of books were put together doesn't mean they can't be message from God, again what matters is the Messages.

A christian will be in the best position to dialogue this with you, because clearly there are some things I debate with Christians as well, reason why I am now Muslim.


I don't believe God is 3 and 1 at thesame time, I don't believe the Supreme being that created everything in the Universe is Isa, I understand that the bible could have possibly under-go manipulation by mixing it up with Roman Idol practices during the time of Constantine.


There is a possibility of that, but I am not here to debate it, my believe like I have pointed out is that there is a supreme being who fashioned the universe and everything thing in it and many things we do know, possibly inside and outside the universe.

[Cruijf]

If god was the only plausible explanation, I'd consider it as a fact until proven otherwise (or a new plausible theory comes to our attention!)

So why are we still arguing? The Islamic explanation is a very plausible one and you haven't presented any alternatives.

[Cruijf]

As a side note, my apologies for the original post because it seems I did in fact misunderstand you.

[•MilanDevil•]

I made a mistake in the first thread, I used the word "prove" a lot, I dont think you can prove God, you can only have evidence supporting his existence, otherwise, if you can prove him, there is no point of faith and heaven or hell.

[kiranr]

I think people were sure god exists and knew that the concept of heaven and hell is true, most of them would go out of their way to get into heaven.

[rwo power]

I think people were sure god exists and knew that the concept of heaven and hell is true, most of them would go out of their way to get into heaven.

IMO it was more the other way around - the concept of heaven and hell was created by the people in power to have a means to frighten the poor people into accepting any hardship as there would be some paradisiac afterlife if they were meek and followed their superiors without complaint.

I mean - you just need to look into the clever setup:

1. if you are an obedient person and follow the rules that are set-uo, you go into some fantastic afterlife, especially if you live under the worst life circumstances.

2. There is some fantastic afterlife awaiting, but you are not allowed to commit suicide to get there earlier, as the people in power need your work power and the money they can tax you while you live as long as possible.

BTW, in a way this makes fanatical suicide bombers almost understandable. They are brainwashed into thinking that they are not actually committing suicide, but they have a faster access to this heavenly paradise as their acts are wanted by god and will be rewarded. As many of these live under bad life circumstances, it is possibly a welcome way to shorten the wait to the imagined better afterlife.

Moreover, the persons they kill don't really matter as the bad ones / unbelievers just would get their punishment by God earlier which is positive, while the innocent good ones don't really matter either as they would just get into heaven earlier.

The whole concept of divine rewards and punishments is extremely clever as

a) they don't cost the religious leaders anything and

b) they cannot be proven anyway as no one actually returns to give a report on the veracity, and

c) people who are taught to faithfully believe in some god have been indoctrinated rules to exactly likewise faithfully believe into the leaders of their religion. (And mind you, in the past the religious leaders and secular leaders mostly shared mutual interests or even were the same person.)

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