Re: God Thread, Pt. III

[Cruijf]

Since you use an external website, allow me:
It is debunked on (amongst others) this website: alisina.org/blog/2010/11/30/moon-split-or-islamic-hoax/

Really? You're going to try to use Ali Sina to refute this? After we already established that the guy is too thick with hatred to be taken seriously?

Need I remind you?

"You are a Satan worshipper. There is no hope for you. You are destined for hell fire because you are not able to think. You are evil, your prophet was evil and you will go to hell."

This from a man that claims to be Atheist

But why stop here?

"As long as Muslims are Muslims they do not deserve to be treated in accordance to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights"

And you trust this guy to think rationally? Because according to him, I should be killed on the spot simply because of my beliefs.

Find some other site, or use your own brain and think of refutations yourself. But stop running and citing Ali Sina or you'll start to look desperate.

EDIT: While I'm at it, let's also mention that Sina sits on the board of an organization that is officially classified as a hate group.

[VivaStPauli]

The article was still right, tho. But okay, let's get a bigot-free link:
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/moon-split-miracle.shtml

Here you go.
Says the same I said, and regarding scientific data, says the same thing the first link said.

[The Sanchez]

"God gave humans enough intelligence"

Wrong, evolution gave human intelligence!

You know the story of Adam and Eve directly contradict evolution? Why would god even mention something that is totally not true in his book if it can be misunderstood by some people?

And What caused Evolution?

The big bang, and what caused the big bang? We don't know!

Thats where God comes into it...

[VivaStPauli]

And What caused Evolution?

The big bang, and what caused the big bang? We don't know!

Thats where God comes into it...

And what caused god?

[ToEy]

The big bang, and what caused the big bang? We don't know!

Thats where God comes into it...

And what caused god?

Not too hard...the God of gods

[VivaStPauli]

What caused the god of gods? :/

[shinigami99]

Well "causing" the big bang is really weird. There is no such thing as "before" the big bang since it is generally agreed that time started then. More specifically, at the precise moment the big bang happened, time moved from t=0. In addition, causality i.e. cause and effect breaks down at the singularity. That does not disprove God, but it renders one unnecessary to the formation of the universe.

As for what happened before evolution, there are several theories out there which can explain abiogenesis (that is, how inorganic chemicals organized themselves to form organic chemicals- and subsequently life). You have to understand how harsh conditions were at the formation of our earth. The presence and abundance of heavy metals and a reducing atmosphere due to electrical activity allowed for catalysed reactions to occur. Eventually, proteins would have formed, and possibly RNA (definitely RNA before DNA). Evolution itself is an ongoing optimization process which depends on the environment and surroundings. It is optimizing the formation of proteins, RNA, DNA, cell matter, by selecting mutations which prove beneficial to a species' life span in a given environment.

[Cruijf]

Evolution itself is an ongoing optimization process which depends on the environment and surroundings. It is optimizing the formation of proteins, RNA, DNA, cell matter, by selecting mutations which prove beneficial to a species' life span in a given environment.

Where did Evolution come from?

[Cruijf]

The article was still right, tho. But okay, let's get a bigot-free link:
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/moon-split-miracle.shtml

Here you go.
Says the same I said, and regarding scientific data, says the same thing the first link said.

Meh... I don't really like to go into this moon split thing because quite a few Muslim scholars actually don't interpret the verse that way.

The verse says: "The hour has drawn near, and the Moon has split."

It could mean that the story cited in the article is true and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) actually did swipe his hand/sword and the moon split, but scholars doubt the authenticity of the narration. Furthermore, many early commentators of the Quran said that this verse was using a very common technique in the Arabic language of saying something that will happen in the future in the past tense to give the listener a vivid image of the action. Since the verse mentions the day of Judgement, many scholars have concluded that this will happen then.

Even if the verse does mean that the moon was split, the article you cited doesn't disprove that possibility, it just refutes the evidence that was provided. If it actually happened, that particular miracle would have been for those who saw it, not for those who would come after and hear about it.

[ToEy]

What caused the god of gods? :/

..the god of god of gods to the power of "the number of times you are gonna repeat that question" and the final entity is caused by beliefs and imagination. thus far most of the evidences to prove such an entity has the mindset of trying to prove it positive to begin with...most evidences quite laughable tbh...science cannot prove god that much is obvious...only one's faith can..but only to oneself

[shinigami99]

Evolution itself is an ongoing optimization process which depends on the environment and surroundings. It is optimizing the formation of proteins, RNA, DNA, cell matter, by selecting mutations which prove beneficial to a species' life span in a given environment.

Where did Evolution come from?

Well a "crude" form of evolution may have existed before life began which focussed on improving chemical replicators. Put simply, organic molecules replicated, possibly due to the inherent stability of binding to each other (in terms of entropy). Stability is a driver of chemical reactions, which is common knowledge in Chemistry. If the products are more stable, the reaction will more likely occur (Thermodynamically speaking).

Indeed, the first cell may have been a by product of this "quest" for stability of the molecules.

[VivaStPauli]

Meh... I don't really like to go into this moon split thing because quite a few Muslim scholars actually don't interpret the verse that way.

Well I certainly didn't bring it up first.

It could mean that the story cited in the article is true and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) actually did swipe his hand/sword and the moon split

Though then someone, somewhere, would've seen the moon split and written about it. Because that'd be a huge f*cking deal, mate.

but scholars doubt the authenticity of the narration.

Yeah, like me. I doubt the authenticity of the entire narration.

Furthermore, many early commentators of the Quran said that this verse was using a very common technique in the Arabic language of saying something that will happen in the future in the past tense to give the listener a vivid image of the action. Since the verse mentions the day of Judgement, many scholars have concluded that this will happen then.

Ah, so the proof of divinity is a miracle, though that hasn't happened yet, it'll only happen in the future, neat.

Even if the verse does mean that the moon was split, the article you cited doesn't disprove that possibility, it just refutes the evidence that was provided. If it actually happened, that particular miracle would have been for those who saw it, not for those who would come after and hear about it.

Lol can you leave more doors open for yourself, please?
What do you even actually believe in if you can abide that vagueness?

So you're basically saying to me:
"If it happened, there doesn't need to be proof, because only those it was meant for, would have seen it, which is why there is no proof. Also, it probably didn't happen. And if it was to happen, it'd probably happen in the future.
So basically it didn't happen.
But you can't prove that it didn't happen, so it might be true."

You can take that stance towards anything. Unicorns, Leprachauns, the g-spot, good white basket ball players, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (praise be upon him), Thetans from Scientology, the flying tea pot in outer space, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu, undead space velociraptors - anything.

Why would you believe in miracles, or god, then, for that matter?

[Bellabong]

How about a different track? I have strong ties to the LGBT community and recent evidence has cropped up that just breaks creationism. Let's not forget that despite Homosexuality having a biological, and thus god-given cause the Abrahamic religions are simply intolerant of it.

Gender Dysphoria (used to be known as Gender Identity disorder but renamed as "suffering" was a more appropriate term than disorder; also known as Transexualism) is a condition where one identifies themselves as the opposite sex. The suicide rate for GD is 40%+ and 60%+ for those abused - pretty alarming stats so it is most definately a "condition" to be taken seriously.

The causes weren't known but revent research that an FtM friend of mine linked me to just completely breaks anything to do with "God created man" for me. I'll try and find the link again but it wont be of much use unless you understand neurological lingo.

Autopsies conducted by the a medical uni in Amsterdam proved that the cause for GD was biological and that transexuals have brains opposite to their born genitals (i.e. Females being both with male brains and males being born with female brains). It then goes a step further, positing that since the brain is not receiving the horomones it expects, this leads to the brain being depressed (and explains the high suicide rate). (I actually do need to find that link again because I'd feel more confident of getting my point across, especially regarding this aspect. )

So this is what bothers me, why would a benevolent being, create some humans who until modern times with hormone therapy and surgery are pretty much forced to suffer from clinical depression throughout their life? Being born poor or in sh*tty situations and some birth defects (incestual ones) can be argued away by human free will playing a factor. The majority of those born with birth "defects" find happiness and don't let their disabilities stop them.

But then you come across GD, a birth "defect" so to speak which makes those born with it pre-destined to suffering. I just can not wrap my head around the idea that a benevolent whatever would allow that to happen.

Then take psychopaths - whilst there's massive negative connotation with the disorder I kinda feel sorry for them. Psychopaths can't feel any emotions at all, whether it be joy, sadness, anger etc. and most importantly guilt.

That's what bothers me the most about religions with God created man creation myths in them. It's the mental disorders preventing people from having an actual choice in things - whether it be homosexuals who are aroused by pheromones of the same sex, transexuals who were born with the wrong brain/body or psychopaths who can't repent for their sins because they can't actually feel sorry.

I know the "If there is a god why is there so much suffering" line of arguements is old and obvious but I hope this puts a new perspective on that line of thought.

[VivaStPauli]

Life's just a test.
The real reward comes after death.
God works in mysterious ways.

See? 3 great answers already

[stevieg8]

"Life's just a test" is the one that really gets me. "God gives us all our difficulties to overcome, and even if I have a natural disposition to steal, I'd have to stop myself, right? So they also have a natural disposition to sin, and just need to overcome it!"

Least compassionate thing I've ever heard.

[rwo power]

I wonder about what divine tests babies are supposed overcome that are born with random debilitating congenital defects of which they die within few days, weeks or months after birth.

[VivaStPauli]

That's my point. IF there is an omnipotent god, there is no morality to be learned for him, he has to be utterly evil, or utterly powerless.

[Cruijf]

On babies dying, they were created as a test to their father/mother/relatives etc. Islam says that they will all be in Paradise, but not through any actions of their own. I don't mean to dehumanize them so don't take this the wrong way, but it's like a dog or a cat being in Paradise.

On disorders, mental conditions etc., every situation is different and I can't and won't make general statements because every human was created with their own tests, strengths, and weaknesses.

However, a basic principle in Islam is that someone who cannot comprehend God's message (ex: a mentally retarded person) is a test for all who see them to thank God for their blessings and they (the disabled person) will not be accountable for their actions.

On the rest, I can't really say, but every human was given enough strength to bear the tests God gave them. So saying suicidals had no choice because they had a pessimistic mental disposition is not a valid argument. They chose to end their lives, and they will be judged by God. I can't judge anyone or say that anyone is going to Hell. As the Quran says, my duty is to convey the message, and God will handle the rest. So I see no contradiction or logical problem with Creationism, once you factor in God's infinitely perfect wisdom and justice. IF you believe in God, then this moral argument doesn't really count, because part of God's existence is His benevolence, compassion, and wisdom. Everyone will be judged fairly, and not a single person will receive an unfair judgement.

Hope I answered all of your collective points

[Cruijf]

So you're basically saying to me:
"If it happened, there doesn't need to be proof, because only those it was meant for, would have seen it, which is why there is no proof. Also, it probably didn't happen. And if it was to happen, it'd probably happen in the future.
So basically it didn't happen.
But you can't prove that it didn't happen, so it might be true."

You can take that stance towards anything. Unicorns, Leprachauns, the g-spot, good white basket ball players, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (praise be upon him), Thetans from Scientology, the flying tea pot in outer space, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu, undead space velociraptors - anything.

Why would you believe in miracles, or god, then, for that matter?

Stop overcomplicating this Viva.

It could have happened or it could not have. This particular incident is not important or essential to my belief in God. If it happened, it was a miracle and a test for those who witnessed it, and there's no point in us discussing it. If it didn't, it didn't.

[rwo power]

On babies dying, they were created as a test to their father/mother/relatives etc. Islam says that they will all be in Paradise, but not through any actions of their own. I don't mean to dehumanize them so don't take this the wrong way, but it's like a dog or a cat being in Paradise.

Well, if they suffered for months until they died, it is a rather cruel fate to create a sentient being just to suffer. Talk about animal experiments, just on human beings this time. And it is not as if it happens once or twice, it happens all over the world, both to stout believers and unbelievers alike.

And saying but these by God abused and tortured creatures, "later will have a great life in Paradise" simply doesn't cut it for me as it is just some nice conjecture again without any proof. I mean, how can you call a God "benign" if "he" causes an innocent being to suffer?

[Bellabong]

Your points kinda make sense but they completely dismiss the effects of clinical depression. Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain with pretty serious consequences and not merely a "pessimistic mental disposition".

On the topic of mental disorders, I've seen real paranoia in action and trust me, there is nothing wise and benevolent about it. In fact, I think it's one of the worst things that can happen to a person because their ability to reason is completely destroyed.

Are you also saying that the Abrahamic God creates people with an unavoidable disposition towards "sin"? That a psychopath with a screwed up upbringing who murders innocents will be judged fairly? Was it Gods plan for those innocents to die and God created a murderous psychopath to fulfill that? If God has a plan that means there's destiny/fate and if there's destiny/fate you eliminate free will, and if there's no free will how can you be judged?

Sorry if free will vs destiny/gods plan has come up before, haven't had a chance to go through the other threads yet.

[Cruijf]

Well, if they suffered for months until they died, it is a rather cruel fate to create a sentient being just to suffer. Talk about animal experiments, just on human beings this time. And it is not as if it happens once or twice, it happens all over the world, both to stout believers and unbelievers alike.

And saying but these by God abused and tortured creatures, "later will have a great life in Paradise" simply doesn't cut it for me as it is just some nice conjecture again without any proof. I mean, how can you call a God "benign" if "he" causes an innocent being to suffer?

You can't cherry pick Rwo. That's why I've been saying this whole suffering/God is immoral argument isn't valid. Because if you believe that God exists, you can't just dismiss the rest. The rest being that every action has perfect wisdom behind it, that everyone will be compensated fairly for their actions, the evil with Hell and the good with Paradise.

If you believe in God, you also believe that he is kind. That he is wise. That he is just, and etc. So you can't say that if God exists he is cruel/immoral because God by definition is kind and morally perfect.

[Cruijf]

Your points kinda make sense but they completely dismiss the effects of clinical depression. Clinical depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain with pretty serious consequences and not merely a "pessimistic mental disposition".

On the topic of mental disorders, I've seen real paranoia in action and trust me, there is nothing wise and benevolent about it. In fact, I think it's one of the worst things that can happen to a person because their ability to reason is completely destroyed.

Are you also saying that the Abrahamic God creates people with an unavoidable disposition towards "sin"? That a psychopath with a screwed up upbringing who murders innocents will be judged fairly? Was it Gods plan for those innocents to die and God created a murderous psychopath to fulfill that? If God has a plan that means there's destiny/fate and if there's destiny/fate you eliminate free will, and if there's no free will how can you be judged?

Sorry if free will vs destiny/gods plan has come up before, haven't had a chance to go through the other threads yet.

God created humans. God gave every single mentally stable human being the power to choose our actions and determine what is right and what is wrong. That's it. If I decide to kill someone, that was my decision, not God's.

When we mention destiny or God's plan, we mention it in the context that God decreed certain things for me, such a my mental health, or my financial situation. But one of the most fundamental concepts of Theology is that our actions are our own actions. I chose to write this response, and depending on my intentions and my effort, I will be rewarded accordingly.

As for mental illness, psychopaths, etc, God will compensate everyone accordingly. Again, you don't know the entire situation for any one person. God does. So if you believe in God, you believe that every human being, from the highest and most intellectual thinkers to the mentally retarded, will be judged and compensated fairly.

[rwo power]

Well, if they suffered for months until they died, it is a rather cruel fate to create a sentient being just to suffer. Talk about animal experiments, just on human beings this time. And it is not as if it happens once or twice, it happens all over the world, both to stout believers and unbelievers alike.

And saying but these by God abused and tortured creatures, "later will have a great life in Paradise" simply doesn't cut it for me as it is just some nice conjecture again without any proof. I mean, how can you call a God "benign" if "he" causes an innocent being to suffer?

You can't cherry pick Rwo. That's why I've been saying this whole suffering/God is immoral argument isn't valid. Because if you believe that God exists, you can't just dismiss the rest. The rest being that every action has perfect wisdom behind it, that everyone will be compensated fairly for their actions, the evil with Hell and the good with Paradise.

If you believe in God, you also believe that he is kind. That he is wise. That he is just, and etc. So you can't say that if God exists he is cruel/immoral because God by definition is kind and morally perfect.

And why do you cherry pick now? You believe he is kind despite the obvious cruelty "he" inflict on innocents. That doesn't add up for me.

If you have a human guy who tortures babies but he is still good to his family, that means he is in fact a good an wise person? Sounds legit.

[Cruijf]

If you have a human guy who tortures babies but he is still good to his family, that means he is in fact a good an wise person? Sounds legit.

Doesnt work and you know it.

God, BY DEFINITION, is Infinitely and perfectly wise, kind, just and so on.

So you can't say, "God might exist but he's evil anyway" because part of the definition of God is His kindness and goodness. Believing in God isn't believing that an all-powerful being created the universe. Believing in God is believing that an all-powerful, perfectly wise, kind, and just being created the universe and will judge and reward us all fairly.

It's part of the package mate. That's why I've always dismissed people that say, "I believe in God, but he's evil so I won't follow him." As long as you believe in the Abrahamic God, that's an impossibility.

[stevieg8]

If you have a human guy who tortures babies but he is still good to his family, that means he is in fact a good an wise person? Sounds legit.

Doesnt work and you know it.

God, BY DEFINITION, is Infinitely and perfectly wise, kind, just and so on.

So you can't say, "God might exist but he's evil anyway" because part of the definition of God is His kindness and goodness. Believing in God isn't believing that an all-powerful being created the universe. Believing in God is believing that an all-powerful, perfectly wise, kind, and just being created the universe and will judge and reward us all fairly.

It's part of the package mate. That's why I've always dismissed people that say, "I believe in God, but he's evil so I won't follow him." As long as you believe in the Abrahamic God, that's an impossibility.

Ok, so God is by definition benevolent. (This is only your definition, for the record, but I'll run with it).

Seeing as how you haven't responded to the content of RWO's posts, let's try a syllogism:

Premises:
God, by defintion, is benevolent.
Benevolent, by definition, means acting in a manner which treats people well and kindly, and avoiding actions which do the opposite.
God, by definition, is omnipotent.
Omnipotent, by definition, means complete and universal control over things that happen.
Terrible things happen in this world to people who have not been alive long enough to "deserve" it for any action of their own.

Conclusion:
God does not exist.

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